Do Electrons Orbit Nuclei at the Same Distance?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether electrons orbit a nucleus at the same distance across different atoms, specifically focusing on the characteristics of 's' orbitals and how factors like additional electrons and nuclear charge influence their size and shape. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and implications of electron configurations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question if all 's' clouds are identical in size across different atoms, suggesting that changes in nuclear charge or electron configuration could lead to variations.
  • Others argue that electrons do not orbit the nucleus in a classical sense, and the size of an 's' cloud is contingent upon factors such as the quantum number and the configuration of other electrons.
  • A participant raises a hypothetical scenario comparing the size of the 1s cloud in hydrogen versus that in the hydride anion, questioning the impact of additional electrons on the volume of the electron cloud.
  • It is suggested that additional electrons alter the potential for an electron, with the extent of this effect depending on the orbitals of the other electrons present.
  • One participant notes that neutrons do not affect the electron cloud size if the motion of the nucleus is neglected.
  • Another participant discusses the binding energy of electrons in the context of hydrogen anions, indicating that the energy associated with double ionization provides insights into the electron configuration's symmetry and energy distribution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the size of 's' clouds remains consistent across different atomic configurations, with no consensus reached on the impact of additional electrons or neutrons on electron cloud volume.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the neglect of nuclear motion and the implications of electron configurations, which may not be universally accepted or defined.

Emissive
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Do electrons all orbit an nucleus at the same distance? I.e is an 's' cloud always the same in every atom or does the chance of finding one closer or further to the nucleus change? What about when the spin opposite electron enters the shell?
 
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Electrons don't "orbit" the nucleus at all.
I.e is an 's' cloud always the same in every atom
If the charge of the nucleus, the quantum number n and the configuration of all other electrons are the same, it is. If you change at least one thing, you get a different result.
 
So let's say we have a hydrogen 1s1 cloud - you are saying it has a different the size volume cloud as its anion hydride 1s2?

What if we add a neutron - is the volume still the same? (i would have guessed that its opposing spin electron would be permitted permitted in the same volume?)
 
Additional electrons change the potential for the electron. The magnitude of the effect depends on the orbitals of the other electrons.
Neutrons don't matter, if you neglect the "motion" of the nucleus.
 
Sticking with hydrogen example - you are saying if we make it an anion (and change the pe).. this makes the orbital more voluminous?
 
I don't find numbers for the size, but the binding energy gives some good hints:
"The Negative Ion of Hydrogen" gives an energy of 14.35 eV for a double ionization. As the electron configuration is symmetric, this corresponds to an energy of ~7 eV per electron, less than the binding energy of a single electron.
 

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