Do you view fighting as a competition to see who is better?

[1MileCrash]

A disagreement arose from a discussion about fighting, with a close friend of mine.

It essentially boiled down to whether or not one would use a weapon (in the form of the environment, IE sand, a rock, stick) etc when defending yourself against someone as a way to disable them.

As I was growing up, I was in a fight every week. For this reason, I view fighting in a different light than most.

I would use anything to my advantage. Rocks, sand in the eye, whatever. My close friend said that he would not, saying that it takes more skill to not use those things and that he "wouldn't need to use them." Disabling the attacker with a rock, stick, whatever is a sign of "weakness."

I was completely taken back by what he said. It is not a game, it is not a competition to see who is better, it is you as a human defending yourself against an attacker. Any means necessary to disable the opponent and prevent further mindless violence.

That is my mindset - and I just could not understand his. People have glorified fighting it seems, especially when they are naive to what it really is. Your goal isn't to look cool in front of the people who may be watching the fight. Your goal is to get out unhurt. It's not a boxing match, it's real life.

I told him a very shameful story of when I was 16, in a diner at my hometown. I was cornered by three larger boys, I had no chance. One of them punched me in the face and I fell over a chair in the area. So, being the dumb kid I was, I got up, and I picked up one of those large metal napkin holders at restaurants, and split the guy's face open.

I then asked my friend the simple question:

When that guy was laying down, getting stitches on his bloody face in the hospital, do you think he thought "he used a napkin holder so I really won, and I am better" or do you think he thought "my face is killing me, I'm not messing with that guy again?"

 

[dydxforsn]

It's who you know that defines how good of a person you are.hah, sorry, couldn't resist that one :D

 

[caffenta]

A disagreement arose from a discussion about fighting, with a close friend of mine.

Maybe the both of youze should just beat each other senseless to see who wins.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You seem to be so proud that you were in a fight every week and broke some guy's nose, and then you complain about glorifying violence. Which is it? Wanna fighdaboudit?

Most people don't grow up fighting every week, neither do they glorify fighting.

 

[pergradus]

If I say I think you're full of it are you going to "pick up one of those large metal napkin holders at restaurants, and split my face open"?

 

[SprucerMoose]

As I was growing up...

Your post indicates you still have a long way to go.

 

[1MileCrash]

Fighting is glorified in the sense that people view it as a competition of skill, when it is not. People let their pride get in the way of their safety and the safety of others. Id rather disable an attacker with sand in the eyes rather than fist fight for 10 minutes. I don't care if I "could have" won, I just care about my safety.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I win as I skillfully avoid fights.

 

[lisab]

Fighting is glorified in the sense that people view it as a competition of skill, when it is not. People let their pride get in the way of their safety and the safety of others. Id rather disable an attacker with sand in the eyes rather than fist fight for 10 minutes. I don't care if I "could have" won, I just care about my safety.

I guess the answer to your question depends on the purpose of the fight. If you're fighting for sport, then there will be rules, written and unwritten. In that case, it's imperative to be a good sportsman and honor yourself and your opponent by following the rules.

But, if it's an actual street fight where your life is on the line...no holds barred! Use every trick you know, your job is to be alive and whole at the end of it.

 

[lisab]

I win as I skillfully avoid fights.

Excellent strategy .

 

[caffenta]

Fighting is glorified in the sense that people view it as a competition of skill, when it is not. People let their pride get in the way of their safety and the safety of others. Id rather disable an attacker with sand in the eyes rather than fist fight for 10 minutes. I don't care if I "could have" won, I just care about my safety.

If you care about your safety so much, why do you get in fights every week to begin with? Seems like you let your pride get in the way quite a bit.

 

[1MileCrash]

If you care about your safety so much, why do you get in fights every week to begin with? Seems like you let your pride get in the way quite a bit.

that was a long time ago.

 

[Norman]

He is talking about when he was a kid or teen.

There is a distinction that should be clear here, I think. When you get into fights as a kid, you are typically not in fear for your life. Yes it is scary and painful to get punched, but you are not likely to die. At least that is the way it was when I was a kid (I am 30). Yes I know the world has changed, it is more violent and we periodically here about childhood shootings. I don't think that is the norm, however. Bullying is a horrible reality for children. Everyone responds to the bullying differently. We all had our coping strategies. I was a stand up for myself and friends kind of kid. I wasn't tough either. So I took a lot of black eyes and swollen lips as a kid. I know where you are coming from 1MileCrash I think.

As an adult, if you are faced with a violent situation the likelihood of it being possibly fatal are drastically higher. Your number one objective in these situations is survival - by any means possible. There is no honor in a street fight. Your friend who thinks he should try to fight within some rules is an idiot. Plain and simple. He has obviously never been in a seriously dangerous life as an adult. You try to get space between you and an attacker by any means possible and then you run for your damn life.

 

[Pattonias]

If you fight for sport than you adhere to the rules to see who possesses the most skill.

When you are defending yourself you do whatever you have to to avoid harm to yourself.

I think you and your friend didn't come to an agreement on why you were fighting and I bet that your friend has never fought for the same reasons you did.

 

[SprucerMoose]

1Milecrash back in his prime.

Wouldn't want to mess with Andy.

 

[fillipeano]

Avoiding fights is always the best choice. Sounds so cliche but you know what, it's true.
If you ever are in a situation where it comes down to your defending your own life from an attacker, you should be doing whatever you can to end the fight quickly. Never be the one who throws the first punch, or else you'll be in a load of trouble.
Only fight back if it's in self-defense. Then you can use whatever skills you know to either fend the attacker off or disable them. You should never, and I mean never, beat them while their down.
Trust me on this one.

 

[Pattonias]

Avoiding fights is always the best choice. Sounds so cliche but you know what, it's true.
If you ever are in a situation where it comes down to your defending your own life from an attacker, you should be doing whatever you can to end the fight quickly. Never be the one who throws the first punch, or else you'll be in a load of trouble.
Only fight back if it's in self-defense. Then you can use whatever skills you know to either fend the attacker off or disable them. You should never, and I mean never, beat them while their down.
Trust me on this one.

That is a very good point. When defending yourself, if you disable your opponent, you should stop/flee. If you continue to pound on the person you are then putting yourself in the position to be in trouble with the law.

 

[nismaratwork]

Avoid a fight, as others have said, but once you engage... engage. If you need to settle a disagreement through force of arms, wrestle or something more structured. If you're defending your life, it's really very simple:

Face
Genitals
Extremities
Attack major blood vessels (not listing them)
Sever or otherwise disable ligaments and tendons
Organs

To me, this is is very simple: if I'm in a fight for my life, I'm either going to be dead in a very short period, or someone else will be dead or seriously injured. If someone attacks you and is TRULY disabled, I would tend to use a binding technique or joint lock. If the person is armed, then they're going to be Mozambiqued, so hitting them when down is a non-issue.

In a contest, a true contest... don't fight. Sports are not fights, even Pankratian. A fight, a true fight, is always a response to the level of violence offered, and anyone armed is fair game for an armed response. I have no mercy or sympathy for criminals who are under-armed, but if someone is down, don't hit them unless you're prepared to cripple or kill them. Then again, the one "street fight" I've been in began with someone kicking me in the *Car Horn*, and then ended with me striking the carotid sinus. He lived.

 

[Proton Soup]

don't forget to stick your little toe in their brachial plexus

 

[nismaratwork]

don't forget to stick your little toe in their brachial plexus

Yes... the Dim-Mak-Toe!

Personally, when it comes to the brachial plexus a good knee tends to do the job, but it's an EVVVVIIILLL thing to do in a friendly match. Long story short, my right arm like a noodle for about 30 minutes... OOOW.

 

[Loren Booda]

The two times I was attacked, I didn't fight back. Once was by a gang (who could have really hurt me, but didn't). The other was by a guy, 6'8", who broke my nose with a sucker punch (not that I could have done anything about that either).

My lesson is, one usually better off avoiding a fight. I had been a wrestler in high school, which is more of a gentleman's sport. I believe working on personal attitude is best -- some folks never get in a fight in the first place.

 

[nismaratwork]

The two times I was attacked, I didn't fight back. Once was by a gang (who could have really hurt me, but didn't). The other was by a guy, 6'8", who broke my nose with a sucker punch (not that I could have done anything about that either).

My lesson is, one usually better off avoiding a fight. I had been a wrestler in high school, which is more of a gentleman's sport. I believe working on personal attitude is best -- some folks never get in a fight in the first place.

'The fight you always win is the one you never have', no doubt about that. There is no joy in doing harm to another, including in self-defense and avoiding a fight is best. Running is the next best choice, because again, I'd rather run than hurt or be hurt for no good reason.

If you're cornered however, and your life is at risk... why wouldn't you defend yourself? I understand if resisting would be futile and only increase your risk, but if you have the capacity and you're set upon by a GANG...?

Oh, and I'm sorry that you were sucker-punched in the face... what a jerk. Sometimes people just do NOT think... and that's when we have manslaughter. What if, for instance, you'd fallen backward and cracked your head?... I'm not even a lawyer and I know about the "eggshell skull" example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

 

[Loren Booda]

What if, for instance, you'd fallen backward and cracked your head?... I'm not even a lawyer and I know about the "eggshell skull" example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

Thanks for your empathy. I had sometime considered such rule, now this casts it into law.

I believe I was sitting on a bench at a time. My skull sounded more like a wooden block than an eggshell.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks for your empathy. I had sometime considered such rule, now this casts it into law.

I believe I was sitting on a bench at a time. My skull sounded more like a wooden block than an eggshell.

Oh... he punched you in face and you were sitting DOWN?! He is one lucky man that he punched someone who is deeply non-violent. I'd say being that guy is punishment enough; what a scummy thing to do, and at 6'8"...

I have to ask, what the hell was his problem that he felt the need to strike someone seated who wasn't going to offer a fight?!

 

[Loren Booda]

I have to ask, what the hell was his problem that he felt the need to strike someone seated who wasn't going to offer a fight?!

I had manic depression, a medical condition, laughing hysterically then shutting up, laughing hysterically then shutting up. I probably was not taking my medicine as prescribed. There were a number of incidents of such behavior that could have potentially set him off.

For instance, someone pulled the fire alarm at night, and many residents gathered outside in their robes. I had a Jewish and an Iranian roommate (this was ~1981). I thought I heard someone say "Allah." Then someone say "Jehovah." A third said "Jesus." I thought it hilarious, in a respectful way. So who must have pulled the alarm, the laughing man?

__________

After he punched me he said "do you understand?" I have never understood. The campus police I was hanging out with told me to look in the bathroom mirror. When I saw blood streaming from my nose, I started crying. To make a long story short, I ended up at St. Elizabeth's hospital in Washington, DC.

Aside: in a neighboring dormitory where I lived the next year, who should be the security guard?

 

[mathwonk]

I used to get in fights, and I took them as a competitive macho game. Once I got beat up pretty badly, partly because I let the other guy up after having him down, he was very strong, and partly because I was not quite sober. After that I decided I would only fight when it mattered, and then I would fight all out. That was 45 years ago, and I have not been in a fight since.

I honestly thought you were also going to say after your introductory remarks,"... and now I don't fight anymore." Think about it. You have a lot of energy and power that you are wasting in frustration against people who have no role in what is frustrating you.

Figure it out and direct that energy toward your goal. Don't "pour your water into the sand".

 

[rootX]

Other than one or two rare cases that I can't recall, I never fought or got into any argument.

 

[nismaratwork]

I had manic depression, a medical condition, laughing hysterically then shutting up, laughing hysterically then shutting up. I probably was not taking my medicine as prescribed. There were a number of incidents of such behavior that could have potentially set him off.

For instance, someone pulled the fire alarm at night, and many residents gathered outside in their robes. I had a Jewish and an Iranian roommate (this was ~1981). I thought I heard someone say "Allah." Then someone say "Jehovah." A third said "Jesus." I thought it hilarious, in a respectful way. So who must have pulled the alarm, the laughing man?

__________

After he punched me he said "do you understand?" I have never understood. The campus police I was hanging out with told me to look in the bathroom mirror. When I saw blood streaming from my nose, I started crying. To make a long story short, I ended up at St. Elizabeth's hospital in Washington, DC.

Aside: in a neighboring dormitory where I lived the next year, who should be the security guard?

Wow, I don't know this guy and I already hate him. Still, a very good reason to only act in defense... words are good for pretty much everything else.

mathwonk: I call that growing up... good for you.

 

[IMP]

What if the opponent was a hungry mountain lion? Would using sand or sticks be a "sign of weakness" in that case? Why does it matter what the threat is, if it is truly life or death, anything goes. If it is not life or death, I agree that there are certain unwritten rules, a fighters etiquette if you will. Some things should be left off the table, even at the expense of loosing the fight. A mountain lion knows nothing of etiquette, anything goes...

 

[nismaratwork]

What if the opponent was a hungry mountain lion? Would using sand or sticks be a "sign of weakness" in that case? Why does it matter what the threat is, if it is truly life or death, anything goes. If it is not life or death, I agree that there are certain unwritten rules, a fighters etiquette if you will. Some things should be left off the table, even at the expense of loosing the fight. A mountain lion knows nothing of etiquette, anything goes...

There is no such thing as etiquette in a REAL fight, which is why they should be avoided at nearly all costs. If they cannot be, that's why I personally believe that decisive action is key: train how you fight, unless you want to play.

If you and the person you're fighting have agreed on "unwritten rules", you don't need to be fighting.

 

[mathwonk]

Here's my favorite macho fighting story. forgive me if i have told you this already. My friend, a big rowdy outdoors type who is now a preacher, was in the army and drinking at a bar when another nearby soldier was bragging about how tough he was. My friend got tired of it and invited him outside. As they went out the door the other guy started taking off his jacket, and just at that crucial moment when his hands were both behind his back, my buddy brought a roundhouse blow up from the floor and landed it right on his chin... The guy shook it off, finished taking off his jacket, grabbed my pal's head under his arm and started whaling on him big time. My friend looked up from under the guys pounding, and prudently remarked, "you know buddy, you are every bit as tough as you said you were. Come on back inside and let me buy you beer!"

 

[DanP]

A disagreement arose from a discussion about fighting, with a close friend of mine.

It essentially boiled down to whether or not one would use a weapon (in the form of the environment, IE sand, a rock, stick) etc when defending yourself against someone as a way to disable them.

As I was growing up, I was in a fight every week. For this reason, I view fighting in a different light than most.

I would use anything to my advantage. Rocks, sand in the eye, whatever. My close friend said that he would not, saying that it takes more skill to not use those things and that he "wouldn't need to use them." Disabling the attacker with a rock, stick, whatever is a sign of "weakness."

I was completely taken back by what he said. It is not a game, it is not a competition to see who is better, it is you as a human defending yourself against an attacker. Any means necessary to disable the opponent and prevent further mindless violence.

That is my mindset - and I just could not understand his. People have glorified fighting it seems, especially when they are naive to what it really is. Your goal isn't to look cool in front of the people who may be watching the fight. Your goal is to get out unhurt. It's not a boxing match, it's real life.

I told him a very shameful story of when I was 16, in a diner at my hometown. I was cornered by three larger boys, I had no chance. One of them punched me in the face and I fell over a chair in the area. So, being the dumb kid I was, I got up, and I picked up one of those large metal napkin holders at restaurants, and split the guy's face open.

I then asked my friend the simple question:

When that guy was laying down, getting stitches on his bloody face in the hospital, do you think he thought "he used a napkin holder so I really won, and I am better" or do you think he thought "my face is killing me, I'm not messing with that guy again?"

Fighting a street fight is stupid. If you have a choiche, run like hell.

If it is necessary to fight, then the right mind set is to use all you have, including weapons. If you can grab a bottle and hit with it , do it. Dont hesitate. Kick the groin, bite, use small joint manipulation, knees and elbows where you see fit. If you need to break an arm to get away, then break it. Hit early, hit hard. Then run :P And be aware that the other person may be equally determined to finish you with any means whatsoever at its disposal. The right mindset is not self defense. It's battle.

All fights, even sanctioned combat sports fights are pretty chaotic events. This is even more true in street fights, where no rules apply. Never expect the other person to fight after what you think are "gentleman rules". Those do not apply in the streets. You never know what's coming for you in a street fight.

Always try to make sure that you don't only survive a fight, but also that you can survive the legal aftermath of a fight too.

If you want to see "who is better", take a combat sport and fight in a ring. Again, do avoid at any price fighting in the streets. An edged weapon or a hot weapon can kill you pretty easy, no matter how much Muay Thai or BJJ you know. It happens seldom to fall victim to such an attack, but it can happen.

 

[nismaratwork]

Fighting a street fight is stupid. If you have a choiche, run like hell.

If it is necessary to fight, then the right mind set is to use all you have, including weapons. If you can grab a bottle and hit with it , do it. Dont hesitate. Kick the groin, bite, use small joint manipulation, knees and elbows where you see fit. If you need to break an arm to get away, then break it. Hit early, hit hard. Then run :P And be aware that the other person may be equally determined to finish you with any means whatsoever at its disposal. The right mindset is not self defense. It's battle.

All fights, even sanctioned combat sports fights are pretty chaotic events. This is even more true in street fights, where no rules apply. Never expect the other person to fight after what you think are "gentleman rules". Those do not apply in the streets. You never know what's coming for you in a street fight.

Always try to make sure that you don't only survive a fight, but also that you can survive the legal aftermath of a fight too.

If you want to see "who is better", take a combat sport and fight in a ring. Again, do avoid at any price fighting in the streets. An edged weapon or a hot weapon can kill you pretty easy, no matter how much Muay Thai or BJJ you know. It happens seldom to fall victim to such an attack, but it can happen.

Run like hell, always a wise choice if it's possible! Another point I appreciate: no matter how skilled, if you're in a knife fight you're in trouble in all kinds of ways. On the other hand, if you run like hell, even if you're armed, you've protected yourself legally, morally, and in every other sense. If you then have turn and open fire, it is out of absolute necessity, and not a desire to harm or see harm done. I agree with literally everything you said, and the spirit in which you've said it.

@Mathwonk: Wow... your friend thinks well under pressure!

 

[Pattonias]

Here's my favorite macho fighting story. forgive me if i have told you this already. My friend, a big rowdy outdoors type who is now a preacher, was in the army and drinking at a bar when another nearby soldier was bragging about how tough he was. My friend got tired of it and invited him outside. As they went out the door the other guy started taking off his jacket, and just at that crucial moment when his hands were both behind his back, my buddy brought a roundhouse blow up from the floor and landed it right on his chin... The guy shook it off, finished taking off his jacket, grabbed my pal's head under his arm and started whaling on him big time. My friend looked up from under the guys pounding, and prudently remarked, "you know buddy, you are every bit as tough as you said you were. Come on back inside and let me buy you beer!"

Yep, a good fight story.

 

[turbo]

I never started a fight. And though I was small for my age all through elementary and HS, I never lost a fight, either. The fights weren't about "who is better". They were only about some older and/or larger kid finding an "easy" mark to pound on for fun. Good luck explaining your new black eye or missing tooth to your parents.

My old man was in Airborne in WWII and he instilled some attitudes in me that helped me survive being a runt. I could run like hell (and captained the cross-country team in HS), but running doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to stand and face it. Best not to lose, and best to decisively defeat your assailant - especially with lots of witnesses.

BTW, I was in a couple of absolutely needless fights, when creeps egged new kids in town to fight me (for their own entertainment). By the time I was in my teens, older kids knew not to screw with me, but new kids in town didn't.

Most of the guys around my age or a bit older have spent time in prison, and one is serving a life sentence for an ax murder. Growing up in a very poor community with lots of broken homes is probably about the same everywhere, race aside. Plunk some inner-city slum-dweller down in my old home town, and they would have known the ropes right away.

 

[nismaratwork]

I never started a fight. And though I was small for my age all through elementary and HS, I never lost a fight, either. The fights weren't about "who is better". They were only about some older and/or larger kid finding an "easy" mark to pound on for fun. Good luck explaining your new black eye or missing tooth to your parents.

My old man was in Airborne in WWII and he instilled some attitudes in me that helped me survive being a runt. I could run like hell (and captained the cross-country team in HS), but running doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to stand and face it. Best not to lose, and best to decisively defeat your assailant - especially with lots of witnesses.

BTW, I was in a couple of absolutely needless fights, when creeps egged new kids in town to fight me (for their own entertainment). By the time I was in my teens, older kids knew not to screw with me, but new kids in town didn't.

Most of the guys around my age or a bit older have spent time in prison, and one is serving a life sentence for an ax murder. Growing up in a very poor community with lots of broken homes is probably about the same everywhere, race aside. Plunk some inner-city slum-dweller down in my old home town, and they would have known the ropes right away.

Tolstoy might be right at the familial level, but yeah, poor and desperate is the same everywhere I've seen it and been in the midst of it. There was an especially odd period when Cabrini Green in Chicago felt about the same and operated on similar principles as rural Guatemala.

 

[DanP]

Good luck explaining your new black eye or missing tooth to your parents.

If you are lucky, your old man will just teach you how to fight and some basic psychology of the street fight.

Sometimes you have to stand and face it. Best not to lose, and best to decisively defeat your assailant - especially with lots of witnesses.

Like I said, if its inevitable, give them hell. It's not an eye for an eye, it's two eyes for one.
When others know you are a menace willing to break their bones, they'll think twice before attacking you again. Most of them at least, a minority won't be impressed. In my neighborhood the ppl determined to fight knew a very basic truth of fighting, that there is no magic bullet against multiple opponents :P (unless you are attacked by sheep) So if they really wanted to get you, they wouldn't care how though you are, they would simply gang you up on street after you got out of a club. Knowing ppl was useful.

However, I would still advise anyone who asks me about street fighting to run if you have the option. Unfortunately, I had an acquittance who was killed in a street fight (killer was apprehended), and one who was so badly beaten that he required brain surgery and he has sequels for life. The police never found who did him.

By the time I was in my teens, older kids knew not to screw with me, but new kids in town didn't.

It usually works that way. By the time the winter holiday in my 9th grade came, everybody in the school knew who you can mess with and with who you could not. There where some rare upsets, but for the better part of the next 4 years till HS ended everybody knew his place.

 

[mathwonk]

If you have only defended yourself in school, fighting may seem cool or necessary, but it really is something to learn to avoid. you never know who that stranger is. Again at the risk of repeating my favorite stories, before i completely got religion, for 2 years I took a job as a meat lugger in South Boston, unloading 400 pieces of meat, each weighing around 175 pounds and up per day. The heaviest piece of meat I ever held and moved briefly weighed 305 lbs. In those days I could lift a 250 lb man off his feet and carry him. I also kept a meat hook in my belt loop.

I also had long hippie hair and one day I felt ornery and put a rose behind my ear and went walking, looking for trouble. A couple of construction workers up on a ladder took the bait and one said: " hey somebody grab that hippie and give him a big kiss". I said: "come on down, you might catch a surprise." They did not come down.

that also taught me a lesson. Fighting is often about insecurity. My job and the strength it gave me made me so confident I exuded an aura that said it would be unwise to attack me.

the other guys on my job were far tougher than I. Most had done time, and went in and out of jail regularly. I occasionally gave guys a ride to the hospital to visit friends who "argued with knives and lost". We lost one man each year I was there to homicide. One of our smaller guys, weighed 165 pounds soaking wet, could out lug every one of us, was a karate expert and an accurate knife thrower. He once carried a 365 pound fore quarter out of a railroad car on his shoulder alone. One night he was murdered in his sleep. In those days I had no physical fear of anyone, foolishly of course. Even the toughest guys warned me how helpless I would be if I went to prison.

My dad also carried a gun everyday of his life, slept with two of them, and had shot a man in a gun battle in his youth. We had a shooting range in our basement and at the age of 10, I could disassemble a 45 automatic pistol and switch out the barrel for a 22 blindfolded. My dad also owned what would technically be considered a sawed off shotgun, subsequently outlawed.

You absolutely never know who you are challenging if you provoke a fight, nor what they are prepared to do.

As I became more enlightened I learned not even to be in the vicinity of place where a fight might arise, and to live in a peaceful environment at all times, or as much as possible.

 

[DanP]

If you have only defended yourself in school, fighting may seem cool or necessary, but it really is something to learn to avoid.

I agree. With the risk to repet myself for the 3rd time, if you have the option to get away safely, doit. If you can't get away from it, your first concern should be to **avoid** going hand to hand against anyone and use a weapon. Hand to Hand should be only a last resort option, and anyone would be well advised if during any phase of the fight an opportunity to safely clear the scene arises, just take the it.

You absolutely never know who you are challenging if you provoke a fight

Nor who attacks you. Nor what weapons they carry.

...nor what they are prepared to do

Remember Ryan Gracie ? One of the more volatile members of the Gracie family. That guy had a 2nd degr black belt in BJJ and world class expertise in Vale Tudo fights. Well, when he got in an altercation in a club, he used a knife and stabbed his opponent. Simple, efficent, why even bother to use a submission to subdue and potentially fall prey to your opponent knife ? Later, in 2007 he stole a car, and again used a knife. He injured a 76 years old man with it, according to Brazilian newspapers. So yeah, if someone with world class expertise in fighting is prepared to use a knife ...

Some ppl are prepared to do very bad things to you. It's a lottery. Many will argue that meeting a psycho willing to maim or kill you is a small chance. That you will fight against street loosers who can only throw haymakers at you. It ain't so. I say it very much depends of where you are and with who you are. Don't make such bets with luck.

 

[nismaratwork]

If you are lucky, your old man will just teach you how to fight and some basic psychology of the street fight.



Like I said, if its inevitable, give them hell. It's not an eye for an eye, it's two eyes for one.
When others know you are a menace willing to break their bones, they'll think twice before attacking you again. Most of them at least, a minority won't be impressed. In my neighborhood the ppl determined to fight knew a very basic truth of fighting, that there is no magic bullet against multiple opponents :P (unless you are attacked by sheep) So if they really wanted to get you, they wouldn't care how though you are, they would simply gang you up on street after you got out of a club. Knowing ppl was useful.

However, I would still advise anyone who asks me about street fighting to run if you have the option. Unfortunately, I had an acquittance who was killed in a street fight (killer was apprehended), and one who was so badly beaten that he required brain surgery and he has sequels for life. The police never found who did him.



It usually works that way. By the time the winter holiday in my 9th grade came, everybody in the school knew who you can mess with and with who you could not. There where some rare upsets, but for the better part of the next 4 years till HS ended everybody knew his place.

I think this is where people who have experience with firearms have an advantage in their thinking. Your attitude, that basic psychology you mention, I know it's not just posturing or "cute"... it's quite necessary. With a gun, people are taught: draw when you mean to shoot ONLY, aim only at what you are prepared to destroy. A knife is pretty self-explanatory in terms of its risks, but fists and the environment often do NOT come with a guide.

Like any other escalation to violence, it is inherently unpredictable and therefore, "on" and "off" your SD training should be IT. As you say, it's not about reciprocal justice, but staying alive and minimizing harm done to yourself. All other good options do NOT involve fighting. It's cheering to see someone I often disagree with take such an enlightened view, and I wanted to acknowledge that.

Mathwonk: I often carry a sidearm, and as you say the reality of life is that you just hope to do everything short of drawing it. That being said, your point about insecurity has a flipside:

DanP pointed out the "Everyone knew their place" in HS, and I had the same experience. I've had one fight in a school in my life, and I didn't start it... a really mentally disturbed kid started by whacking me in the face with his trombone case. I had never fought before, and I was MUCH bigger than him, so I just whacked him with my backpack (very young remember) until he calmed down.

In HS, I was a big guy, but not the biggest or strongest. Beyond that, we all knew who those guys were who would SNAP... because big, small, strong, weak... nobody wants a piece of the unpredictability of "crazy". There is an element of comfort in not NEEDING or wanting to fight, but some people seem to need that implied structure DanP refers to. In the context of other animals, the most efficient means to "fight" is just what you describe: make a display to set yourself apart and when confronted in a ritualistic manner, overcome. You only run into trouble with that if someone feels cornered for whatever reason, and then we go back to running.

edit: Danp: Don't bet with luck... I like that. I think that's why most reasonable people who are concerned for that carry a sidearm, myself included. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and always tap your magazine. I'll run anytime, but just as it's been said... I'm not going to outrun any of the Gracies!

 

[mathwonk]

good point nismarat. i am addressing only the title topic: fighting to prove you are "better" than someone else. this is a sure sign of insecurity, and i have certainly suffered from it. defending yourself is another matter. i am just saying if you restrict your fighting strictly to self defense, avoiding macho posturing, most of us will have extremely few fights.

 

[nismaratwork]

good point nismarat. i am addressing only the title topic: fighting to prove you are "better" than someone else. this is a sure sign of insecurity, and i have certainly suffered from it. defending yourself is another matter. i am just saying if you restrict your fighting strictly to self defense, avoiding macho posturing, most of us will have extremely few fights.

Agreed 100%

 

[DanP]

good point nismarat. i am addressing only the title topic: fighting to prove you are "better" than someone else. this is a sure sign of insecurity, and i have certainly suffered from it. defending yourself is another matter. i am just saying if you restrict your fighting strictly to self defense, avoiding macho posturing, most of us will have extremely few fights.

Causes of aggression and all components which may modulate an aggressive behavior are too complex to be reduced to "insecurity".

A big part of the aggressive acts which do happen are of instrumental nature. The purpose of those behaviours is not to harm another persons, it is to secure another important goal. Agression in those cases is just a mean to an end, not an end in itself.

And aggression is not always physical. Nowadays in our society due to the social constrains, aggression is most of the time expressed verbally and sometimes indirectly. Because you can get away easier with it than with physical aggression. But for me, there aint such a great difference between the two. Pummeling someone psychologically is sometimes as effective as physical aggression in producing pain. And you see this done in our society sometimes. In various places. In most cases the purpose of this kind of aggression is instrumental. It has nothing to do with simple "insecurities"

But this is going away from the purpose of the thread.

 

[nismaratwork]

Causes of aggression and all components which may modulate an aggressive behavior are too complex to be reduced to "insecurity".

A big part of the aggressive acts which do happen are of instrumental nature. The purpose of those behaviours is not to harm another persons, it is to secure another important goal. Agression in those cases is just a mean to an end, not an end in itself.

And aggression is not always physical. Nowadays in our society due to the social constrains, aggression is most of the time expressed verbally and sometimes indirectly. Because you can get away easier with it than with physical aggression. But for me, there aint such a great difference between the two. Pummeling someone psychologically is sometimes as effective as physical aggression in producing pain. And you see this done in our society sometimes. In various places. In most cases the purpose of this kind of aggression is instrumental. It has nothing to do with simple "insecurities"

But this is going away from the purpose of the thread.

Is it?... You've made me re-think that 100%, although I'd say that a lot of that agression is based in a sense of insecurity.

Maybe... add, "unsure of social/physical hierarchy"... some people aren't comfortable unless they know they can kick someone's butt, or visa versa. The psychology of the fight seems cenral to the thread... if you have more, and it's cool with the mentors... could you elaborate?

 

[DanP]

Maybe... add, "unsure of social/physical hierarchy"... some people aren't comfortable unless they know they can kick someone's butt, or visa versa.

True, but it doesn't come necessarily from an insecurity. Some ppl arent comfortable either if they don't know they can beat someone in a chess game, or get a better grade at school, or play violin better than others, whatever. It is not always the result of insecurity. While those are wildly different behaviors (fighting and chess playing ) the need to know you are better than another one is rooted in status seeking strategies. In the need of humans to place themselves in a high place in at least one of the many different social hierarchies offered by the very complex social organization we have.

The psychology of the fight seems cenral to the thread... if you have more, and it's cool with the mentors... could you elaborate?

Yes. One of the most common causes of aggression is pain. Take any mammal and cause him enough pain and you will get an aggressive response from him. Humans make no exception. But our social organization complicates things. For humans, pain can embrace social forms too. Social pain caused by various social conditions and social stressors can easily generate aggressive behaviors. And because you can't take it off on "society", it often results in displacement aggression. You will direct the aggressive behavior on someone else. This can take a multitude of forms, ranging from indirect and verbal aggression at work or at home, bullying someone , or downright look for a fight. IMO this is one of the leading causes for the hostile aggression (not instrumental one ) you see in the streets.

 

[nismaratwork]

True, but it doesn't come necessarily from an insecurity. Some ppl arent comfortable either if they don't know they can beat someone in a chess game, or get a better grade at school, or play violin better than others, whatever. It is not always the result of insecurity. While those are wildly different behaviors (fighting and chess playing ) the need to know you are better than another one is rooted in status seeking strategies. In the need of humans to place themselves in a high place in at least one of the many different social hierarchies offered by the very complex social organization we have.

True, although I would say that the mechanism used to induce that behavior is a sense of unease or insecurity. It hopefully evolves in time to be a simple contest, but I look at a sense of insecurity like Dopamine... juts the spur that drives us to the behaviours you described. Not the only one, but it's a strong one; it's a terrible feeling to be out of place or uncertain.

Then agian, you have ritual hazing, and that's a perfect model of the social-acceptance/hierarchy you're talking about.

Yes. One of the most common causes of aggression is pain. Take any mammal and cause him enough pain and you will get an aggressive response from him. Humans make no exception.

True, and I assume the implication that flight is not an option. I'd add, it's not just mammals... reptiles are a fine example of this behavior. Leave them be, and the vast majority of them leave you be. Step on one, or just confuse it and you end up on the sharp end of something. I'd add: protecting its young... from crocodilian chirping for "mom", to a human cry... nothing will turn someone vicious more than protecting their child.

But our social organization complicates things. For humans, pain can embrace social forms too. Social pain caused by various social conditions and social stressors can easily generate aggressive behaviors. And because you can't take it off on "society", it often results in displacement aggression. You will direct the aggressive behavior on someone else. This can take a multitude of forms, ranging from indirect and verbal aggression at work or at home, bullying someone , or downright look for a fight. IMO this is one of the leading causes for the hostile aggression (not instrumental one ) you see in the streets.

True, and this is generally the kind of "bar fight" that emerges once alcohol lowers inhibitions.

 

[DanP]

True, although I would say that the mechanism used to induce that behavior is a sense of unease or insecurity.

Perhaps state anxiety would describe it better then. If you refer to insecurities as colloquial I usually understand from it cognitive anxiety. And surely cognitive anxiety can generate such behaviors. Because worrying too much or harboring too many negative thoughts is IMO a stressor which results in pain.

But in the behaviors I mention there needs not to exist any cognitive anxiety. That's it, you function perfectly cognitively, you are not worried of elusive negative thoughts or other chimeras.

State anxiety does exist, but is not IMO the generator of the behavior. State anxiety is temporary, ever-changing emotional state , which is associated with the degree of activation of the autonomic nervous system. Rather than generating the behavior, the modulations in state anxiety are the result of the behavior and of the interaction of the with the environment. IMO, there is no need for any cognitive anxiety to exist for a person to exhibit status seeking behaviors. And perhaps state anxiety is also a important adaptive signal. High state anxiety is there to tell you to cease to exhibit a non-adaptive behavior and re-evaluate the situation.

Of course, trait anxiety also plays a big role. If your personality structure has high trait anxiety, you will be more likely to perceive normal situations, which are not actually dangerous from physical or psychological point of view as threatening. So its pretty clear that is an important factor in the modulation of the behavior.

It hopefully evolves in time to be a simple contest

As I said, I don't think there is a very high difference between wanting to smash someone's face or wanting to utterly destroy him in a chess game. The difference resides perhaps in more developed PFC, which allows you to express the hostile intent in a social accepted way. Harboring any of those two desires it's still about aggression IMO. About being the better one. But it is displayed differently.

Then agian, you have ritual hazing, and that's a perfect model of the social-acceptance/hierarchy you're talking about.

This is indeed one phenomena which can be explained through cognitive dissonance theory (and implicitly, the part of the dopaminergic system which deals with reward. ), but it is not one related to status seeking. It just explains why ppl which went through a hazing feel such strong ties to the group which whey where allowed to join.

 

[nismaratwork]

Perhaps state anxiety would describe it better then. If you refer to insecurities as colloquial I usually understand from it cognitive anxiety. And surely cognitive anxiety can generate such behaviors. Because worrying too much or too harbouring many negative thoughts is IMO a stressor which results in pain.

But in the behaviors I mention there needs not to exist any cognitive anxiety. That's it, you function perfectly cognitively, you are not worried of elusive negative thoughts or other chimeras.

State anxiety does exist, but is not IMO the generator of the behavior. State anxiety is temporary, ever-changing emotional state , which is associated with the degree of activation of the autonomic nervous system. Rather than generating the behavior, the modulations in state anxiety are the result of the behavior and of the interaction of the with the environment. IMO, there is no need for any cognitive anxiety to exist for a person to exhibit status seeking behaviors.

Of course, trait anxiety also plays a big role. If your personality structure has high trait anxiety, you will be more likely to perceive normal situations, which are not actually dangerous from physical or psychological point of view as threatening. So its pretty clear that is an important factor in the modulation of the behavior.

The anxiety may be relatively fleeting, but it leaves insecurity in its wake. In general, anxiety of ANY kind isn't really an emotional state, but a state of "fight or flight". By definition, anxiety can always turn on a dime, and if you add alcohol you get some fairly ridiculous fights. Is it necessary?... No.

To me this is right up there with nature/nurture... I don't disagree with you, yet people add such an odd set of variables to the mix. To be clear, I'm obviously excepting those with various executive function deficits. I think one of the major factors in violent escalation is a simple lack of awareness of potential consequence, or an emotional state which impairs that analysis. On the other hand... trait anxiety... fair enough that, and arguably an adaptation.

This is indeed one phenomena which can be explained through cognitive dissonance theory (and implicitly, the part of the dopaminergic system which deals with reward. ), but it is not one related to status seeking. It just explains why ppl which went through a hazing feel such strong ties to the group which whey where allowed to join.

It does, but it also sets a standard of commitment which you have to have to form those bonds. It's a short and rough manner of weeding out, "non-hackers". Certainly it also forms ties, but generally as part of a "back story" created to resolve the cognitive dissonance. You either commit, or retreat... then you stick with what you "chose", and the pain adds perceived value through the mechanism you describe.

I'd add... it may not be popular, but there is clearly a strong "nature" end to this, and while profound it's unclear just how the "nurture" end works. Then of course, there is calculated aggression as a means of taking territory and general intimidation along the "gang war" model. This is closely associated with cycles of reciprocal violence and a heightened social tension that both alerts to potential conflict, and escalates it rapidly.

Finally... guns, knives, sticks... the first time a weapon came into play, the game changed. A small skilled knife-fighter of any gender can take your liver before you know what's happening. How we as people react to this, hmmm... let's call it a "spontaneous social symmetry breaking"... the Higgs Effect of aggression. Now in the age of projectile weapons, there is a kind of added mass to any conflict because the possibility of decisive and lethal force is always possible. I'm not just talking about guns... a brief examination of the history of the crossbow for instance shows the fear and outrage among a previously "invulnerable" class.

 

[Containment]

To me it's about restraint because fights aren't always over after the fight ends. If you do fight someone and use dirty methods you may "win the battle" however if you run into that person again you may "lose the war". I personally don't defend my self in fights as the person fighting you is almost always not out to kill you or other wise they would have came up from behind and just stabbed you or something. What's the point of fighting the person if it's just going to make them more angry and possibly get you in trouble with the law ect? I mean sure there are times where I might defend my self but in general I think it will work out better long term not to. If you take any respectable type of karate they will teach you that fighting is a no win situation and you should always avoid it. Also I think most people give up fighting you fast if you show that your not afraid to die right then and there as most of the fighting is just about getting a jolly out of it and you don't get joy from beating something that is easy to beat.

 

[nismaratwork]

To me it's about restraint because fights aren't always over after the fight ends. If you do fight someone and use dirty methods you may "win the battle" however if you run into that person again you may "lose the war". I personally don't defend my self in fights as the person fighting you is almost always not out to kill you or other wise they would have came up from behind and just stabbed you or something. What's the point of fighting the person if it's just going to make them more angry and possibly get you in trouble with the law ect? I mean sure there are times where I might defend my self but in general I think it will work out better long term not to. If you take any respectable type of karate they will teach you that fighting is a no win situation and you should always avoid it. Also I think most people give up fighting you fast if you show that your not afraid to die right then and there as most of the fighting is just about getting a jolly out of it and you don't get joy from beating something that is easy to beat.

Hmmm, well I'm afraid to die! I think that would encapsulate the totality of my feelings on the subject.

 

[Containment]

Well I didn't say you had to not be afraid to die just show it lol :) You ever see animals play dead before?

Actually that wouldn't be that bad of a study idea I'd like to see how often playing dead pays off vs trying to run for a rabbit or what ever.