Does Destructive Interference Cancel Energy?

AI Thread Summary
Destructive interference does not cancel energy; rather, it redistributes it. When two waves perfectly cancel each other at a point, the forces acting on that point are balanced, resulting in zero net force, but the medium remains in motion, carrying kinetic energy. The energy is conserved, either moving elsewhere or converting into another form. In scenarios involving standing waves, energy can build up in specific patterns, with nodes experiencing low energy and antinodes high energy. Overall, while forces may cancel at the moment of destructive interference, the energy persists in the system.
Chris Frisella
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Does it cancel it, or just create an equilibrium of forces upon a point(s)?

Example: If you had a string and you sent a wave down one end, and the opposite wave from the other, once they meet there will be an instant when the string is flat as if there had never been waves introduced. But, if you were to analyze the fibers and molecules of the string at the point of the interference, would you find that they were under more "stress" (or just more energized) than a string without any waves in it, or does the energy actually cancel at that moment leaving the string stress/energy free and just as it was before the waves were presented?
 
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The question of stresses on the fibres is better framed in terms of forces which do in fact cancel.
 
houlahound said:
The question of stresses on the fibres is better framed in terms of forces which do in fact cancel.

Ok, so you're saying that the string wouldn't have and forces/stress/whatever at that moment, and the fibers/molecules would basically be like they were before any waves were present?
 
For a perfectly uniform string yes, if no then as long as the fibres have not exceeded their elastic limit then yes.
ETA forces are present, the net force is zero.
 
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houlahound said:
For a perfectly uniform string yes, if no then as long as the fibres have not exceeded their elastic limit then yes.
ETA forces are present, the net force is zero.
Ok. What are ETA forces?
 
Note your OP is poorly constructed and leaves a lot of wiggle room. You did not define the phase, frequency and amp.

Google standing wave to see a better question.

ETA, did I just make a pun, wiggle/wave...get it.
 
houlahound said:
Note your OP is poorly constructed and leaves a lot of wiggle room. You did not define the phase, frequency and amp.

Google standing wave to see a better question.

ETA, did I just make a pun, wiggle/wave...get it.
I'm not talking about standing waves. I just want to know if when two identical waves destructively interfere with each other perfectly, does the energy/force at that moment vanish, or is it just bound up...?
 
Two identical waves can never destructively interfere. Tighten up your question.
 
houlahound said:
Two identical waves can never destructively interfere. Tighten up your question.

Two identical waves 180 degrees out of phase. That better?
 
  • #10
Then there is no energy propagating from the source.
 
  • #11
Would it help to think of a speaker as source of sound and the waves driving the speaker.
 
  • #12
houlahound said:
Would it help to think of a speaker as source of sound and the waves driving the speaker.

I don't get the complication you're adding to this. Simple: There is destructive interference. There is total destructive interference. All I want to know is does the energy at that moment vanish or is it bound up in the medium...?
 
  • #13
Bound up??Vanish?
 
  • #14
houlahound said:
Bound up??

Yeah, like if two men are pushing against each other (let's imagine sumo wrestlers) with the same force they don't go anywhere. However, there is a lot of pressure and energy being exerted. They are bound up against each other. The force is still there even though they are not moving. In destructive interference, is it like the sumo wrestlers in a sense, or does force actually cancel out at the moment of destruction?
 
  • #15
As previously stated the net force is zero hence the particle feels no interaction.
 
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  • #16
houlahound said:
As previously stated the net force is zero hence the particle feels no interaction.
Thank you
 
  • #17
Chris Frisella said:
would you find that they were under more "stress" (or just more energized) than a string without any waves in it, or does the energy actually cancel at that moment leaving the string stress/energy free and just as it was before the waves were presented?
The string is moving. It has kinetic energy.

Energy is conserved. In destructive interference energy is always either moved elsewhere or converted into some other form.
 
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  • #18
Your question makes more sense when electromagnetic waves are considered. In quite a number of interference cases, energy is 100% conserved, and whenever there is a cancellation from destructive interference, there are necessarily brighter spots in the energy pattern where constructive interference is occurring. This is the case for both multi-slit interference as well as Fabry-Perot type interference and Michelson interferometer type interference.
 
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  • #19
Dale said:
The string is moving. It has kinetic energy.

Energy is conserved. In destructive interference energy is always either moved elsewhere or converted into some other form.
At last! :smile:
The OP is actually describing of a standing wave, involving two waves, traveling in opposite directions. He is denying it because he isn't coming from that direction in his description but, nonetheless, that's what he is describing. Very often, a standing wave occurs due to reflection at each end. What's being described here is a standing wave that's sustained by two energy sources, one each end. The displacement at each end is kept at zero and energy is fed into the system, building up with no limit (in an ideal case). In practice, the natural losses will impose a maximum amount of energy stored in the standing wave when the power supplied is the power lost to the surroundings. The standing wave is the same as an interference pattern from two sources (only it's in just one dimension). In nodes, the energy density is low (zero), where there is cancellation and maximum in the antinodes where there is enhancement.
 
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  • #20
Something that tends to be ignored about standing waves. You HAVE to acknowledge that Energy must be leaking out of the resonator or it will build up without limit. It's not a problem with 2D Interference patterns because the Energy always goes somewhere (the screen or free space. All resonators lose a fraction of their energy every cycle. Either 1/10, 1/100, 1/1000000 but that is what limits the peak energy.
 
  • #21
sophiecentaur said:
At last! :smile:
The OP is actually describing of a standing wave, involving two waves, traveling in opposite directions. He is denying it because he isn't coming from that direction in his description but, nonetheless, that's what he is describing. Very often, a standing wave occurs due to reflection at each end. What's being described here is a standing wave that's sustained by two energy sources, one each end. The displacement at each end is kept at zero and energy is fed into the system, building up with no limit (in an ideal case). In practice, the natural losses will impose a maximum amount of energy stored in the standing wave when the power supplied is the power lost to the surroundings. The standing wave is the same as an interference pattern from two sources (only it's in just one dimension). In nodes, the energy density is low (zero), where there is cancellation and maximum in the antinodes where there is enhancement.

Ok, but I'm really just thinking of a single pulse from each end-- one pulse up, and the other down. When they meet there will be destructive interference. I'm still a bit wondering what's going on in that very instant that they perfectly cancel each other out, leaving just a straight string. It makes more sense now though.
 
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  • #22
Chris Frisella said:
Ok, but I'm really just thinking of a single pulse from each end-- one pulse up, and the other down. When they meet there will be destructive interference. I'm still a bit wondering what's going on in that very instant that they perfectly cancel each other out, leaving just a straight string. It makes more sense now though.
You had the answer to that question up near the top, I think. There may be no displacement where they cross but the string will still be moving and carrying Kinetic Energy in that particular portion, briefly.
 
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  • #23
Chris Frisella said:
once they meet there will be an instant when the string is flat

Dale said:
The string is moving. It has kinetic energy.

Chris, you stated yourself that the string is only flat for an instant. That implies that it never stopped moving. Therefore, the energy does not cancel, and it is expressed through the motion of the string. Analysis of the string's molecules at the moment of destructive interference would reveal that they are indeed under stress due to the fact that they are in motion. The forces are what cancel at that moment.
 
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  • #24
G Cooke said:
Chris, you stated yourself that the string is only flat for an instant. That implies that it never stopped moving. Therefore, the energy does not cancel, and it is expressed through the motion of the string. Analysis of the string's molecules at the moment of destructive interference would reveal that they are indeed under stress due to the fact that they are in motion. The forces are what cancel at that moment.
Yeah, I get this better now :) Thanks
 
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  • #25
sophiecentaur said:
There may be no displacement where they cross but the string will still be moving and carrying Kinetic Energy in that particular portion, briefly.

Yes, I get this better now. Thank you
 
  • #26
Chris with respect it may help in future questions to realize physics involves real objects with constraints. Answers are specific to the set up of the system and the constraints.
 
  • #27
houlahound said:
Chris with respect it may help in future questions to realize physics involves real objects with constraints. Answers are specific to the set up of the system and the constraints.
Of course.
 
  • #28
Chris Frisella said:
Does it cancel it, or just create an equilibrium of forces upon a point(s)?

Example: If you had a string and you sent a wave down one end, and the opposite wave from the other, once they meet there will be an instant when the string is flat as if there had never been waves introduced. But, if you were to analyze the fibers and molecules of the string at the point of the interference, would you find that they were under more "stress" (or just more energized) than a string without any waves in it, or does the energy actually cancel at that moment leaving the string stress/energy free and just as it was before the waves were presented?

Please read this:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/energy-and-interference.129649/#post-1069202

Zz.
 
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  • #30
@Chris: It may be a bit late to be introducing this fundamental characteristic of waves, in general but all waves involve the variation in time and space of some form of Potential Energy plus some form of Kinetic energy. Water waves, for instance, involve moving water and water being raised and lowered. Sound waves involve variations in pressure and speed of air flow. EM waves involve Electric fields (Potential) and Magnetic fields (a Kinetic form of energy). The Energy is carried in both forms and can often be 'shared' unequally. Hence your zero displacement and high velocity where your two pulses pass each other. The Energy is still there.
 
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  • #31
sophiecentaur said:
@Chris: It may be a bit late to be introducing this fundamental characteristic of waves, in general but all waves involve the variation in time and space of some form of Potential Energy plus some form of Kinetic energy. Water waves, for instance, involve moving water and water being raised and lowered. Sound waves involve variations in pressure and speed of air flow. EM waves involve Electric fields (Potential) and Magnetic fields (a Kinetic form of energy). The Energy is carried in both forms and can often be 'shared' unequally. Hence your zero displacement and high velocity where your two pulses pass each other. The Energy is still there.

That's interesting! Cool.
 
  • #32
An interesting case can occur with electromagnetic waves where the destructive interference between two waves occurs for an entire region, e.g. on a Michelson interferometer or a beamsplitter with two separate coherent sources. The destructive interference can occur over the entire direction so that no energy goes to that side, and all the energy winds up on the other side. By adjusting the phase of one of the sources (by ## \pi ##), all of the energy can be made to go to the side that originally had zero energy. Here we have complete wave cancellation (from two sources going in the same direction that are ## \pi ## out of phase with each other) without any energy passing into the region at all. Unlike the case of the waves on a string, where energy is necessarily passing through the point, in this case there simply is no energy present because of the destructive interference. The energy occurs in the region where the waves have constructive interference, where the sources are in phase with each other. ## \\ ## (Additional detail: For the case of two coherent sources incident on a beamsplitter, it is an asymmetric problem because one face of the beamsplitter typically has an AR (anti-reflection coating). All of the partial reflection/partial transmission occurs off of only one face. The other face has 100% transmission. The reflection incident from the air side gets an extra ## \pi ## phase change because it is off of a more dense medium. Essentially, the two coherent beams can be combined into one by such a configuration. In one direction off of the beamsplitter, the partially transmitted wave and the other partially reflected wave are made to be ## \pi ## out of phase. In the other direction they will be in phase. For a 50-50 energy split (R=1/2), the fresnel reflection coefficient ## \rho=+/- 1/\sqrt{2} ##.) ## \\ ## One additional item: For a single source, the energy gets split 50-50 between the two directions from the beamsplitter. When the second source is turned on, coherent effects occur and there is no longer a 50-50 energy split for each source. Complete wave cancellation can occur in one direction with 100% of the energy going to the other direction. It is wave cancellation, but could not be called energy cancellation. (There's no such thing as negative energy in a wave.) The problem is a very simple linear one for the wave from each source. The resulting waves from each source are superimposed and then the energy is computed.
 
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  • #33
Charles, That's some revealing data. Thanks...

I get the essence of all that, however I don't quite get some of the finer points you made:

Charles Link said:
(Additional detail: For the case of two coherent sources incident on a beamsplitter, it is an asymmetric problem because one face of the beamsplitter typically has an AR (anti-reflection coating). All of the partial reflection/partial transmission occurs off of only one face. The other face has 100% transmission. The reflection incident from the air side gets an extra π \pi phase change because it is off of a more dense medium.

Perhaps a diagram would be helpful here so I could see the arrangement of this device. Wouldn't all beams experience the same amount of phase change if they are all interacting with the same medium in the splitter?
 
  • #34
Chris Frisella said:
Charles, That's some revealing data. Thanks...

I get the essence of all that, however I don't quite get some of the finer points you made:
Perhaps a diagram would be helpful here so I could see the arrangement of this device. Wouldn't all beams experience the same amount of phase change if they are all interacting with the same medium in the splitter?
The beamsplitter is at a 45 degree angle. (slope=+1) One beam comes from the top of the paper. One beam from the right. Two receivers: One on the left and the second at the bottom. The beams are mutually coherent plane waves. One finer point you might have missed is mentioned in the details of the previous post that one of the reflections gets a ## \pi ## phase shift, which is essentially a minus sign. This can be seen at normal incidence where ## \rho=(n_1-n_2)/(n_1+n_2) ## (n's are indices of refraction). ## \rho ## from one direction is positive and from the other it is negative. ## \rho=E_r/E_i ## is the fresnel reflection coefficient for the electric field amplitude. The negative ## \rho ## (the minus sign ) is the same as a ## \pi ## phase shift. The same thing happens at 45 degree angle of incidence (the minus sign for ## n_2>n_1 ##), that happens at normal incidence,although the expressions for ## \rho ## become more complex (at 45 degrees and at any other angles of incidence). The materials can be chosen to make the energy reflection coefficient ## R=1/2 ## at 45 degrees, so that ## \rho=+1/\sqrt{2} ## or ## \rho=-1/\sqrt{2} ##. It turns out, the composite transmission coefficient ##\tau=E_t/E_i=1/\sqrt{2} ## for both beams (when ## R=1/2 ## ) so that you can readily compute the emerging E fields. The two sources can be assumed to have some arbitrary phase difference ## \phi ## , although the calculation is simplest if they are either assumed to be in phase with each other or ## \pi ## out of phase. In one case all the energy goes to one receiver, and in the other case it all goes to the other receiver. You can assume the top surface has the AR coating (beamsplitter is finite width), so that the reflection of the beam incident from the right will have an extra ## \pi ## phase change. When the two sources start out in phase, this makes them destructively interfere on the path to the bottom receiver, so that all the energy goes to the left where the two sources are in phase. One thing I should add is to compute the intensity (power) ## I=n E^2 ## (i.e. it is proportional to ## n E^2 ##. (In optics, the calculations for intensity are often done in this fashion without the additional constants that are in the Poynting vector for power. And n=1 for air.) You can write the amplitudes for the different wave components and compute the energy at the two receivers. e.g. for the bottom receiver ## E_{Bottom}=(1/\sqrt{2}-1/\sqrt{2})E_o=0 ##(one component is transmitted from the top and the other reflected from the right). For the left receiver ## E_{Left}=(1/\sqrt{2}+1/\sqrt{2})E_0=\sqrt{2}E_0 ## (one component is transmitted from the right and the other reflected from the top) and we see our final intensity at the left receiver ## I_{Left}=(\sqrt{2}E_0)^2=2 E_0^2 ## which is the sum of the intensities of the two initial beams ## I_0=E_o^2 ## for each. (Note for the above energy reflection coefficient ## R=I_r/I_i=E_r^2/E_i^2=\rho^2 ##. Notice also when there are two coherent sources, the energy reflection coefficients ## R ## can not be used to compute the resulting energy distribution (this system is not linear in its energy properties, but is completely linear in regard to the E fields), but the ## \rho ## 's computed from the ## R ## are completely valid for doing the computation.) @Chris Frisella It's quite a lot of detail, but hopefully you can at least follow some of it.
 
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  • #35
Charles Link said:
The beamsplitter is at a 45 degree angle. (slope=+1) One beam comes from the top of the paper. One beam from the right. Two receivers: One on the left and the second at the bottom. The beams are mutually coherent plane waves. One finer point you might have missed is mentioned in the details of the previous post that one of the reflections gets a ## \pi ## phase shift, which is essentially a minus sign. This can be seen at normal incidence where ## \rho=(n_1-n_2)/(n_1+n_2) ## (n's are indices of refraction). ## \rho ## from one direction is positive and from the other it is negative. ## \rho=E_r/E_i ## is the fresnel reflection coefficient for the electric field amplitude. The negative ## \rho ## (the minus sign ) is the same as a ## \pi ## phase shift. The same thing happens at 45 degree angle of incidence (the minus sign for ## n_2>n_1 ##), that happens at normal incidence,although the expressions for ## \rho ## become more complex (at 45 degrees and at any other angles of incidence). The materials can be chosen to make the energy reflection coefficient ## R=1/2 ## at 45 degrees, so that ## \rho=+1/\sqrt{2} ## or ## \rho=-1/\sqrt{2} ##. It turns out, the composite transmission coefficient ##\tau=E_t/E_i=1/\sqrt{2} ## for both beams (when ## R=1/2 ## ) so that you can readily compute the emerging E fields. The two sources can be assumed to have some arbitrary phase difference ## \phi ## , although the calculation is simplest if they are either assumed to be in phase with each other or ## \pi ## out of phase. In one case all the energy goes to one receiver, and in the other case it all goes to the other receiver. You can assume the top surface has the AR coating (beamsplitter is finite width), so that the reflection of the beam incident from the right will have an extra ## \pi ## phase change. When the two sources start out in phase, this makes them destructively interfere on the path to the bottom receiver, so that all the energy goes to the left where the two sources are in phase. One thing I should add is to compute the intensity (power) ## I=n E^2 ## (i.e. it is proportional to ## n E^2 ##. (In optics, the calculations for intensity are often done in this fashion without the additional constants that are in the Poynting vector for power. And n=1 for air.) You can write the amplitudes for the different wave components and compute the energy at the two receivers. e.g. for the bottom receiver ## E_{Bottom}=(1/\sqrt{2}-1/\sqrt{2})E_o=0 ##(one component is transmitted from the top and the other reflected from the right). For the left receiver ## E_{Left}=(1/\sqrt{2}+1/\sqrt{2})E_0=\sqrt{2}E_0 ## (one component is transmitted from the right and the other reflected from the top) and we see our final intensity at the left receiver ## I_{Left}=(\sqrt{2}E_0)^2=2 E_0^2 ## which is the sum of the intensities of the two initial beams ## I_0=E_o^2 ## for each. (Note for the above energy reflection coefficient ## R=I_r/I_i=E_r^2/E_i^2=\rho^2 ##. Notice also when there are two coherent sources, the energy reflection coefficients ## R ## can not be used to compute the resulting energy distribution (this system is not linear in its energy properties, but is completely linear in regard to the E fields), but the ## \rho ## 's computed from the ## R ## are completely valid for doing the computation.) @Chris Frisella It's quite a lot of detail, but hopefully you can at least follow some of it.

Haha, yeah, that is a lot of data! Thank you for your help and energies. I follow it ok. Few fast (hopefully) questions:

1) So one reason for the phase offset between the two sources is one of the reflected beams has to travel through the medium twice, thus giving it greater phase change?

2) The actual amount of phase change is dependent on the width and material properties of the splitter, correct?

3) You say the reflection coefficient R can't be used to compute with when you have two sources. This is because the two sources interfere thus canceling out one of the reflected paths, correct?

Simple answers please! ;)
 
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  • #36
Chris Frisella said:
Haha, yeah, that is a lot of data! Thank you for your help and energies. I follow it ok. Few fast (hopefully) questions:

1) So one reason for the phase offset between the two sources is one of the reflected beams has to travel through the medium twice, thus giving it greater phase change?

2) The actual amount of phase change is dependent on the width and material properties of the splitter, correct?

3) You say the reflection coefficient R can't be used to compute with when you have two sources. This is because the two sources interfere thus canceling out one of the reflected paths, correct?

Simple answers please! ;)
1) Good question=the top source in both cases has one extra length through the beamsplitter over the source from the right, regardless of which direction it goes. The (phases of the) sources are assumed to be adjusted for any phase difference because of this. The relative phases can be considered to be measured at the point where the sources are each incident on the reflective (lower) beamsplitter surface.## \\ ## 2) Correct, but the answer to question (1) answers this. ## \\ ## 3) Yes. If you used energy coefficients, (energy coefficients work if there is no coherence, e.g. if the alignment is not precise and/or or the sources are not mutually coherent ), the computation says the energy split is 50-50 for each source=no interference. Meanwhile, Maxwell's equations, which govern the electric fields are completely linear (thereby the system is said to be linear), but since the energy equations (i.e. (energy) intensity ## I=n E^2 ##) are second order in the linear parameter ## E ##, the system is not required to be linear in energy. In cases where there is no interference, the systems are normally also linear in their energy properties.
 
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  • #37
If you call the ground level = 0 energy level, and you dig a hole in it, you can call the whole -1 energy level and the dirt next to the hole +1 energy level. When you put the dirt back in the hole, it all goes back to 0, but you didn't really destroy the dirt. Just another way to look at it.
 
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  • #38
Charles Link said:
1) Good question=the top source in both cases has one extra length through the beamsplitter over the source from the right, regardless of which direction it goes. The (phases of the) sources are assumed to be adjusted for any phase difference because of this. The relative phases can be considered to be measured at the point where the sources are each incident on the reflective (lower) beamsplitter surface.## \\ ## 2) Correct, but the answer to question (1) answers this. ## \\ ## 3) Yes. If you used energy coefficients, (energy coefficients work if there is no coherence, e.g. if the alignment is not precise and/or or the sources are not mutually coherent ), the computation says the energy split is 50-50 for each source=no interference. Meanwhile, Maxwell's equations, which govern the electric fields are completely linear (thereby the system is said to be linear), but since the energy equations (i.e. (energy) intensity ## I=n E^2 ##) are second order in the linear parameter ## E ##, the system is not required to be linear in energy. In cases where there is no interference, the systems are normally also linear in their energy properties.

Good, good! Thanks.

When you are speaking of linear vs non linear you mean in terms of energy distribution within the system, right? The system as a whole would always be linear in the sense that whatever the source energies times time add up to will equal the total energy of the system (considering a closed system where nothing leaks out). However there could be a nonlinear relationship in where the energy is directed; example the beam splitter with two sources and interference.
 
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  • #39
IllyaKuryakin said:
If you call the ground level = 0 energy level, and you dig a hole in it, you can call the whole -1 energy level and the dirt next to the hole +1 energy level. When you put the dirt back in the hole, it all goes back to 0, but you didn't really destroy the dirt. Just another way to look at it.
I like it :)
 
  • #40
Chris Frisella said:
Good, good! Thanks.

When you are speaking of linear vs non linear you mean in terms of energy distribution within the system, right? The system as a whole would always be linear in the sense that whatever the source energies times time add up to will equal the total energy of the system (considering a closed system where nothing leaks out). However there could be a nonlinear relationship in where the energy is directed; example the beam splitter with two sources and interference.
Yes. Correct. The energy is conserved but the energy distribution is not linear. This is actually quite remarkable because if you have a single source on, one half the energy goes to receiver A and one half to receiver B. Turning on a second source can redirect all of the energy to one of the receivers.
 
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  • #41
Charles Link said:
Yes. Correct. The energy is conserved but the energy distribution is not linear. This is actually quite remarkable because if you have a single source on, one half the energy goes to receiver A and one half to receiver B. Turning on a second source can redirect all of the energy to one of the receivers.
Ya it is!
 
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  • #42
Chris Frisella said:
Ya it is!
One more comment on this one: The amplitude of the sum of the two wave components was easy to compute on this one because the two components were either in phase or 180 degrees out of phase. Otherwise, if the two differ by some arbitrary phase, e.g. ## E_{sum}=Acos(\omega t)+Bcos(\omega t +\phi) ## you could add them using trigonometric identities and/or a phasor diagram. For arbitrary phase and amplitude, the energy is found to be distributed between the two receivers.
 
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  • #43
Consider two transmitters generating two superimposed electric fields :
E1 = sin(ωt)
E2 = sin(ωt + π).
These fields cancel everywhere yet there are two waves being generated by two transmitters, each with their own Poynting vectors. The Poynting vectors are both positive: P = E x H. Although they cancel everywhere, the two waves exist as if the other weren't there. That's what superposition, the linear addition of functions, is.

Note that they CAN be individually detected, e.g. by a phase-sensitive field strength meter referenced to one of their phases. Assume the meter is referenced to E1, thent the readings of the meters are
V1 = 1
V2 = -1
ignoring constants. Neither meter reads 0.
Same holds for acoustic, light etc. Two waves canceling each other but each individually generating power.These fields are propagating energy thruout space
 
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  • #44
rude man said:
Consider two transmitters generating two superimposed electric fields :
E1 = sin(ωt)
E2 = sin(ωt + π).
These fields cancel everywhere yet there are two waves being generated by two transmitters, each with their own Poynting vectors. The Poynting vectors are both positive: P = E x H. Although they cancel everywhere, the two waves exist as if the other weren't there. That's what superposition, the linear addition of functions, is.

Note that they CAN be individually detected, e.g. by a phase-sensitive field strength meter referenced to one of their phases. Assume the meter is referenced to E1, thent the readings of the meters are
V1 = 1
V2 = -1
ignoring constants. Neither meter reads 0.
Same holds for acoustic, light etc. Two waves canceling each other but each individually generating power.These fields are propagating energy thruout space
This one I disagree with. If they are spatially separated, they do not cancel everywhere. There will be regions of constructive interference, and the total energy/power will be conserved. If the two sources are at the same location in space, nothing is being generated.
 
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  • #45
Charles Link said:
This one I disagree with. If they are spatially separated, they do not cancel everywhere. There will be regions of constructive interference, and the total energy/power will be conserved. If the two sources are at the same location in space, nothing is being generated.
2 identical transmitters face each other, pi phase difference. At the exact mid-point the resultant is zero for all time yet the signals can independently be detected by phase-sensitive meters.
 
  • #46
rude man said:
2 identical transmitters face each other, pi phase difference. At the exact mid-point the resultant is zero for all time yet the signals can independently be detected by phase-sensitive meters.
They are thereby spatially separated. It will be possible to find locations where the signals from the two sources are 90 degrees out of phase. At these locations the phase sensitive detection will be able to observe a single source and not see the other one. (This is not the case at a location where the signals are 180 degrees out of phase. When they are 180 degrees apart at the same amplitude, nothing will be observed, with or without phase sensitive detection. If they are different amplitudes and 180 degrees apart, the phase detector will not know what the amplitude of the individual sources is . Meanwhile, if the signals are in phase with each other at a given location, phase sensitive detection can not separate them.)
 
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  • #47
Charles Link said:
They are thereby spatially separated. It will be possible to find locations where the signals from the two sources are 90 degrees out of phase. At these locations the phase sensitive detection will be able to observe a single source and not see the other one. (This is not the case at a location where the signals are 180 degrees out of phase. When they are 180 degrees apart at the same amplitude, nothing will be observed, with or without phase sensitive detection. If they are different amplitudes and 180 degrees apart, the phase detector will not know what the amplitude of the individual sources is . Meanwhile, if the signals are in phase with each other at a given location, phase sensitive detection can not separate them.)
I have to admit, that makes sense.
 
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  • #48
Charles Link said:
One more comment on this one: The amplitude of the sum of the two wave components was easy to compute on this one because the two components were either in phase or 180 degrees out of phase. Otherwise, if the two differ by some arbitrary phase, e.g. ## E_{sum}=Acos(\omega t)+Bcos(\omega t +\phi) ## you could add them using trigonometric identities and/or a phasor diagram. For arbitrary phase and amplitude, the energy is found to be distributed between the two receivers.

What if you had 2 sources and beam combiner, making only one beam, which was adjusted to create total destructive interference? Since the beams don't overlap anywhere until they pass through the combiner, and there is only one beam made by the combiner, I don't know if you'd see any constructive interference to balance the loss from destructive. Perhaps the combiner element would just heat up?
 
  • #49
Chris Frisella said:
What if you had 2 sources and beam combiner, making only one beam, which was adjusted to create total destructive interference? Since the beams don't overlap anywhere until they pass through the combiner, and there is only one beam made by the combiner, I don't know if you'd see any constructive interference to balance the loss from destructive. Perhaps the combiner element would just heat up?
Perhaps the easiest way to create two mutually coherent sources is to first split a source with a beamsplitter and then recombine the beams with a second beamsplitter (using, of course, mirrors to steer the beams, etc.). You never get destructive interference on both receivers after the second beamsplitter. The ## \pi ## phase change for the reflection that starts with the incident beam in air (as opposed to the reflection inside the beamsplitter) makes it so that the case of complete destructive interference on both receiver arms never occurs. The power distribution at the receivers is determined by the relative phases of the two sources. There is complete energy conservation for every possible choice of phase. For a zero phase difference, the beams recombine completely at one receiver, and for a ## \pi ## phase difference, they completely recombine at the other receiver. ## \\ ## Incidentally, you may find it of interest that the Michelson interferometer is an apparatus just like the 2-beamsplitter apparatus just mentioned where the same beamsplitter is used twice: first, to split the beam, and then again, to recombine the beams after they each reflect off of one of the mirrors. The presence of the outgoing beam (=beam being split) on the beamsplitter does not affect the reflections that take place for the beams as they are being recombined=the fresnel coefficients work for the individual components, just as if it were an apparatus with two separate beamsplitters.
 
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  • #50
There is an equivalent to this with radio frequency signals. To get the geometry for cancellation to occur everywhere, it is obvious that the two sources have to be co-sited. Optically, this is not achievable perfectly. But it can the achieved at RF by having two antenna (say dipoles) very close together - or, better still, use the same antenna. So you need no power to be transmitted from this single antenna, yet have two transmitters 'feeding' it. That means all the power from each transmitter needs to be absorbed by the other transmitter. That only requires the transmitters to produce the same amplitude signals in antiphase. There will be zero volts driving the antenna so no power will be radiated. But energy has not been destroyed or eliminated. All the Power will have been dissipated within the output resistances of two transmitter amplifiers. Not the first instance of a transmitter with zero efficiency!
 
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