Discuss the World Cup 2010: England vs. USA

[BobG]

USA - Algeria (2-0)
Slovenia - England (1-1)
Australia - Serbia (0-1)
Ghana - Germany (0-3)

 

[zomgwtf]

ugh think I'm too late to submit :(

Oh welll
USA - Algeria (2-0)
Slovenia - England (1-2)
Australia - Serbia (1-1)
Ghana - Germany (0-0)

GO BLACKSTARSSSS. Man I really hope they can pull off a tie. All they need to do is concentrate on defense and prevent Germany from scoring. If Serbia ties Australia, which I think is likely, and Ghana loses by 1 point only then Ghana still goes on because Ghana took more points from Serbia.. . Hopefully it comes down to that so I can rub it in all my friends faces haha.

 

[D H]

Oh shoot! Missed the deadline!

Since this doesn't count ...

USA - Algeria (2-0)
Slovenia - England (2-1)
Australia - Serbia (1-0)
Ghana - Germany (0-1)

 

[Monique]

Way to go USA! Keep that score!

 

[Monique]

Congrats! And that means that I've accumulated a huge amount of points in my work's football pool

 

[estro]

Congrats to the US team, well deserved place in the 1/8 finals.

 

[Evo]

This is part of a schedule that Kurdt made for the pub.

 

[D H]

This is part of a schedule that Kurdt made for the pub.

I'm looking at that schedule as comprising top-left, top-right, bottom-left and bottom-right sets of teams that feed into the two semifinal games. Assuming Germany and Serbia win this afternoon, the US will have landed in what will arguably be the softest of those quadrants. Match 49 is Uruguay v South Korea, and those predicted results will make match 50 be USA v Serbia. We have a somewhat reasonable chance to advance to the semifinals! Thinking we could go further than that is wishful thinking because the bottom left quadrant looks to be nasty. I foresee Netherlands v Italy in match 53 and Brazil v Spain in match 54.

 

[Monique]

Just check the calender: http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/calendar.html

 

[Gokul43201]

Can someone explain what puts the USA ahead of England in the standings? They have the same number of points, drew against each other and have the same goal differential (+1). So what measure is used to break the tie and decide that the US plays 2D and England plays 1D?

 

[Monique]

USA scored 4 goals in total, England only 2. That actually messed up my prediction, I had England advancing as number 1 and USA as number 2.. oh well.

 

[Gokul43201]

USA scored 4 goals in total, England only 2. That actually messed up my prediction, I had England advancing as number 1 and USA as number 2.. oh well.

So that's what they use to break the tie - goals for? That seems to suggest that offense is more important than defense. Oh well. I guess any randomly selected metric is a fair metric so long as all the teams know about it in advance.

 

[Monique]

After the number of points accumulated, the goal differential is the first tiebreaker, the total number of goals scored is the next tiebreaker. If that doesn't give an answer, they look at the result between the teams. If that doesn't give an answer they flip a coin

 

[cristo]

Assuming Germany and Serbia win this afternoon, the US will have landed in what will arguably be the softest of those quadrants.

Tell me about it: that was meant to be our draw. Still, England looked a bit better today and have some chance of advancing at least beyond the Germany game.

 

[Monique]

Thursday:

Slovakia - Italy (0 - 1)
Paraguay - New Zealand (2 - 0)
Denmark - Japan (1 - 0)
Cameroon - Netherlands (0 - 1)

 

[Dadface]

Slovakia-Italy(0,1)
Paraguay-New Zealand(0,1)
Denmark,Japan(1,1)
Cameroon-Netherlands(1,2)

 

[zomgwtf]

GOOD JOB BLACKSTARS. .

Anyways.

For tomorrow:
Slovakia - Italy (0-1)
Paraguay - New Zealand (1-1)
Denmark - Japan (0-1)
Cameroon - Netherlands (1-2)

 

[cristo]

Paraguay - New Zealand (2 - 0)
Slovakia - Italy (0 - 1)
Cameroon - Netherlands (0 - 2)
Denmark - Japan (1 - 1)

 

[BobG]

Slovakia - Italy (0 - 1)
Paraguay - New Zealand (2 - 0)
Denmark - Japan (0 - 1)
Cameroon - Netherlands (0 - 3)

 

[BobG]

Tell me about it: that was meant to be our draw. Still, England looked a bit better today and have some chance of advancing at least beyond the Germany game.

Argentina, Mexico, Germany, and England

That's the bracket of death.

Actually, the USA might have a tough time against Uruguay. But, surely a South American team has to lose in this tournament eventually. (Won't be tomorrow, though.)

 

[cristo]

Argentina, Mexico, Germany, and England

That's the bracket of death.

Yup, we should have put 3 or 4 past Slovenia and then would not have been in this mess. To be honest, after the way we performed in the last 10 minutes running into the corner to try and waste time, I don't think we deserve to advance much further. Any team desperately trying to hold on to a 1-0 win against a decidedly poor Slovenia side are not destined to be world champions! But still, you never know what will happen: maybe we'll see an England - Brasil final in a few week's time!

 

[Gokul43201]

After the number of points accumulated, the goal differential is the first tiebreaker, the total number of goals scored is the next tiebreaker. If that doesn't give an answer, they look at the result between the teams. If that doesn't give an answer they flip a coin

Thanks for the info, Monique. I would have thought that they would use the head-to-head result before the goals scored. I wonder if there's ever been a team that was eliminated by a coin toss - that would really suck!

 

[BobG]

Thanks for the info, Monique. I would have thought that they would use the head-to-head result before the goals scored. I wonder if there's ever been a team that was eliminated by a coin toss - that would really suck!

Close. In 1990, second place in group play between Netherlands and Ireland was decided by a coin toss. In 1990, there were 24 teams and 6 groups, so the top 4 third place teams advanced, including the Netherlands.

Using goal differential is a better measure than head to head. One measures what kind of tournament a team is having while the other measures what kind of day a team had. Usually, anyway. Portugal's running up a 7-0 score on a NK team that just didn't seem to care any more kind of hurts that idea, but that doesn't happen very often.

I'm not too keen on using total goals over head to head, though.

That Portugal-NK game brings back bad memories of coaching youth soccer. The team we were supposed to play wanted to reschedule since a Saturday school activity was going to leave them with only 10 players. I agreed to reschedule and took care of the details. The scheduler told me not to do it. Their scheduling problems were their problems and if I did do it, I'd have to live with whatever happened.

I did it anyway. The fields were unplayable on the make-up date due to heavy rain. There was no choice on the date for the make-up to the make-up date. And, unfortunately, the fortunes had turned and I could only field 9 players for the game.

We hung in there, only trailing 2-0 nothing at half, and only 3-0 nothing with about 10 minutes to go. They rang up 7 goals in the last 10 minutes - two or three just on goal kicks that were barely clearing the penalty area. You can believe I remembered that coach for a while.

 

[Gokul43201]

Using goal differential is a better measure than head to head.

Agreed. I was talking about the "goals for" being used as a tie breaker before the head-to-head result, which seems somewhat arbitrary (and partially redundant).

Italia 90 was the only World Cup that I watched almost in its entirety. Don't recall the coin toss decision though.

 

[D H]

Paraguay - New Zealand (1 - 0)
Slovakia - Italy (0 - 1)
Cameroon - Netherlands (0 - 1)
Denmark - Japan (1 - 0)

 

[D H]

Agreed. I was talking about the "goals for" being used as a tie breaker before the head-to-head result, which seems somewhat arbitrary (and partially redundant).

Yes, it's somewhat arbitrary. Tie-breaker rules, regardless of the sport, are always a bit arbitrary. That goal differential comes first is essentially saying that, for example, a 2-0 win is bigger than a 4-3 win. Goals for says that the 4-3 win is bigger than the 2-0 win.

Some competitions use "least goals against" instead of "most goals for" as the second tie-breaker. The rationale in using "least goals against" is that soccer is supposed to be a beautiful game. A 4-3 win indicates sloppy play by both teams. There is a problem with using "least goals against" as a tie-breaker at the professional level. It tends to encourage overly defensive play, and that in turn encourages viewers to switch the TV channel to something else. Heaven forbid!

 

[Kurdt]

Wow. Bye bye Italy. That was a cracking match.

 

[BobG]

What a shocker! Both finalists from 2006 out in the first round.

 

[Borg]

[STRIKE]Predictions[/STRIKE] Guesses for 6/25:

North Korea - Ivory Coast (0 - 3)
Portugal - Brazil (2 - 2)
Switzerland - Honduras (2 - 1)
Chile - Spain (1 - 0)

 

[BobG]

North Korea - Ivory Coast (1-2)
Portugal - Brazil (1-2)
Switzerland - Honduras (0-1)
Chile - Spain (1-1)

 

[cristo]

North Korea - Ivory Coast (1-2)
Portugal - Brazil (1-4)
Switzerland - Honduras (2-0)
Chile - Spain (1-3)

 

[zomgwtf]

North Korea - Ivory Coast (0-1)
Portugal - Brazil (1-2)
Switzerland - Honduras (1-0)
Chile - Spain (1-3)

 

[Dadface]

North korea-Ivory Coast(1,1)
Portugal-Brazil(1,2)
Switzerland-Honduras(0,0)
Chile-Spain(0,1)

 

[Monique]

North Korea - Ivory Coast (0 - 2)
Portugal - Brazil (0 - 1)
Switzerland - Honduras (1 - 0)
Chile - Spain (0 - 1)

For the weekend:

(2 - 0) Uruguay - S. Korea
(2 - 0) USA - Ghana

(2 - 0) Germany - England
(1 - 0) Argentina - Mexico

 

[Gokul43201]

Unable to do the scoring tables, and likely will not get a chance till Monday. Would be good if someone else did a scoring update sometime over the next day or two.

 

[cristo]

Results 22nd, 23rd, 24th:

France 1-2 South Africa
Mexico 0-1 Uruguay
Greece 0-2 Argentina
Nigeria 2-2 South Korea

USA 1-0 Algeria
Slovenia 0-1 England
Australia 2-1 Serbia
Ghana 0-1 Germany

Paraguay 0-0 New Zealand
Slovakia 3-2 Italy
Cameroon 1-2 Netherlands
Denmark 1-3 Japan

Scoring Table (This time ranked by cumulative score)

Member      June 22-23-24 Score      Cumulative Score
-----------------------------------------------------
Monique           2-5-1                   26
D H               2-L-1                   24
cristo            2-3-1                   23
Bob               1-2-2                   21
zomgwtf           1-L-3                   16
estro             4-o-o                   16
Dadface           o-2-1                   14
Borg              2-3-o                   09
lewdtenant        o-o-o                   03

 

[cristo]

Before the knockout stages start, can we clarify the point scoring. Are the predictions based on 90 minutes of play (as any bets would be), or does extra time/pens count? If the latter, does a shootout win count as one goal, thus meaning a 0-0 draw would, after a shootout, have 1-0 as the effective score?

 

[zomgwtf]

Cristo, my score for the final week shuold be 4 I think. Bonus point for getting Cameroon and Netherlands right.

 

[zomgwtf]

Wow, Brazil - Portugal has been quite a boring game in my opinion. Probably because Robinho and Kaka are missing from this game, but still. I kind of miss the old flair that Brazil used to have and brought to the table.

 

[zomgwtf]

Uruguay - S. Korea (1-0)
USA - Ghana (1-2)
Germany - England (2-1)
Argentina - Mexico (1-0)

These are would be final scores. I don't know how we're doing the knock out rounds yet... do we put draws and if they draw after 90minutes then we get it? Or how's this work.

 

[Dadface]

Uruguay-S Korea(1,0)
USA-Ghana(1,1)

Germany-England(0,3)
Argentina-Mexico(3,0)

 

[Borg]

Uruguay - South Korea (2 - 1)
USA - Ghana (1 - 0)

Germany - England (0 - 1)
Argentina - Mexico (2 - 0)

I have a dumb question. At what point in the playoffs do games not end in ties?

 

[Dembadon]

Wow, Brazil - Portugal has been quite a boring game in my opinion. Probably because Robinho and Kaka are missing from this game, but still. I kind of miss the old flair that Brazil used to have and brought to the table.

It was boring because neither team needed a win. Why risk yellows/injuries when both teams could play conservatively and still advance?

 

[Dembadon]

...
These are would be final scores. I don't know how we're doing the knock out rounds yet... do we put draws and if they draw after 90minutes then we get it? Or how's this work.

...
I have a dumb question. At what point in the playoffs do games not end in ties?

Taken from http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/56/42/69/fifawcsouthafrica2010inhalt_e.pdf" :

-The Round of 16

If, after 90 minutes, a match ends in a draw, extra time of two periods of
15 minutes each will be played. If the score is level after extra time, penalty
kicks will be taken to determine the winner in accordance with the procedure
described in the Laws of the Game.

 

[BobG]

Uruguay - S. Korea (2-1)
USA - Ghana (2-0)
Germany - England (1-0)
Argentina - Mexico (2-0)

 

[zomgwtf]

Taken from http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/56/42/69/fifawcsouthafrica2010inhalt_e.pdf" :

-The Round of 16

That doesn't answer my question. Are we counting only what happens after the regulation time or is it the full game that we are considering? Many betting places go by what happens during regulation. So a draw is still possible to bet on, are we doing that for this>?

 

[cristo]

That doesn't answer my question. Are we counting only what happens after the regulation time or is it the full game that we are considering? Many betting places go by what happens during regulation. So a draw is still possible to bet on, are we doing that for this>?

I think we should predict the results for after 90 minutes of play. Here are my predictions (though too late for today!)

Uruguay - S. Korea (0-1)
USA - Ghana (0-1)
Germany - England (1-1)
Argentina - Mexico (3-0)

England Germany will go to a shootout, and we'll lose (as per usual).

 

[BobG]

Speaking of shootouts, no more paradinhas. The shooter can feint during the run-up, but once at the ball, his shot has to be a continuous motion. (South Americans are probably more familiar with this shot than Europeans.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxBnZKx4sT4

 

[D H]

I think we should predict the results for after 90 minutes of play.

My two bits: There are 48 games in the group stage and only 16 in the knockouts. This makes our stats rather lopsided; the total possible score for the group stage is three times that of the total possible score for the knockout stage.

Here's the rub: The knockout stage is where the World Cup gets down to business. We ought to weigh the knockout stage more than we do. My suggestion for doing so:

First 90 minutes, including injury time:
For predicting the winner in regular time: 2 points, +4 points for predicting the exact score.
For predicting a tie: 1 point, +1 point for predicting the exact score.

Overtime:
For predicting the winner in overtime: 2 points, +2 points for predicting the exact score.
For predicting a tie: 1 point, +1 point for predicting the exact score.
Note: You can only predict an overtime outcome if you predict a tie in the first 90.

Kicks from the mark:
For predicting the winner: 1 point, +1 point for predicting the exact score.
Note: You can only predict a shootout outcome if you predict a tie in the first 90 and in overtime.The above scheme yields a total of six PF points per knockout stage game, so there are 96 total points for the knockout stage. That is same total as that for the group stage (as opposed to a third), and let's us predict the real outcome of the game.

 

[D H]

I'm too late for today's games (again). For tomorrow,

Germany - England (2-1) in regular time
Argentina - Mexico (2-0) in regular time