News Do Iraqis Have Any Rights Under US Military Control?

[Laser Eyes]

From what I can see the US military is detaining Iraqi civilians arbitrarily and on a large scale without any kind of due process - No search warrant, no arrest warrant, no lawyer, no bail, no time limit. If the US government tried to arrest people in such a way in the USA there would be an uproar and the government would be sued for squillions. Do Iraqi citizens have any rights at all? Or can a US soldier deprive an Iraqi citizen of their liberty any time on any whim?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
From what I can see the US military is detaining Iraqi civilians arbitrarily and on a large scale without any kind of due process - No search warrant, no arrest warrant, no lawyer, no bail, no time limit. If the US government tried to arrest people in such a way in the USA there would be an uproar and the government would be sued for squillions. Do Iraqi citizens have any rights at all? Or can a US soldier deprive an Iraqi citizen of their liberty any time on any whim?

Haven't you heard? Americans have no rights either, except those which the Justice Department allows us to have. You can be held arbitrarily if you are identified as a troublemaker(read the fine print of the Patriot acts).

 

[russ_watters]

Laser Eyes, the concepts you are describing simply do not apply to a war outside our borders. This isn't a simple discussion, but the Geneva Conventions would be a good place to start for learning about the rules of armed conflict. Though implied by some in this forum, I have yet to see any specific instance where the US has violated the Geneva Convention in Iraq. Requests I have made for specific examples have been rebuffed.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

they have the right to remain silent, but they have chosen to waive that right <<rim-shot>>
No, they don't, because today in Iraq it is the law of the jungle that rules. If Bush were truly smart, in a Machiavellian sense, he'd get his punk ass over to Iraq for a long vacation. Only his presence can restore order there. I'm mad about what's happened and keeps happening there. I'm sick of all the bloodshed. What could've been (and was promoted as) a democratic revolution is obviously a failure far beyond somalia, and could turn into something as screwed up as Israel.
One fact is unarguable: more Americans die at the hands of Iraqis now than one year ago.

 

[FZ+]

We all saw pictures of Iraqi prisoners being taken on live TV didn't we? That breached the geneva convention (Article 13)

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
We all saw pictures of Iraqi prisoners being taken on live TV didn't we? That breached the geneva convention (Article 13)

I think it's fairly safe to say that article 13 is ambiguous enough to make that claim highly debatable.

 

[FZ+]

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity

Protected from public curiosity seems deeply unambiguous to me. Perhaps you might like to de-clarify this point?

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
Protected from public curiosity seems deeply unambiguous to me. Perhaps you might like to de-clarify this point?

A snippet from an article at "findlaws" site shows at the very least that there is debate within legal circles and that it certainly is not seen as "unambiguous".

First, consider Article 13's emphasis on the protection of prisoners from "insults and "public curiosity." In theory, the phrase "public curiosity" could be taken to refer to any display of prisoners or their images. However, read in the context of the Convention's overall concern with humane treatment, it seems more plausible to think that it was intended to refer to situations where prisoners might be exposed in person to be viewed by a group of enemy civilians or soldiers - an obviously degrading and humiliating circumstance.

It might also be taken to cover situations in which photography is intended to further the humiliation of this kind of in-person display, or in which photography is done for the purpose of expressing contempt and insult.

Thus, it may not be the photography, in itself, that is the violation, but rather the photography seen in context, once one knows its circumstances and intent.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20030326_dworkin.html

 

[jb]

they also showed pictures of saddam's bloody boys on tv, who i might add look nothing like them, i don't know enough about international law to know how that fits into the geneva.

and i seem to recall bush blackmailing belgium (i think) into dismissing war crimes charges (he threatened to move nato headquarters out of that country, which is bullsh!t, also it got no attention besides a 3 sentence clip in my local newspaper)

and the iraqis have no rights, because we're bringing democracy to them.

with more people getting upset about loss of life in iraq, does anybody remember when some of us opposed it in the beginning?

 

[schwarzchildradius]

if POWs are displayed in a public forum s/a on T.V. or in print media, their identities become public knowledge therefore the families are susceptible to intimidation, torture, execution, etc. That's why we make such a big noise about it when it happens to us. Not so big a noise when its some other guy.

 

[FZ+]

But to grab another point: Russ, do you consider Iraq to be an ongoing war now, or do you consider other legislation to have taken over, such as the UN agreements on human rights, now that the war is "over"? Either case, I can provide other examples as you asked for.

 

[Tail]

I've yet to see Americans (the government of America, to be more precise...) respecting someone's rights or freedom, unless that someone is more powerful or can pay.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
But to grab another point: Russ, do you consider Iraq to be an ongoing war now, or do you consider other legislation to have taken over, such as the UN agreements on human rights, now that the war is "over"? Either case, I can provide other examples as you asked for.

Not really sure why "other legislation" wouldn't apply during war (guess it depends on the specific legislation) but in any case, I'll take any examples you can give.

 

[FZ+]

Ok, From Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 21 Part 1

Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

The US has already denied that Baathist part representatives or proponents of theocratic governments be allowed as options in a future vote on the Iraqi government - hence it has denied those people representation as required by the universal declaration.

By implication, the US is also in breach of article 30.

Also, hundreds of Iraqi civilians reported to be imprisoned without charge or trial(in conditions that are reported to be very poor) without charge, including children.
eg. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1019155,00.html

This is in breach of article 10 and 11(part 1).

Specific cases also breach article 9 and 11 part 2:

[QUOTENo one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

]No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.[/QUOTE]

Ahmed Suhail, a final-year high-school student, was with his father, a well-known Baghdad vet, when they were stopped at a checkpoint on May 15. His father had a pistol (the coalition banned the carrying of weapons outside the home from June 14, but at the time it was not an offence)
...
"At no time was I questioned or interrogated, or charged. It was just punishment without trial. When the Americans first came to Baghdad I was happy, but I don't want to speak about my feelings towards them now," he says.

The granting of legal immunity to US companies also breaches articles 2 and 7.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

More later.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
The US has already denied that Baathist part representatives or proponents of theocratic governments be allowed as options in a future vote on the Iraqi government - hence it has denied those people representation as required by the universal declaration.

Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

Anyone except criminals of course. Like the Nazi party after WWII, the Baath party can most certainly be excluded from government. As for proponents of theocratic governments, Iraq will become a democracy. At that time, theocratic elements may very well be voted into power. Please remember that the government isn't finished being set up yet. Its tough to argue that composition of government articles even apply until then. They certainly do not apply to the interim government.

Also, hundreds of Iraqi civilians reported to be imprisoned without charge or trial.

You asked before whether there was still a war going on. To me that's a question of semantics, but the country is still (clearly) in a state of martial law and will remain so until we get the government set up. That one doesn't apply.

As far as the legal immunity to US countries goes, I still have yet to see an analysis from a credible legal source. But I'm not sure about it. I do think it is reasonable for some protection to be given to the compaines.

FZ+, you're reaching here. The violations you cited would apply if we made the current status of Iraq permanent. They most certainly do not apply to a transitional phase. The reconstruction of Germany and Japan are good examples to compare it to.

I guess now I do understand what you mean by "other legislation" - an independent, funcioning government. Clearly this does not exist. Iraq is in what I would call a transitional state between war and an independent government.

 

[jcsd]

Originally posted by jb
they also showed pictures of saddam's bloody boys on tv, who i might add look nothing like them, i don't know enough about international law to know how that fits into the geneva.

Showing picture of dead bodies on TV doesn't violate any of the Geneva Conventions as the parts governing them merely make provisos for burial arrangments and contacting the families.

Whether or not showing POWs is against the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War is debatable, it's more a sign of Bush et al's hypocrisy over the standards that they think should apply to US troops vs the standards that they think should apply to foreign troops.

 

[jcsd]

Originally posted by russ_watters
FZ+, you're reaching here. The violations you cited would apply if we made the current status of Iraq permanent. They most certainly do not apply to a transitional phase. The reconstruction of Germany and Japan are good examples to compare it to.

No the 4th Geneva Convention applies always when a country or countries are occupying another.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by jcsd
No the 4th Geneva Convention applies always when a country or countries are occupying another.

I wasn't referring to the Geneva convention. FZ+ cited other international law.

 

[jcsd]

Originally posted by russ_watters
I wasn't referring to the Geneva convention. FZ+ cited other international law.

Well, As you can see from FZ's post the universal declaration applies universally without exception, under humanitarian law you cannot suspend inviolable huamn rights when it suits you.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by jcsd
Well, As you can see from FZ's post the universal declaration applies universally without exception, under humanitarian law you cannot suspend inviolable huamn rights when it suits you.

This is not entirely true, it does not apply "without exception" the exception is always that if the implementation of the universal declaration threatens more basic human rights, such as security, life, hunger..etc. then the more basic human rights are upheld primarily.

I think much of FZ's complaints were taken care of in May when the United Nations Security Council gave the US and Britain authority to administer Iraq. Even more so when the interim government's legitimacy was recognized br the United Nations resolution that called for the formation of an interim administration under the American-British occupation.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

From what I've read on 'military families speak out dot org' and such, reports from Iraq are of a low-level but serious urban guerrilla war. Our great heros at the phone and power companies are having trouble getting their services running there; its just very dangerous to work there. FZ, are you really surprised that the US would flaunt the Geneva convention? After all, its just a set of principles on paper. It only has the power that the UN gives it.

 

[FZ+]

Schwarz: Not really. In fact, in cases such as showing the dead sons of Saddam, I agree with the actions the US has taken. However, I am simply correcting Russ's implication that accusations of the US breaching human rights are made up - as plainly examples show they are not. I am not making a judgement call on whether these human rights are absolute, or whether sometimes other things are more important. In some of these cases, we can find some justification of course. But then, we can also find cases where we find the US actions to be dubious even though it has not specifically breached a convention.


Russ:

Anyone except criminals of course. Like the Nazi party after WWII, the Baath party can most certainly be excluded from government.

Except, it doesn't say that. It says everyone. And those people who are loyal to Saddam are not all criminals - some are perhaps deluded etc. The pedant might note that the nazi case, including the de-nazification programme after the war, was another case in which the rights of the people were overruled - for better or worse.

I'll fetch the quote, but an US spokeperson expressed said that proponents of a religious state will not be available as options in any future election for the Iraqi government. In this case, any further government must neccessarily be in breach of their human rights.

You asked before whether there was still a war going on. To me that's a question of semantics, but the country is still (clearly) in a state of martial law and will remain so until we get the government set up. That one doesn't apply.

So, you would say that Bush is lying, and the war in Iraq is still on? Ok, let's pretend that the UD doesn't apply, and ignore your earlier statement where you agreed that these legislation should apply at all times (accidentally breaking article 30 and article 5 of the geneva convention again..). Then we go back to the geneva convention(this time relative to the treatment of civilians), which states:

Article 25: All persons in the territory of a Party to the conflict, or in a territory occupied by it, shall be enabled to give news of a strictly personal nature to members of their families, wherever they may be, and to receive news from them. This correspondence shall be forwarded speedily and without undue delay.

Did I mention the prisoners were denied contact with their families. Oops, another breach.

Article 33: No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Article 65: The penal provisions enacted by the Occupying Power shall not come into force before they have been published and brought to the knowledge of the inhabitants in their own language. The effect of these penal provisions shall not be retroactive.

Article 71: Accused persons who are prosecuted by the Occupying Power shall be promptly informed, in writing, in a language which they understand, of the particulars of the charges preferred against them, and shall be brought to trial as rapidly as possible.

Article 72: Failing a choice by the accused, the Protecting Power may provide him with an advocate or counsel. When an accused person has to meet a serious charge and the Protecting Power is not functioning, the Occupying Power, subject to the consent of the accused, shall provide an advocate or counsel.

I did warn you... There are far more breaches in the geneva convention that in the more general laws of the universal declaration.

As far as the legal immunity to US countries goes, I still have yet to see an analysis from a credible legal source. But I'm not sure about it. I do think it is reasonable for some protection to be given to the compaines.

The question is not whether it is reasonable or not. The action itself is a serious breach of Iraq Human Rights. By law.

Kat:

This is not entirely true, it does not apply "without exception" the exception is always that if the implementation of the universal declaration threatens more basic human rights, such as security, life, hunger..etc. then the more basic human rights are upheld primarily.

The universal declaration are the basic human rights. The articles listed include the hunger, life etc rights.
The declaration expressedly forbids the active sacrifice of one right for another.

Article 30: Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

The UN cannot absolve the US of any of these articles, becauyse in doing so, it would be breaking article 30 itself. The government issues do not refer to the current government, but the guidelines issued for the formation of the future "democratic" administration in Iraq.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
Kat:

The universal declaration are the basic human rights. The articles listed include the hunger, life etc rights.
The declaration expressedly forbids the active sacrifice of one right for another.

You'd have to show me where the declaration forbids sacrafice of one right over the other. As for Article 30 it is very explicit (as it should be) in that it applies to "any act aimed at the destruction" This section does NOT cover implementation of rights that were not previously being implemented.

The UN cannot absolve the US of any of these articles, becauyse in doing so, it would be breaking article 30 itself. The government issues do not refer to the current government, but the guidelines issued for the formation of the future "democratic" administration in Iraq.

You are mistaken, The Universal Declaration provides for the United Nations authority in Article 29 Section 3

These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations

The basic human rights of basic health needs, relief from hunger, security etc. ARE ALWAYS the primary focus when implementing The Universal Declaration, implemented prior to all others.

 

[FZ+]

You'd have to show me where the declaration forbids sacrafice of one right over the other. As for Article 30 it is very explicit (as it should be) in that it applies to "any act aimed at the destruction" This section does NOT cover implementation of rights that were not previously being implemented.

Where does it set down an order of precedence for each right?

In that case, the US has already broken article 30 by the invasion of Iraq, in which it generated a poor standard of living, where according to you the actions of Saddam's regime were so far down the list of rights.

The basic human rights of basic health needs, relief from hunger, security etc. ARE ALWAYS the primary focus when implementing The Universal Declaration, implemented prior to all others.

Please list the article where it says that.

One might not that the standard of living etc is article 25, while representation in government is article number 21.

You are mistaken, The Universal Declaration provides for the United Nations authority in Article 29 Section 3

This section is also very explicit (as it should be). This means that the measures taken by the US to establish any of these rights require the agreement of the UN general assembly or security council. As that vote did not take place, the US occupation is inherently in breach of this article. The US remains in breach as that article, if we accept your interpretation of the following one, refers only to the implementation of new rights, not legitimising the destruction of previous ones. (Though we may note in passing article 28, which still places the duty firmly on the US to form a representative government, no matter if it was in place before, or not.)

 

[kat]

Originally posted by FZ+
Where does it set down an order of precedence for each right?

It gives no guidelines on implementation whatsoever, this does not mean you assume that they must all be implemented simultaniously.

In that case, the US has already broken article 30 by the invasion of Iraq, in which it generated a poor standard of living, where according to you the actions of Saddam's regime were so far down the list of rights.

I think, if you research, you will find that you cannot "break" declarations. Declarations are not binding. However, International covenants and conventions have the force of law for the countries that ratify them.

Please list the article where it says that.

In practice, this is the way it is and has been practiced by both the U.N. and NATO. The declaration does not cover the steps to implementation nor does it cover responsibility.

This section is also very explicit (as it should be). This means that the measures taken by the US to establish any of these rights require the agreement of the UN general assembly or security council. As that vote did not take place, the US occupation is inherently in breach of this article. The US remains in breach as that article, if we accept your interpretation of the following one, refers only to the implementation of new rights, not legitimising the destruction of previous ones. (Though we may note in passing article 28, which still places the duty firmly on the US to form a representative government, no matter if it was in place before, or not.)

Again, a declaration is not binding and cannot be "breached". If it were the entire middle east would be in breach.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
Except, it doesn't say that. It says everyone.

So you're willing to accept the obviously absurd implications of "everyone"? Children? Criminals (in ANY country)? Etc. Don't be rediculous.

I'll fetch the quote, but an US spokeperson expressed said that proponents of a religious state will not be available as options in any future election for the Iraqi government. In this case, any further government must neccessarily be in breach of their human rights.

I'm sure whatever Constitution they get will include the ability to amend it.

So, you would say that Bush is lying, and the war in Iraq is still on?

Lol. Do I even need to respond to that? You're really being rediculous.

Did I mention the prisoners were denied contact with their families. Oops, another breach.

That one I'll give you. I've always considered that one to be pretty absurd. A right to send and receive mail? Please. I don't know that anyone ever follows that one.

I did warn you... There are far more breaches in the geneva convention that in the more general laws of the universal declaration.

Are you going to provide actual examples or just list numbers? I certainly don't know enough about the structure of our occupation to prove those 4 one way or another and I'd wager you don't either.

The question is not whether it is reasonable or not. The action itself is a serious breach of Iraq Human Rights. By law.

Where does it say that?

The declaration expressedly forbids the active sacrifice of one right for another.

[?] [?] Thats THE fundamental question in the theory of "rights" and the basis for all limits on rights. For example, yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected free speech because it infringes on the rights of the other people in the theater.

The government issues do not refer to the current government, but the guidelines issued for the formation of the future "democratic" administration in Iraq.

[?] [?] So after listing them you concede they don't apply?

In that case, the US has already broken article 30 by the invasion of Iraq, in which it generated a poor standard of living, where according to you the actions of Saddam's regime were so far down the list of rights.

Lol, are you saying you think the standard of living is WORSE now than when Saddam was in power? Do you have any idea how many people died as a direct result of his regime? Its staggering. Its enough that even during the active part of the war, Iraqi civilians were dying at a slower rate than before the war started - Saddam had to divert his energy away from killing his own people.

Again, FZ+, you're really reaching here. I was hoping for something more clear cut, like evidence of abusing POW's or intentionally targeting civilians, etc. If splitting hairs on the implimentation of the government is the best you can do for finding violations, I'd say we're doing an extrordinarily good job at protecting the rights of the Iraqi people.

 

[Laser Eyes]

I've yet to see Americans (the government of America, to be more precise...) respecting someone's rights or freedom, unless that someone is more powerful or can pay.

Or they happen to have a desired UN Security Council vote.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

impressive. The US would do better at the goal of "rebuilding" if it would follow the codes set down for such endeavors. But as RW shows, suggested violations are subject to rigorous scrutiny.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
But as RW shows, suggested violations are subject to rigorous scrutiny.

As well they should be. There was a recent treaty, something about the World Court I think that the US did not ratify for fear of frivolous attempts at litigation. Given the culture of litigation in the US, its reasonable to want to be protected from that. And given that the US is the big kid on the block, everyone is going to take shots at us whenever they can.

But beyond that: Innocent until proven guilty. Accusations made on message boards are nothing. No one has yet even alleged such violations in an international forum, much less attempted to take action. To me that's pretty telling.

 

[FZ+]

So you're willing to accept the obviously absurd implications of "everyone"? Children? Criminals (in ANY country)? Etc. Don't be rediculous.

It's the wording of the law. Everyone. Appeal to the UN if you disagree. Of course, in most major systems, children are counted as represented as their children. However, it is wholy incorrect to say that all those who were loyal to Saddam were criminals. At least, unless we are talking about political criminals, which would happen to be another breach.

I'm sure whatever Constitution they get will include the ability to amend it.

Not if the US has already selected the possibilities of government that would draw it up.

That one I'll give you. I've always considered that one to be pretty absurd. A right to send and receive mail? Please. I don't know that anyone ever follows that one.

In US prisons, you get your phone call. This is an essential safeguard to ensure the prisoners are not abused. Without such contact, we cannot in fact know if the conditions are adequate or not, though suggestions from past prisoners say they are. (also a breach)

Are you going to provide actual examples or just list numbers? I certainly don't know enough about the structure of our occupation to prove those 4 one way or another and I'd wager you don't either.

How much?

The effect of these penal provisions shall not be retroactive.

Ahmed Suhail, a final-year high-school student, was with his father, a well-known Baghdad vet, when they were stopped at a checkpoint on May 15. His father had a pistol (the coalition banned the carrying of weapons outside the home from June 14, but at the time it was not an offence)

I can give examples for the others as well. I just thought I can assume you have actually read my previous posts, where I supplied a link to these accounts.

Pay up!

Where does it say that?

Articles 2 and 7 of the universal declaration of human rights. Do read it please.

Thats THE fundamental question in the theory of "rights" and the basis for all limits on rights. For example, yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater isn't protected free speech because it infringes on the rights of the other people in the theater.

Allowances for this case is given in the Universal Declaration. Allowances for the refusal of trials, representative governments etc are not given. And the carrying out of these do not infringe the rights of others in any meaningful way.

So after listing them you concede they don't apply?

No. I am saying you missed the point. I was not talking about the transition stage you referred to. I was talking about the goals and specifications for the final "independent" government the US set out. YOUR objections don't apply.

Do you have any idea how many people died as a direct result of his regime?

Do you? Without quoting data from 10 years ago, during which it was effectively a guerilla civil war? Or previously, during another war?

As some cynics note, at least Saddam kept security, and electricity/water going. Perhaps the current situation will improve. But on the criteria kat set out, this is still a breach from the moment the services were taken out.

I was hoping for something more clear cut, like evidence of abusing POW's or intentionally targeting civilians, etc.

How ironic. You know that the least clear cut things would be such accounts of abusing POWs etc, clouded by emotion and based on eyewitness accounts. In fact, I specifically decided to show you the thin end of the wedge - the claims that are indisputable by confirmation with a variety of sources. If you want the more sensationalist data I avoided, any googlisation would do.

Funny though that we have all remembered innocent until proven guilty just now...

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
It's the wording of the law. Everyone. Appeal to the UN if you disagree.

Wow. I really expected you to try to get around that one. I'm stunned. So tell me, should the kids who can't yet sign their own name be allowed to use a thumbprint when they vote? Does it imply provisions for kids who can't yet read to have someone read the candidates list to them? FZ+, you're cracking me up. This is hilarious.

Or maybe there is another possibility that is obvious to everyone except you: "everyone" doesn't mean "everyone." Incidentally there is an easy way out, though it would destroy your arguement: You could simply admit that a "declaration" is a declaration, not a law. Just like the US Declaration of Independence, its a declaration of principles, not a real workable law. That explains why it is so general, vague, and impractical.

However, it is wholy incorrect to say that all those who were loyal to Saddam were criminals.

How so? I think they call them "accomplices." If the regime itself (as defined by the criminal dictator) is criminal, everyone involved in running it is complicit in the crimes. Again, that's how it worked with Nazi Germany. Maybe I should tell YOU to take that one up with the UN, since there is some precident here.

Not if the US has already selected the possibilities of government that would draw it up.

At some point, the US will release all control over the Iraqi government.

In US prisons, you get your phone call. This is an essential safeguard to ensure the prisoners are not abused. Without such contact, we cannot in fact know if the conditions are adequate or not, though suggestions from past prisoners say they are. (also a breach)

I conceded the mail thing, but now you're interpreting it wrong. It really does mean MAIL. The phone call is NOT how they guarantee there is no abuse, that's the Red Cross's job. A person in jail is not exactly an objective observer of the conditions in the jail.

How much?

Hmm... Dodge or cite examples? I guess you have made your choice.

Articles 2 and 7 of the universal declaration of human rights. Do read it please.

laws of the universal declaration.

I let this slide until now, but as Kat pointed out, the universal declaration is *NOT* law any more than the Declaration of Independence is US law.

In any case, nothing in those two says anything about one entity protecting an entity from legal responsibility. To me that means the USA has put itself in the position to answer all such claims. This doesn't violate anyone's rights - if they want to sue, they can still sue the USA.

I can give examples for the others as well.

By all means. But could you also reread the one you just posted please? The part in the parenthases about it not being illegal at the time to carry a weapon was an aside. They weren't charged with it, so it can't be argued that they were charged retro-actively. In fact, the main complaint was that he was imprisoned WITHOUT being charged. Feel free to argue that as a separate violation if you want.

Allowances for this case is given in the Universal Declaration.[re:balancing rights]

That would be Article 7: equal protection under the law. And it does in fact mean that rights of people are BALANCED against each other. I said before that's a fundamental principle of "rights." That comes straight from Locke (via the US Bill of Rights).

I was not talking about the transition stage you referred to. I was talking about the goals and specifications for the final "independent" government the US set out.

So you know the exact form of something that doesn't exist yet? Impressive. In any case, if you are worried about the final form of the government, why are all of the examples you cited in the "transitional" part? Obviously you can't give an example of a volation that hasn't happened yet, but by saying its the final form of the gov't that you are worried about, you are arguing against yourself. In any case, allow me to let you off the hook: I asked for examples of violations that have actually occurred. So you need not concern yourself with fortune telling. I also asked specifically for Geneva Convention violations, but for now I'll settle for whatever you can give me. Though I guess you just conceded that there can't be any violations by an entity that doesn't exist yet. Then again, any violations by the future government of Iraq will be by the future government of Iraq, not the US.

Do you? Without quoting data from 10 years ago, during which it was effectively a guerilla civil war? Or previously, during another war?

The usual number cited by those who said the UN sanctions were responsible for the deaths since 1991 was about 500,000. Of course since we found warehouses full of hoarded food and caches of oil-for-food money, it is clear that those deaths are all on Saddam's head. That figure does not include executions of political prisoners.

As some cynics note, at least Saddam kept security, and electricity/water going.

Sabbotage by Saddam loyalists is a topic for another thread.

In fact, I specifically decided to show you the thin end of the wedge - the claims that are indisputable by confirmation with a variety of sources. If you want the more sensationalist data I avoided, any googlisation would do.

So this wet tissue paper is the BEST information you have? Good to know.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

I'm stunned. So tell me, should the kids who can't yet sign their own name be allowed to use a thumbprint when they vote? Does it imply provisions for kids who can't yet read to have someone read the candidates list to them?

just because they can't read the Queen's English doesn't mean they can't read. Are you implying that Iraqis are incapable of a Republic or a Democracy?

 

[schwarzchildradius]

No one has yet even alleged such violations in an international forum, much less attempted to take action. To me that's pretty telling.

It IS telling- its telling you that the international community is skeptical of our intentions, and afraid of our motives.
What would be the result, for instance of an international tribunal against Clinton? Has he committed war crimes, or commanded war crimes to be committed? he did bomb a Pharmaceutical factory in some 3rd world country. And Slobo's TV station. And the international unfair trade alliances. Nobody can touch the President except the House of Representatives, so the UN will not punish the US with military force, but with sanctions.
___
"History will be my judge" --- FDR

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
just because they can't read the Queen's English doesn't mean they can't read. Are you implying that Iraqis are incapable of a Republic or a Democracy?

Please reread that paragraph of satire. It has nothing to do with the literacy rate (though it is pretty appalling) of Iraq. It was simply an extension of FZ+'s insistence that "everyone" including children and convicted criminals should have the right to vote.

What would be the result, for instance of an international tribunal against Clinton? Has he committed war crimes, or commanded war crimes to be committed?

Had the UN believed Clinton guilty of war crimes, they would have attempted to try him - even in absentia. Someone is only above the law if we ALLOW them to be above the law. And the UN won't allow the US (at least they'll try as hard as they can not to) to be above the law.

 

[FZ+]

Or maybe there is another possibility that is obvious to everyone except you: "everyone" doesn't mean "everyone."

It seems your brain has mistranslated the text or something, because I rather distinctly said "represented". And guess what the declaration says?

The point is that the views of everyone should be available in the forum of government, and not be judged because of how "able" you think they are. You can then reject them if the majority find them wrong, but not without representation in the first place. Hell, I'd love to rule out floridans out from elections because I think they are dumb, but it seems the US tries to follow the Universal Declaration. Not always successfully, but tries to. But I see you are too busy giggling over the idea that children have opinions.

Get this through your head. Represent does not mean vote. It means that someone can put their views forward, in the forum of government, without being pre-selected by what a foreign power thinks of them.

How so? I think they call them "accomplices." If the regime itself (as defined by the criminal dictator) is criminal, everyone involved in running it is complicit in the crimes. Again, that's how it worked with Nazi Germany. Maybe I should tell YOU to take that one up with the UN, since there is some precident here.

And therefore 99% of Nazis were denied the vote because they supported Hitler? There is no precident there, as by the way you are saying, that anyone who would vote for a return of Saddam is an accomplice, then the entirity of Germany was "complicit". It doesn't work that way. The ones with a direct connection were indicted under war crimes, but the people were forgiven.

At some point, the US will release all control over the Iraqi government.

Having formed one that is utterly to it's wishes. The US has never promised to respect the will of the Iraqi people no matter if it disagrees with it. It has instead insisted that it's will is to select the choices available for the election, thus crippling the new democracy. That is the problem.

I conceded the mail thing, but now you're interpreting it wrong. It really does mean MAIL. The phone call is NOT how they guarantee there is no abuse, that's the Red Cross's job. A person in jail is not exactly an objective observer of the conditions in the jail.

WTH.. Ah I see. You are reading the wrong section of the geneva convention. Look at the geneva convention relative to the protection of CIVILIAN PERSONS, which also refers to the behaviour of occupying powers.

Read article 25.

All persons in the territory of a Party to the conflict, or in a territory occupied by it, shall be enabled to give news of a strictly personal nature to members of their families, wherever they may be, and to receive news from them. This correspondence shall be forwarded speedily and without undue delay.

I refer to the failure of the US to achieve this, or to undertake the other alternatives. The prisoners I refer to where not considered at military prisoners by the occupying party.

Hmm... Dodge or cite examples? I guess you have made your choice.

Er... Russ... Earth calling russ? Read ONE line down from where you quoted me to find your example. You owe me what? 50 bucks?

I let this slide until now, but as Kat pointed out, the universal declaration is *NOT* law any more than the Declaration of Independence is US law.

But it is the basis of all laws relating to human rights. Additional laws add further rights, not reduce ones that are establish here in principle.

In any case, nothing in those two says anything about one entity protecting an entity from legal responsibility.

Yes it does. It says all parties are equal before the law regardless of the entity they belong to.

Feel free to argue that as a separate violation if you want.

*shrug* Also works. Still an example.

That would be Article 7: equal protection under the law.

Now let's remember what you just said. The universal declaration is not a law. Oops, doesn't apply.

So you know the exact form of something that doesn't exist yet?

Huh? I know the form of it, because the US spokesperson said that's the way it's going to be, and I believe him. You don't? Want to give a reason why? The US has a responsibility by article 28, as I said before.

The usual number cited by those who said the UN sanctions were responsible for the deaths since 1991 was about 500,000.

Might the fact that these were attributed to sanctions be a hint as to how you are taking this out of context?

So this wet tissue paper is the BEST information you have? Good to know.

From an integrity of source point of view, without making any references to say, single anonymous sources, phd thesis, gut feeling and the clever art of re-interpreting satellite imagery and forging evidence. But I'm not saying, bomb the US, am I? I am saying that there is serious and credible evidence for human rights abuses of at least the level you denied existed, and so you were wrong.

That was what I was trying to settle.


--

Let me now make a dramatic point.

I am FOR the continued occupation of Iraq, because I believe that now that the war has been done, it must be necessary to face the real consequences everyone forgot about. I believe that some human rights incidents are inevitable, and we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking they aren't, but that we can always do more to ensure greater success to the rebuilding of Iraq. The worst possible thing is in fact for the US to pull out of Iraq right now. Our continued vigilance should not be on a selfish determination to "get our boys home", but to finish what Bushy started. It is in everyone's best interest to overwhelm the controversy of the war with a new peace.

Thank you gentlemen. Next step, the Republican/democrat (never can tell the difference nowadays) presidential candidacy!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by FZ+
It seems your brain has mistranslated the text or something, because I rather distinctly said "represented". And guess what the declaration says?

You're right - I made the jump from representation to voting in the last post. Apologies. In any case, that makes it even better - its vague enough to allow a government to decide HOW people are represented. If people can take responsibility for children as not being competent to represent themselves, the same can be said for Nazis or criminals.

But I see you are too busy giggling over the idea that children have opinions.

Covered above. Children's opinions are most certainly irrelevant. Others decide what is best for them without regard for the opinion of the child (if desired).

Having formed one that is utterly to it's wishes. The US has never promised to respect the will of the Iraqi people no matter if it disagrees with it. It has instead insisted that it's will is to select the choices available for the election, thus crippling the new democracy.

As I said, until it happens, its academic. We'll just have to wait and see.

I refer to the failure of the US to achieve this, or to undertake the other alternatives. The prisoners I refer to where not considered at military prisoners by the occupying party.

Ok, so the US is responsible for setting up the mail and/or getting the phones working. Thats fine - we're working on it. Its tough though since terrorists continue to blow up much of the infrastructure we build.

Read ONE line down from where you quoted me to find your example. You owe me what? 50 bucks?

You misread your own exampmle - and I covered that... about one line down from that quote

*shrug* Also works. Still an example.

Ahh good - so you accept the other side of the coin - that you misread your own example... Ok, now you can argue that unlawful imprisonment if you choose. Good luck.

But it is the basis of all laws relating to human rights. Additional laws add further rights, not reduce ones that are establish here in principle.

Certainly... so now you are conceding that there can't be a war crime that comes from a "violation" of this? Ok, good... So why are we discussing it? I asked for war crimes.

Yes it does. It says all parties are equal before the law regardless of the entity they belong to.

If it were only that simple when reconciling the laws of two separate countries - especially one that is not even halfway set up. But in any case, that's part of the thing we just agreed isn't a war crime. So not relevant.

Might the fact that these were attributed to sanctions be a hint as to how you are taking this out of context?

I *LOVE* using people's own statistics against them.

I am saying that there is serious and credible evidence for human rights abuses of at least the level you denied existed, and so you were wrong.

That was what I was trying to settle.

Well that's nice. So you concede that though you find some things that may or may not happen in the future unsettling you do NOT have any evidence of actual war crimes that have acutally been comitted? Well why did we even have this conversation? I asked for evidence of war crimes. You gave me ONE, which I conceded (while laughing at it). Somehow I doubt that anyone in the US will be convicted by the Hague for not providing adequate mail service to the Iraqi POW's.

Next step...

Fair enough. But my question remains open for anyone who wants to answer it. Maybe I'll start a new thread.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

Please reread that paragraph of satire.

A thousand pardons, your subtleties eluded etc. I read in Newsweek that an official in Iraq said "there's no structure here -- at least the UN has structure."
Was one of the 'beaurueacratic reasons' for this war to intentionally flaunt the UN or at least break alliances with them?

RWAt some point, the US will release all control over the Iraqi government.

That's totally true of course, but when? When it's handed back to the UN in an oil-depleated impoverished ruin? Ok, more optimistic - in 2 years when a sane person regains the title of commander in chief.

FZ+Get this through your head. Represent does not mean vote. It means that someone can put their views forward, in the forum of government, without being pre-selected by what a foreign power thinks of them.

That's a constitutional right in this country, but our presence and the UN's in Iraq is being attacked on all sides by religious fundamentalist terrorists. Of course they have the "right" de-facto to express their views because the government does not exist. Our few tens of thousands spread over a city of 5 million people are not going to stop any massive uprising.