Distance traveled and period of a mass - spring - pulley system

In summary, the conversation discusses the motion of a mass (M) connected to a spring and pulley system. The person setting the question seems to be confused about the role of the pulley and the relationship between the movement of the mass and the stretch of the spring. The question also mentions an equation of motion and the assumption of constant tension in the wire, which is not accurate. The significance of the question lies in the role of the pulley and its ability to alter the movement and force in the system. The correct answer to the question is that the mass moves twice the distance of the spring stretch.
  • #1
songoku
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Homework Statement
A mass M is attached to a free pulley and the pulley is attached to wire S and elastic spring (see diagram). The spring will extend 2.0 mm per Newton tensile force. When M is stationary, the extension of spring is 98 mm. The mass of pulley, wire and spring are negligible. M is pushed slowly upwards until there is no spring restoring force, then released.
a. by how far will M move down before it starts going up again? (answer = 392 mm)
b. find the period of the motion (answer = 0.2 π second)
Relevant Equations
Hooke's law

Simple harmonic motion
1.
How will the motion of M be? I assume wire S is inelastic so will M move downwards but not in straight line? (I mean M moves downwards but because the left side of pulley is connected to S, it will be static and the right side of pulley can go down along the extension of the spring so its movement will be curve). Or I assume wire S just like spool of thread coiling around the pulley so the pulley and M will move vertically downwards?

2.
Why the answer to question (a) is not 196 mm? When M is stationary and the spring extended by 98 mm, this will be equilibrium point of simple harmonic motion. When M is pushed slowly upwards until there is no spring restoring force, it means that the extension of spring is 0 so I think 98 mm will be the amplitude of simple harmonic motion. When M released, it will move downwards as far as twice the amplitude

Thanks

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  • #2
I assume the pulley and mass move vertically. In the absence of measurements and distances, this seems the only sensible assumption. So I take the width of the pulley (diameter) to equal the distance between the anchor points for S and the spring.

I share your puzzlement. It looks as if the spring must stretch twice the movement of the mass.
They seem to say that the reverse is the case: the mass moves twice the distance of the spring stretch?

I do disagree with your 196 mm though.
 
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  • #3
Merlin3189 said:
I share your puzzlement. It looks as if the spring must stretch twice the movement of the mass.
They seem to say that the reverse is the case: the mass moves twice the distance of the spring stretch?
Sorry I don't understand your hint. Does "the spring must stretch twice the movement of the mass" differ from "the mass moves twice the distance of the spring stretch"?

And I am also confused with the equation of motion:
a. When the spring extends by 98 mm and M is at rest
At this position, there are three forces acting on M: its weight, spring force, and tension S so Weight = kx + Ts

b. When there is no restoring force and M is released
At this position, there are only two forces acting on M: weight and tension S so Weight - Ts' = M.a

W - Ts' = M.a
kx +Ts - Ts' = M.a

I can not see this equation as simple harmonic motion equation because the value of Ts and Ts' are different and the acceleration is not directly proportional to displacement from equilibrium point. Or we assume Ts = Ts' (the tension of S is always constant)?

Thanks
 
  • #4
It wasn't a hint! It was just saying that the person who set the question seems to be a bit confused. I assumed you had thought the same, because you already knew that their answer for (a) is wrong.

The point is, how much the spring stretches when the mass moves. Are they the same ?
Or to make it a multiple choice Q
a) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 2 mm
b) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 1 mm
c) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 4 mm
d) none of the above

The whole significance of this question lies in the role of the pulley.
A pulley can alter the amount of the movement and also the force.
For an ideal pulley these are in inverse proportion (due to conservation of energy: |work|or|force x distance| is the same on both sides of the pulley)

" ... a free pulley ... and elastic spring ... . The mass of pulley, wire and spring are negligible. "
To me that implies we have to assume the wire is light, inextensible and has no friction with the pulley or anything else. Therefore the tension is the same at all points along the wire.
Similarly the pulley has no effect other than that of an ideal pulley.What you need to show is, that the force on the mass is proportional to the displacement of the mass from the equilibrium position. (obviously with the correct sense)

You need to be clear about what your variables stand for. Is x the displacement of the mass, or the extension of the spring? Or what? Where is the tension? In S, or in the string connecting the mass to the pulley?

You didn't say what Ts and Ts' are. I'd just stick to one T for tension in any one place, but realize that it is a variable.

Or we assume Ts = Ts' (the tension of S is always constant)?
No, the tension in the wire is not constant. It is attached to the spring, so for the spring to stretch tension must be applied by the wireYou need to consider just one position where the mass is not at equilibrium.
(The other position is just to allow you to calculate the mass.)
 
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  • #5
Merlin3189 said:
The point is, how much the spring stretches when the mass moves. Are they the same ?
Or to make it a multiple choice Q
a) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 2 mm
b) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 1 mm
c) mass moves 2 mm, spring stretches 4 mm
d) none of the above

The whole significance of this question lies in the role of the pulley.
A pulley can alter the amount of the movement and also the force.
For an ideal pulley these are in inverse proportion (due to conservation of energy: |work|or|force x distance| is the same on both sides of the pulley)

I think the answer is (c).

So the answer to my question (a) is 98 mm?

You need to be clear about what your variables stand for. Is x the displacement of the mass, or the extension of the spring? Or what? Where is the tension? In S, or in the string connecting the mass to the pulley?

You didn't say what Ts and Ts' are. I'd just stick to one T for tension in any one place, but realize that it is a variable.
Sorry my bad.

x = extension of the spring measured from its unstretched length
Ts = tension in wire S when the mass is in equilibrium position and the spring extends by 98 mm
Ts' = tension in wire S when the mass is released (after being pushed upwards)

Let say T = tension in wire S + restoring force of spring = tension in the string connecting the mass and pulley

You need to consider just one position where the mass is not at equilibrium.
(The other position is just to allow you to calculate the mass.)

When the mass is in equilibrium point, can I say the tension in S is equal to restoring force of spring?

Thanks
 
  • #6
songoku said:
So the answer to my question (a) is 98 mm?
Yes.
songoku said:
When the mass is in equilibrium point, can I say the tension in S is equal to restoring force of spring?
That is always true, not just at the equilibrium point.
 
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  • #7
haruspex said:
Yes.
Something looks strange here, you (and the OP) treat the problem like the harmonic motion will be like the mass M was attached to the spring and there was no pulley and no string.
That is always true, not just at the equilibrium point.
Can you expand on this please?
 
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  • #8
Delta2 said:
you (and the OP) treat the problem like the harmonic motion will be like the mass M was attached to the spring and there was no pulley and no string.
No, that would give 196mm.
Read the question carefully. We are told that when the mass is raised to where the spring is relaxed, the spring shrinks by 98mm, but then we are asked how far the mass will descend on release. How far did the mass rise in the first place?
Delta2 said:
Can you expand on this please?
Since the pulley and string are of negligible mass, the tension in the string always equals the tension in the spring.
 
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  • #9
I still don't get equation of simple harmonic motion.

Let say the mass has been released and it moves downwards until the spring extended by 98 mm, the free body diagram of the mass will be: tension T (between mass and pulley) acting upwards and weight acting downwards.

Equation of motion:
W - T = M.a
M.g - T = M.a
M.g - 2.k.x = M.a → from this equation, acceleration is not directly proportional to the displacement

Is the motion of M considered simple harmonic motion?

Thanks
 
  • #10
I am not sure at all here but my opinion:

M does indeed simple harmonic motion but its amplitude is half of the maximum compression (or maximum extension) of spring from its relaxed position and for this is responsible the pulley.
 
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  • #11
Yeah, Delta's nailed the point. You're measuring displacement from the unextended position of the spring. That's why you've got an unwanted constant term
The restoring force needs to be proportional to the displacement from the equilibrium position.

You say
M.g - 2.k.x = M.a
and you know there is no accn. at equilibrium point. If your x were measuring from there, you'd have
M.g - 2.k.0 = M.0 or M.g = 0 obviously not right.
 
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  • #12
Merlin3189 said:
Yeah, Delta's nailed the point. You're measuring displacement from the unextended position of the spring. That's why you've got an unwanted constant term
The restoring force needs to be proportional to the displacement from the equilibrium position.

You say
M.g - 2.k.x = M.a
and you know there is no accn. at equilibrium point. If your x were measuring from there, you'd have
M.g - 2.k.0 = M.0 or M.g = 0 obviously not right.

Yeah, I kept messing up between spring extension and displacement of simple harmonic motion.

Now I got the correct equation, along with answer for question (b), which is the same as answer key.

Thank you very much for the help Merlin3189, haruspex and Delta2
 
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  • #13
One thing that might be helpful, is to realize that the spring doesn't have to be the spring, just something that behaves like a spring.
pulley-spring.png

So here the light frictionless pulley, wire and spring behaves just like a spring, with a different constant.

You can work out how much the force changes as the mass moves. That gives you the spring constant of your equivalent spring.
Here when the mass moves 1 mm, the spring stetches 2 mm, requiring 1 N tension in the wire, so via the pulley, 2 N at the mass. So the imaginary spring is 2 N per 1 mm, giving K = 2000 N/m
 
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  • #14
Merlin3189 said:
One thing that might be helpful, is to realize that the spring doesn't have to be the spring, just something that behaves like a spring.
View attachment 263065
So here the light frictionless pulley, wire and spring behaves just like a spring, with a different constant.

You can work out how much the force changes as the mass moves. That gives you the spring constant of your equivalent spring.
Here when the mass moves 1 mm, the spring stetches 2 mm, requiring 1 N tension in the wire, so via the pulley, 2 N at the mass. So the imaginary spring is 2 N per 1 mm, giving K = 2000 N/m

By seeing your working, I just realized there is mistake in my working. I got effective spring constant = 1000 N/m when it should be 2000 N/m. The mistake lies in my equation relating extension of spring, amplitude and displacement from equilibrium position.

Thank you very much Merlin3189
 

1. What is a mass-spring-pulley system?

A mass-spring-pulley system is a mechanical system that consists of a mass attached to a spring, which is then connected to a pulley. The pulley is usually attached to a fixed point and the mass can move up and down due to the force of the spring.

2. How is the distance traveled by the mass in a mass-spring-pulley system calculated?

The distance traveled by the mass in a mass-spring-pulley system can be calculated using the formula: d = A*sin(2πt/T), where d is the distance, A is the amplitude (maximum displacement), t is the time, and T is the period of the system.

3. What factors affect the period of a mass-spring-pulley system?

The period of a mass-spring-pulley system is affected by several factors, including the mass of the object, the stiffness of the spring, and the length of the string or wire used. The period is also affected by external factors such as air resistance and friction.

4. How does the distance traveled by the mass affect the period of a mass-spring-pulley system?

The distance traveled by the mass does not affect the period of a mass-spring-pulley system. The period is solely determined by the factors mentioned in the previous answer. However, the distance traveled by the mass will affect the amplitude and the frequency of the system.

5. Can the period of a mass-spring-pulley system be changed?

Yes, the period of a mass-spring-pulley system can be changed by altering the factors that affect it. For example, increasing the mass or stiffness of the spring will increase the period, while decreasing the length of the string or wire will decrease the period. However, external factors such as air resistance and friction cannot be easily changed and will also affect the period.

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