Discussing Matter in the Universe: R.E.E's, Island of Stability & Exotic Matter

[TrueGormagon]

Greetings, I am interested in creating a thread dedicated to the discussion of the uses of currently discovered and used and theorized/dreamed of types of matter in our universe. This includes R.E.E's (Rare Earth elements, like Neodymium or Yttrium http://www.rareelementresources.com/rare-earth-elements#.VG44EjTF-So ), Island of stability elements, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_stability ) and types of exotic matter ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter ) article links provided for those unfamiliar with these subjects.

Note, well this thread is tuned towards real science being used to hypothesize and theorize and explain, science fiction and fantasy materials are allowed to be discussed. For instance what awoke my fascination with this general subject of discussion was naquadah's appearent greater energy release then E=mC^ , or triniums strength and lightness, both from Stargate, and the seemingly impossibly hard/tough tritanium and duranium from Star Trek, materials capable of resisting weapons that can disintegrate humanoids instantly. (Although obviously the writers of almost all Scifi shows have no idea about science, engineering or consistency.) So, feel free to bring things like that up on the thread, but also try not to derail a current discussion please.

The first topic of discussion I would like to table is on a particularly interesting subject to myself, the Island of Stability and its potentials for human technology. Could there really be an element like naquadah, or a room temperature super conductor like the mineral Unobtanium? (Avatar)Edit *I wondered if this would be moved to this section of the forum, I would not have moved it myself (I have been staff on sites before) I chose the previous category because in my mind it fit more as this is not a pure Scifi discussion.*

 

[mfb]

naquadah: If energy conservation is violated at all, it is violated by a process, not by a material. So you would need some weird fundamental process that happens in a specific material only. Uhm... tricky.

Room-temperature superconductors: certainly possible. High-temperature superconductors are not well understood, and there could be another class waiting for our discovery. I think it is unlikely that you need a new element for that, however.

Practical applications for the island of stability would surprise me. Those elements are probably all short-living and have to be produced atom by atom (at least currently).

materials capable of resisting weapons that can disintegrate humanoids instantly

Steel?

 

[TrueGormagon]

Steel?

Well, I should have included a better example. Supposedly a hand phaser on ten can cut through 100 meters of metamorphic rock instantly I believe, but has virtually no effect on a door made of duranium.

 

[mfb]

Now we are at science fiction...
For lasers: Mirrors.

 

[TrueGormagon]

Now we are at science fiction...
For lasers: Mirrors.

Reflective materials offer little protection at close ranges especially for the mass requirement. For pulsed beams, the intensity gets so high that reflectivity doesn't matter much - the beam just rips electrons off any surface it encounters. Even at lower intensities, the beam can rapidly heat a reflective surface, pitting it or scorching it (and thus reducing its reflectivity) or flashing it to plasma (at which point the beam would heat the plasma, and the plasma would heat the surface, bypassing the reflectivity). At the limit of laser engagement range in space, meaning extreme range, the beam has spread out enough that reflective materials may be useful. But then what about when they get closer? In short, reflective armor is a pipe dream.Anyways, what about these fascinating articles I found on what became one of my favorite websites that I am seeking to make more popular as a plausible type of matter in real science, namely magmatter a type of exotic matter.

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/46411e9d02b29
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48572566653b6
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591

 

[vemvare]

The problem with pulsed laser weapons is that (as far as I know), they always suffer "blooming" of the air at a high enough intensity, they simply turn it into plasma which furthter absorbs more light, meaning that for each frequency and medium there is a hard limit on how much intensity a beam can have, something that can probably be lowered for defensive purposed by smoke, dust, et cetera.

In vacuum, however, laser is king.

 

[TrueGormagon]

The problem with pulsed laser weapons is that (as far as I know), they always suffer "blooming" of the air at a high enough intensity, they simply turn it into plasma which furthter absorbs more light, meaning that for each frequency and medium there is a hard limit on how much intensity a beam can have, something that can probably be lowered for defensive purposed by smoke, dust, et cetera.

In vacuum, however, laser is king.

Yup, in atmosphere, lasers and particle beams lose energy over distance as they ionize the air. In vacuum, lasers dominate for long range combat. In atmosphere, near infrared and visible spectrum are best, well shorter wavelengths are especially absorbed. Under water, green is best I do believe. In space, ultraviolet or X-ray would be best for heavy duty high energy long range weapons. (Or Gamma if one could efficiently and consistently harness and focus gamma rays)

Reflective materials would have no real benefit against lasers in the high kilowatt and megawatt pulse intensity.

In any case, speaking of gamma rays, the theoretical conversion technology I gave a link to based on magmatter theory would enable the production of gamma beam weapons, devastating weapons.

 

[mfb]

Anyways, what about these fascinating articles I found on what became one of my favorite websites that I am seeking to make more popular as a plausible type of matter in real science, namely magmatter a type of exotic matter.

Now the thread went to pure science fiction - and far away from actual science. As much plausible as "and then we use magic to levitate this object".

 

[GTOM]

In vacuum, lasers still scatter after a distance, so kinetics might still can have their role.

Since it is SF already, what about the null-element of Mass Effect, produced by neutron stars? Is there any chance that can be stabil? (Well, neutrons don't repel each other.) Or build a container from exotic particles (quarks, dark matter?), that could contain antimatter for example?

That island of stability sounds interesting, i wondered why doesn't technecium have a stabil isotope (but i guess it would be too hard for explain to me...)

 

[TrueGormagon]

Now the thread went to pure science fiction - and far away from actual science. As much plausible as "and then we use magic to levitate this object".

Actually not really, if you take the time to read and study the articles they are quite interesting. Many devices and aspects of science started out as theories, which could be classified as fictions until proven true.

Or build a container from exotic particles (quarks, dark matter?), that could contain antimatter for example?

Containing anti matter, for instance anti protons, is actually fairly straight forward using magnetic fields. If something go's wrong with my anti matter magnetic containment field, I would likely find out for sure if there really is an after life or not.

However, well there are theoretical ways to generate substantial amounts of anti matter relatively cheap it is much more dangerous then controlled sustained fusion. It could be used an effective catalyst in a fusion reaction.

Amat beam weapons are not particularly worth the effect to make, the extra energy your getting from the m/a annihilation would not really improve your destructive potential because it will be easy enough to destroy a ship with more conventional weapons, like proton beams or rail guns which would be much safer and cheaper energy wise.

We know virtually nothing about dark matter or dark energy last I heard. Speculation would be pretty much completely wild. It seems they have space warping gravitational effects given our observations of the universe.

Null element? Element zero you mean? Something akin to it could potentially exist yes.

 

[mfb]

Actually not really, if you take the time to read and study the articles they are quite interesting.

I read the first article. Science fiction is as hard as its weakest part. It got weak at the massless magnetic monopoles. I'm fine with magnetic monopoles - but why do they write "massless"? This is both unnecessary (at least within the article) and completely wrong. A particle with a magnetic charge would have a mass just based on this charge - even if it does not have other contributions.
It might look like a detail, but it shows the writers are not interested in keeping it realistic.

Then we get some technobabble and unclear physical processes - well, that's okay, at least no clear violation of physical laws.

If you can "somehow" make baryons decay to gamma rays and reflect them with "nearly 100% efficiency", where is the point in doing that in a fusion vessel, which has completely different requirements for the walls, magnetic fields and so on?

Many devices and aspects of science started out as theories, which could be classified as fictions until proven true.

Yes, but so far no single device violated any accepted fundamental theory. They all just put together known physics in new ways.

When powered down, the monopoles are magnetically collected and stored until the next time the drive is in operation.

Wait, are they short-living or not? What does "short-living" even mean for massless particles?

However, well there are theoretical ways to generate substantial amounts of anti matter relatively cheap

How?

It seems they have space warping gravitational effects given our observations of the universe.

Yes, as every energy has in General Relativity, including the visible mass.

In vacuum, lasers dominate for long range combat.

0 out of 0 wars in space were fought with lasers.

 

[GTOM]

"0 out of 0 wars in space were fought with lasers."

Well, they did shot down satellites... with missiles. And developing hunter satellite and military space plane.

 

[TrueGormagon]

I read the first article. Science fiction is as hard as its weakest part. It got weak at the massless magnetic monopoles. I'm fine with magnetic monopoles - but why do they write "massless"? This is both unnecessary (at least within the article) and completely wrong. A particle with a magnetic charge would have a mass just based on this charge - even if it does not have other contributions.
It might look like a detail, but it shows the writers are not interested in keeping it realistic.

Assuming all we know about the universe is correct in any case, which is all we can work with its true, BUT this is small potatoes. Just take out the 'massless' part. Actually, I do not think they are 'massless' at all, just with no mass worth mentioning is what they mean.

Then we get some technobabble and unclear physical processes - well, that's okay, at least no clear violation of physical laws.

Mhm.

If you can "somehow" make baryons decay to gamma rays and reflect them with "nearly 100% efficiency", where is the point in doing that in a fusion vessel, which has completely different requirements for the walls, magnetic fields and so on?

IDK if its a language barrier or something but I am unclear as to what you are saying here.

Its a hybrid system of enhanced highly efficient fusion propulsion that advances over time. Currently, projected efficiency's of fusion drives would be good to get 10%.

Yes, but so far no single device violated any accepted fundamental theory. They all just put together known physics in new ways.

Wait, are they short-living or not? What does "short-living" even mean for massless particles?

Exactly.

Perhaps 'decaying' or 'transmuting' back into the particle they were previously. Perhaps their is a way to store them short term, or at least store the particles they decay back into to recycle them through the conversion drive.

How?

Collecting it from Earths own magnetic belt, or the belt of Saturn, Jupiter, or our Sun. Using facilities on or in orbit of Mercury or close to the sun that use the vast amounts of solar energy to power amat generation, one of amats biggest issues is the inefficiency of using our power to create the amat in the first place. Transporting and storing it would be the bigger issue.

0 out of 0 wars in space were fought with lasers.

I'll add in 'Lasers will likely dominate the battle field in future space wars for extreme and long range engagements.'

 

[mfb]

Its a hybrid system of enhanced highly efficient fusion propulsion that advances over time. Currently, projected efficiency's of fusion drives would be good to get 10%.

Even less (in terms of energy released per total energy in the fuel). But heating a fusion plasma with gamma rays is inefficient. And if you want to go for maximal fuel efficiency ("100%" as described there), you do not use fusion anyway.

Collecting it from Earths own magnetic belt, or the belt of Saturn, Jupiter, or our Sun.

There are small amounts of positrons without any concept how to collect them. The antiprotons are the hard part.

one of amats biggest issues is the inefficiency of using our power to create the amat in the first place.

Yes. And we are talking about an efficiency of 0.00001% or whatever (did not count the zeros, probably an optimistic number) for current accelerators.

I'll add in 'Lasers will likely dominate the battle field in future space wars for extreme and long range engagements.'

Based on what?

 

[TrueGormagon]

Even less (in terms of energy released per total energy in the fuel). But heating a fusion plasma with gamma rays is inefficient. And if you want to go for maximal fuel efficiency ("100%" as described there), you do not use fusion anyway.

Well its not generic fusion.

There are small amounts of positrons without any concept how to collect them. The antiprotons are the hard part.

Actually there are concepts to collect the generated antimatter in magnetic belts, mag scoops.

Yes. And we are talking about an efficiency of 0.00001% or whatever (did not count the zeros, probably an optimistic number) for current accelerators.

Good thing the suns got a lot of free power being emitted constantly huh? UNLEASH THE POWER OF THE SUN

Our technology will also advance, we can bet generating amat will become more efficient especially with nigh unlimited free solar energy now available.

Granted, establishing the infrastructure would cost mega bucks, assuming space will lack any substantial starting infrastructure or that the concept of money even still exists.

Based on what?

What we know about lasers for the most part. Yes right now they are very inefficient and hopelessly high tech compared to simple kinetic weapons or the more advanced rail cannons for example, but we are working on them. The U.S has them now actually, and has successfully tested it. And a rail cannon though it can only fire once before being reset.

Laser range, the fact it travels at the speed of light obviously, and kill potential even in high kilowatt pulse ranges of half a second or less for a duration of 4-5 pulses given how thin a spacecraft s hull will be and the propellant mass.

A rail cannon can get a projected max of 13-16 km per sec with very high technology, as in vaporized plasma rails technology. Coil guns can get more if they have many segments making them longer. Well fast, compared to SOL its nothing. As long as the lasers computerized targeting system is good enough, in ranges of one light second or less your almost guaranteed hit will probably be a kill. In close range, space type point blank, kinetic weapons will dominate for simplicity.

Also, unless we figure out a more efficient way to dispose of waste heat, any vessel or satellite armed with energy weapons will have large, vulnerable heat radiators.

 

[vemvare]

Orions arm ≠ reality, its "magmatter" f.ex can't be described as "as a plausible type of matter in real science". They spin quite obscure scientific theories into unobtainiums and handwavetech just like any sci-fi franchise, though they do tend to be more logically consistent than f,.ex TV-shows or movies.

Lasers do disperse in vacuum, but at light second ranges, which corresponds to kinetic weapons being impractically slow, or very, very advanced, which would be odd to happen without ships also being capable of getting out of the way.

RT = 0.61 * D * L / RL

where:

• RT = beam radius at target (m)
• D = distance from laser emitter to target (m)
• L = wavelength of laser beam (m, see table below)
• RL = radius of laser lens or reflector (m)

Perhaps we should have a more general threads about space warfare?

 

[GTOM]

Perhaps we should have a more general threads about space warfare?

I already have two of them. (Not that i were unbiased.) I consider beam diameter to be cm at most to be efficient against reflective armor.

 

[vemvare]

It doesn't need to be anywhere near as focused as that, no mirror is perfect. Dielectric mirrors come close, but they are designed for a narrow range of frequencies and incidence angles close to 0. Any defect (or any spot where the reflective layer has been burned off), and the entire exposed area rapidly loses its protection.

To protect against lasers, I'd just pump in tons of water to the exposed area as fast as possible, perhaps with graphite in it if some kind of deposition can be achieved.

 

[mfb]

Actually there are concepts to collect the generated antimatter in magnetic belts, mag scoops.

Yes, there is science fiction for nearly everything.

Good thing the suns got a lot of free power being emitted constantly huh?

The energy is free, collecting and using it is not.

Our technology will also advance, we can bet generating amat will become more efficient especially with nigh unlimited free solar energy now available.

Sure. That does not mean it would be easy or cheap.

Granted, establishing the infrastructure would cost mega bucks, assuming space will lack any substantial starting infrastructure or that the concept of money even still exists.

This is independent of the concept of money. It needs working power (not necessarily human, but working power that could also get used for other projects), both for construction and maintenance.

given how thin a spacecraft s hull will be

If lasers would be the most used weapon, for sure spacecraft s would be designed for this threat.

A rail cannon can get a projected max of 13-16 km per sec with very high technology, as in vaporized plasma rails technology. [...] in ranges of one light second or less your almost guaranteed hit will probably be a kill

Science fiction is not a source for claims like that.

 

[GTOM]

It doesn't need to be anywhere near as focused as that, no mirror is perfect. Dielectric mirrors come close, but they are designed for a narrow range of frequencies and incidence angles close to 0. Any defect (or any spot where the reflective layer has been burned off), and the entire exposed area rapidly loses its protection.

To protect against lasers, I'd just pump in tons of water to the exposed area as fast as possible, perhaps with graphite in it if some kind of deposition can be achieved.

Well, i also speculated about (Legend of Galactic Heroes like) liquid armor, if reflective armor and spinning to prevent hit the same location twice isn't enough.

Well, reflective armor can also have multiple thin layers, if one is damaged, there are still ten others intact. Spaced armor is also good against small fast projectiles.

 

[TrueGormagon]

Yes, there is science fiction for nearly everything.

Er, its not Scifi. Antimatter harvesting is a real concept being looked into by NASA.

The energy is free, collecting and using it is not.

Huh?

Sure. That does not mean it would be easy or cheap.

Neither was owning a car or flight. Now thousands of flights happen everyday and hundreds of millions of cars exist.

This is independent of the concept of money. It needs working power (not necessarily human, but working power that could also get used for other projects), both for construction and maintenance.

Robots. Faster, better, easier to keep 'alive'. We build the structure or its components in orbit, then launch it to the desired location near good ol Sol. Drones assemble it.

If lasers would be the most used weapon, for sure spacecraft s would be designed for this threat.

Sure, but there is only so much you can do. I also never said the most used, what I said was the most dominant long/extreme range weapon.

Armor = mass. Mass = Propellant expended to maneuver. Propellant exhausted = Dead.

There are shields of course, but even those are mass intense and reliant on superior operating frequencies to be effective.

Science fiction is not a source for claims like that.

Actually its from an Engineer and a military concept article for advanced rail guns I met/read a few years back. Why do you assume all I use is scifi reference so much?

 

[vemvare]

Well, i also speculated about (Legend of Galactic Heroes like) liquid armor, if reflective armor and spinning to prevent hit the same location twice isn't enough.

Well, reflective armor can also have multiple thin layers, if one is damaged, there are still ten others intact. Spaced armor is also good against small fast projectiles.

Multiple reflective layers wouldn't be a good idea, the massive concentrated heat once the mirror breaks down the expanding hot gas will surely affect underlying layers, also like I said it is difficult if not impossible to build a mirror that could reflect enough of a laser with, say, two different frequencies.

At a "diamond level hardness" ("we know it can be done") pumping in a coolant is really the only way! Of course, at decreasing realism more and more "magic" can be used.

Concerning antimatter, the Brillouin limit really doesn't allow much density to a charged antimatter storage device (penning trap). Cold neutral magnetic offers orders of magnitude higher density, but at the price of the whole thing being suicidally unstable, the forces involved at reachable magnetic field strengths and assuming antihydrogen are really not that impressive. I wish there was a reasonable way to acquire Anti-iron, now that would be something...

 

[mfb]

Er, its not Scifi. Antimatter harvesting is a real concept being looked into by NASA.

Warp drives are also a concept "being looked into" by NASA.

The energy is free, collecting and using it is not.

Huh?

If collecting and using solar energy would be free, why do we have to pay for grid power?

Robots. Faster, better, easier to keep 'alive'. We build the structure or its components in orbit, then launch it to the desired location near good ol Sol. Drones assemble it.

Still work that has to be done. The robots could do something else in that time, so it costs something. And it costs raw materials of course.

Actually its from an Engineer and a military concept article for advanced rail guns I met/read a few years back. Why do you assume all I use is scifi reference so much?

All references you gave so far were science fiction. What else should I expect?

 

[TrueGormagon]

Warp drives are also a concept "being looked into" by NASA.

Yes they are. So I was referencing NASA scientists and engineers, not scifi writers.

If collecting and using solar energy would be free, why do we have to pay for grid power?

Seriously?

We pay power companies for grid power, which in most places is from coal or natural gas which has to be mined and transported by people who need pay, then the facilities were financed and the companies who want to make profit in the first place have to pay back the loans they took out to build the plants.

Worldwide there is very little solar, wind or hydroelectric as compared to the burning of fossil fuel, especially coal which is the dirtiest energy source we use. France uses nuclear for the most part and that's actually the cleanest source of power next to wind, making solar panels is a highly toxic process. (When the facilities are built properly and waste is recycled in breeder systems, or you decide to use thorium nuclear is ftw.)

If you are in a place that gets a lot of sun, I highly recommend getting solar panels, in most areas the company has to pay you for excess power you put into the grid at least for a period of time.

Still work that has to be done. The robots could do something else in that time, so it costs something. And it costs raw materials of course.

Yeah...but not much comparatively. And its still easier and better then humans. Which was my point.

All references you gave so far were science fiction. What else should I expect?

Not all, the last few you have assumed to be pure science fiction. Generally speaking, if I do reference scifi, it at least has a basis in reality.

 

[mfb]

Yes they are. So I was referencing NASA scientists and engineers, not scifi writers.

No, it means NASA is looking at concepts that are science fiction ;).

Worldwide there is very little solar, wind or hydroelectric as compared to the burning of fossil fuel, especially coal which is the dirtiest energy source we use.

Yes, for a simple reaon: it is cheaper than the "free" solar energy which is not free at all.

Generally speaking, if I do reference scifi, it at least has a basis in reality.

I have a different opinion in that respect.

 

[TrueGormagon]

No, it means NASA is looking at concepts that are science fiction ;).

Science fiction often becomes science fact, I think you are confusing the line between pure science fiction and science theory yet unproven directly BUT would work given what we know now.

Yes, for a simple reaon: it is cheaper than the "free" solar energy which is not free at all.

Its cheaper because we view it as cheaper. The cost in pollution and lives is not cheap in my opinion. The amount of thorium you would need to power your life could be held in your hand. Coal is not really cheap once you have adequate renewable energy infrastructure available, energy should be much cheaper or even free.

 

[mfb]

I think you are confusing the line between pure science fiction and science theory yet unproven directly

I see that very clearly. Yes science fiction can become science fact. That does not mean every science fiction concept is easy to realize as you seem to imply in many posts here.

Its cheaper because we view it as cheaper. The cost in pollution and lives is not cheap in my opinion. The amount of thorium you would need to power your life could be held in your hand. Coal is not really cheap

That's not the point.

once you have adequate renewable energy infrastructure available, energy should be much cheaper or even free.

Certainly not.

This discussion is going nowhere. I'm out.

 

[TrueGormagon]

Your right, this is going nowhere and definitely in the direction I intended. I really do not know what your goals are though I have my suspicions.

REBOOT

AMAT, antimatter. For those of you just joining, this thread has gotten off the beaten track. To recap, antimatter-

• Particles with the opposite charge and spin of a normal particle
• Can exist theoretically as anti-atoms made of anti particles
• Mutual annihilation is the result when amat and the opposite matter meet releasing energy
• Extremely dangerous compared to other power sources, like T/D or H3 fusion.
• Can be used as an effective catalyst for fusion rather then a pure source of power.
• Only exists in small amounts in our universe, created naturally by magnetic belts from planets for example like earth, Jupiter, and Saturn.
• Mag scoop technology is a technology being looked into to collect this amat.
• Particle accelerators can be used to create amat but are incredibly energy inefficient.
• Building a P.A station close to the sun to utilize the vast amounts of energy emitted every second would be much more efficient.
• Magnetic fields are used to contain and move amat.
• The efficiency is low, but amat energy density would be good for spacecraft a long way from a refueling station.
• Amat beam weapons are not by any means efficient.
• Pure amat warheads are not efficient or easy to actually engineer.

 

[GTOM]

Personally Orion's Arm Project hasnt really grasped me, trying to look so hard, when it also runs into wild speculations.
While i see a sense in antimatter collecting close to the sun, however, delivery costs will be also high due to the proximity of the Sun.

 

[vemvare]

Using antimatter in future spacecraft makes sense, if the following criteria can be upheld:

1. Its production efficiency can be increased several orders of magnitude
2. Antimatter containment can be improved enough.
3. Antimatter catalyzed fusion actually amplifies the input energy to a high enough degree.
4. Space based infrastructure exists, both in utilizing the power needed and an actual use for the spacecraft to be fueled.

Remembering the horribly goofy "antiprotons are a fusion catalyst" trope from the likewise horrible TV-show Andromeda, I'll fact-dump what I've read on the real world science of the process.

Supposedly, if a fusion target is heated by a burst of UV like in the NIF, the result is that the energy ends up in relativistic electrons, who in turn doesn't have a high enough cross-section to heat the fuel efficiently.

This is where antiprotons come in. If an antiproton is absorbed into a high-Z nuclei, the latter fissions into high energy fission fragments. These are more than five orders of magnitude heavier than electrons, and will release their energi in a consequently much shorter path while moving through the fuel, meaning the energy is delivered into a much smaller area.

The antimatter is not actually a catalyst in the process since it is consumed.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stuff/scott kircher/references.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507114

 

[GTOM]

Multiple reflective layers wouldn't be a good idea, the massive concentrated heat once the mirror breaks down the expanding hot gas will surely affect underlying layers, also like I said it is difficult if not impossible to build a mirror that could reflect enough of a laser with, say, two different frequencies.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/november/radiative-cooling-mirror-112614.html

I have found this one, i thought about more advanced broadband metallic mirrors.
But this coolant pumping stuff also a good idea.

Otherwise even if we harvest antimatter from the Sun, the systems will need regular maintenance, if it is done by robots, they have to be maintained, so it will be far from free.