Do lightwaves exist? and what exactly is light?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter the4thamigo_uk
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Light
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of light waves, specifically questioning whether a 'single' wavetrain of light can exist as a one-dimensional entity and the implications of such a concept on electromagnetic fields. Participants explore classical and quantum perspectives, the mathematical representation of light, and the physical interpretations of electromagnetic waves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question if a 'single' wavetrain of light can exist as a one-dimensional line, suggesting that classical electromagnetic theory may not support this idea.
  • Others argue that any electromagnetic wave can be decomposed into a superposition of plane waves, although the significance of this decomposition is debated.
  • There are claims that the electric and magnetic fields cannot vary discontinuously in charge-free space, which would violate Maxwell's equations.
  • Some participants propose that the existence of electromagnetic fields can be explained through underlying symmetries, such as gauge invariance, and conservation laws.
  • Disagreement arises regarding the interpretation of Fourier transforms of electromagnetic fields, with some asserting that these do not represent physically realizable waves.
  • Participants discuss the implications of localized waves containing a range of frequencies, leading to further debate on the nature of wave decomposition.
  • There is contention over whether the term "plane waves" should be used to describe the components of a Fourier transform, with some arguing it misrepresents the physical reality of electromagnetic waves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the existence of a 'single' wavetrain of light, the validity of wave decomposition, and the interpretation of Fourier transforms. The discussion remains unresolved with no clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the discussion, such as the dependence on definitions of waves and the mathematical treatment of electromagnetic fields. There are unresolved questions regarding the physical interpretation of theoretical constructs.

  • #31
htg said:
Consider a point source that starts to radiate at the time t=0. Clearly you cannot decompose this wave into plane waves, because plane waves have the full amplitude at t=0 as far from the point source as we wish.
This does not follow. The superposition of the waves can sum to 0 even though the individual basis functions are generally non-zero.
 
Science news on Phys.org
  • #32
DaleSpam said:
This does not follow. The superposition of the waves can sum to 0 even though the individual basis functions are generally non-zero.

We are talking about an L^2 (R^n) space here, and either about an orthonormal basis or about Fourier transform.
When you take a linear combination of basis elements, the L^2 norm of this combination is equal to SQRT(sum of squares of moduli of coefficients), so if at least one coefficient is non-zero, you get a non-zero linear combination.
Probably what you meant is that a non-trivial linear combination of basis functions can be zero on some proper subset of R^n.
And you still confuse waves and basis functions - IT IS NOT THE SAME.
 
  • #33
maxverywell said:
Why? I don't think so...

Consider the Fourier transform of restriction of sin(w*t) to an interval [a,b].
Ther Fourier transform decomposes this time-limited signal into a continuum of complex exponential functions defined on the whole real line. So if we want to say that they are signals, we must be able to detect them before our time-restricted signal began to be non-zero. Obviously it would violate causality.
 
  • #34
htg said:
Probably what you meant is that a non-trivial linear combination of basis functions can be zero on some proper subset of R^n.
Yes, I understood that to be your objection. That the basis functions were non-zero in a region far away from the origin at t=0 despite the fact that the function was 0 in that region.
 
  • #35
Fourier transform (as distinguished from Fourier series) does not decompose into basis functions. L^2 (R^n) is a countably dimensional space and has a countable basis.
 
  • #36
:rolleyes: So according to you we should not call them waves and we should not call them basis functions. What terminology would you prefer? I am out of good words.

If you don't want to decompose your EM functions then by all means don't do it. Nobody is forcing you to do so. But nothing you have said diminishes the utility of doing it. There is no requirement that basis functions be compact, nor that they be constrained to a specific frequency or wavelength, nor even that they be solutions to the same problem. And in this case they are mathematically plane waves.
 
  • #37
"components of the Fourier transform decomposition" is the proper term.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
11K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
647