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Does 'God' exist?

  1. Jun 24, 2003 #1
    God in my opinion is just a made up figure which people used to explain things that they do not understand. Or to control people.

    Mostly, I created this topic because I would like to know what the hell the problem is with all these hardcore christians that seem to ignore evolution despite scientific evidence. There's also the fact that it is the only theory of where we came from that makes sense. I will be talking about the Christian version of God in this topic. However, I don't believe in any God, period.

    This just makes me sick:

    If you're too lazy to read this, I'll point out some of the more astonishing parts.

    A paragraph written by a christian, apparently trying to persuade teachers and parents and whatnot to NOT teach of evolution, and instead teach christianism:

    As a Creation Scientist, one of my greatest duties that I take great pleasure in is introducing the works of the Lord to the young generation. The sparkle of wonderment that fills their eyes in knowing the creative power of God fills my heart with the Lord's divine Love. It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that? Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.

    Heres a peice of the paragraph: It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that?
    So basically, hes telling me to fight the 'ignorance' of evolutionism with ignorance and blind faith. Sounds like a plan.

    Hmm let me pull out another part: Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.

    WHAT NERVE THIS MAN HAS! Referring to Evolutionism as dogma, while supporting the topic of Christianism? Now last time I checked, the definition of dogma was - A religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof. Well thats funny, there is plenty of proof supporting evolutionism (see links). But wait..where is the proof that god exists?
    Where is the proof that most of the stuff that happened in the bible was caused by a divine source or even really happend. (Yes I can believe that some things in the bible could have actually occured, but everything can be explained scientifically. BTW did anyone see that discovery speical on The Exodus? It explained rationally how all of the plagues in the bible could have occured and lots of other good stuff.)

    Some christian organization gave prizes to kids with science fair boards dealing with christian views and beliefs. Here are a couple winners from the middle school level:

    1st Place: "Life Doesn't Come From Non-Life"
    Patricia Lewis (grade 8) did an experiment to see if life can evolve from non-life. Patricia placed all the non-living ingredients of life - carbon (a charcoal briquet), purified water, and assorted minerals (a multi-vitamin) - into a sealed glass jar. The jar was left undisturbed, being exposed only to sunlight, for three weeks. (Patricia also prayed to God not to do anything miraculous during the course of the experiment, so as not to disqualify the findings.) No life evolved. This shows that life cannot come from non-life through natural processes.

    Wow, the 8th grader shoved some nonliving stuff in a jar and expected or believed that someone would expect the material to turn to life. And she got a 1st place medal for it.

    2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"
    Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences shows that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.

    The fact that a 7th grade boy is being rewarded for expressing a sexist view makes me want to throw up.

    Anyway, I would like to here your opinions on this subject. Im not sure if it has been discussed many times before on this board. If it has, I apoligize. I personally think its very iteresting how some people can isolate themselves from science in ignorance like this.


    Proof supporting evolution
    - This site explains how fossil, molecular, biogeographic, and comparative anatomical studies provide evidence for evolution: www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/04/
    - This page provides some of the evidence for evolution
    and the common ancestry of all life on earth: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
    - Another great page on evolution: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

    Articles NOT supporting Evolution
    - An article titled Evolution is a BIG LIE, with a few quotes and passages from the bible: http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/EvolutionisaBIGLIE.html
    - An article which seems to start out with a nuetral postion regarding the bible and evolution, then takes the side of the bible about a quarter of the way through stating that the theory of evolution 'lacks proof':
    - And my personal favorite, an article that suggests that Darwin, and his theories are responsible for Adolf Hitler's holocaust and many other horrers:

    More articles/links
    A simple search on google will give you all the links you need :)
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 24, 2003 #2


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    first, general discussion probably isn't the best place for this.

    but i always find it ironic that they encourage a certain line of thought to discredit science, when that line of thought would be better suited to discredit their own beliefs. and those science fair awards are just sick.
  4. Jun 24, 2003 #3
    there have been several links to sites like this in PF history, and each one pisses me off more. these people have the audacity to broadcast their ignorance to kids all around the world who are obviously not at the level to understand evolution.

    you should have put this in philosophy or religon forums, by the way.
  5. Jun 24, 2003 #4
    oh, i didnt even know there was a religion forum. I didnt exactly know where to put this. Can a mod move my topic to the rightful place, or do I delete this thread and create a new one in the appropriate forum?
  6. Jun 24, 2003 #5
    just wait a while and a mentor will move it. no, hold on. i'll try to call one.
  7. Jun 25, 2003 #6
    Does God exist? Yes.

    Can people be duped into believing God exists without having a basis for accepting that belief? Yes. It's called "blind faith."

    This is why other people have such an aversion to it.
  8. Jun 25, 2003 #7
    This is actually well written and, although this may be one of the dupes I'm referring to above, I don't see that it's any worse than the rhetoric I've heard in favor of Science. There are obviously points to be made here. The only thing that really makes it a difficult pill to swallow is the "religious bias."

    Whereas the only thing I'm really in favor of arguing for here is morals and ethics. Because if there were no "hereafter" we wouldn't need them. Or else what would be the point?
  9. Jun 25, 2003 #8
    does god exist? un answered.

    this is unanswerable becuase people have blind faith and say he does exist but cannot prove it. people without faith say he does not exist but cant prove it. and seeing as god (if he exists) hasnt seen fit to offer us any proof of his existence we dont know either way. i say he does not exist becuase: A:there is no proof of his existence, B: science can explain almost everything, and we are working on finding explainations for the rest.

    so why the need for a god?
  10. Jun 25, 2003 #9
    Re: Re: Does 'God' exist?

    you should have put, IMO, yes.
  11. Jun 25, 2003 #10
    Yes, but who has to prove it and to whom? Ultimately the burden of proof lies with "you," the individual.

    Why the need for understanding the nature of order? Especially when it comes to our "inherent need" for morality. Because if life were to "drop off" after death, with no memory of it, what purpose would it serve? There would be no need for morals in the here and now, and no need for them in the hereafter. Likewise, the "Karma of life" would have no means by which to complete itself.
  12. Jun 25, 2003 #11
    But if He does exist, and there's a means of ascertaining it (for oneself), then what other answer could I possibly give? But then again I couldn't expect somebody else to accept it upon my say so. :wink:

    I only put it this way to suggest that we inquire about it a little more "deeply."
  13. Jun 25, 2003 #12

    that's right, there is no need for morality (in the long run). there is no purpose to life. and i don't believe in karma.

    just my humble opinion...
  14. Jun 25, 2003 #13
    Then there's no need for being humble about it either.
  15. Jun 25, 2003 #14
    One thing that is obvious to me about sites like you pointed to is that it is all about mind and thought control. The Christians (with a capital C) are out to control the minds of children to follow their dogma. One of the most used tactics for this in any war over minds is to accuse the opposition of doing exactly what they, the Christians, are trying to do. This averts the subjects attention so they can slip in and start controlling their minds and opinions; and, you have to start when they're young.
    If the subject, sap or dupe happens to feel the they are being manipulated hopfully they will think that it is the opposition doing it rather than them and therefore cling to them for protection even more tightly.
    It is not just the Christians that do this. The Democrats and Republican do it in this country. The communist and facist do it and have done it in all countries. Remember Hitlers youth camps. It is very machiavellian and every power group that tries to control people and their thoughts do it and use it including the scientific community.
    If you don't know what machiavellian means read "The Prince" by Machiavelli. I think that it should be required reading by every 11 or 12 grader or at least every freshman in college. But then that would be giving away their secrets wouldn't it. And, yes, Academia uses it too.
  16. Jun 25, 2003 #15


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    Well, if you look at it in that way, then I can understand your conclusion. I mean for all we know, the point to everything is:

    1) Universe is born
    2) Life/conciousness is born
    3) Life evolves, constantly improving itself
    4) Life reaches a point where it is smart enough to improve itself (ie. Computers)
    5) Life learns how to spread life to other parts of the universe.

    Perhaps, there is no god. And maybe there is no point to being moral and decent people. But then again, lets do it any damn ways and make the most out of this existance that we all can 100% agree on exists.

    And technology is advancing us so far, in such a small amount of time. Think about, since the time of jesus, up to the industrial revolution, things pretty much stayed the same. Anyone who disputed the law/king/religion was killed, slavery run rampant, education halted, and I'm certain crime was a way of life, not just a few out of a thousand. In a very short amount of time, we've advanced further then any other species we know of. We did all this, with out god.

    See, I've said it before, if a person needs to believe in an altered reality in order to be a decent person, by all means do so. Do not try to force your altered reality on others. It is your own means of doing what is needed. Some people believe there has to be a god in order for there to be good. Others, who don't see a need for a god can still be good.

    Perhaps, our purpose is to find a way to put an end to this atrocity? There is much work now in controlling computers with human minds. I'm sure it wouldn't be entirely impossible to back up a person's mind to some extent.

    I know one thing. If we, and I mean all of us, do not do something to promote education to every person on earth, we're not going to survive. You keep blinding people with unprovable concepts and your religion's prophecy is sure to come to pass. Someone with a big nuke will see to it I'm sure.

    And then again, maybe god does exist. Perhaps, he would like to see us be able to take care of ourselves. Maybe he held off the final step of revelations to see if we can figure things out on our own. I'd say were doing a pretty good job, to such an extent god would be a fool to kill us off now.
  17. Jun 25, 2003 #16
    Personal experience aside, assuming that absolutely nothing existed before the Universe (space-time) it's just as likely that a concious being (God) existed and created everything as it is that some hydrogen gas just sort of popped into existence and started inflation. It would make sense, if this God created everything, that he would keep tabs on it afterwards. I've seen plenty of evidence for his existence myself but that's another story....
  18. Jun 25, 2003 #17
    here's what i ask: where does a god fit it?

    for the non-science types this is obvious. god is everything and everywhere and has no limit to his power. he makes things happen, so to speak. but to the religious scientist where does he fit in. if you believe and accept the process of physics and evolution, and the nature of the universe, what place is there for a god. the more you accept science, it seems, the farther you push the existance of a god. in the end (if you are very scientifically knowledgable) what's left for him to do? the creation moment? anything else? is he responcible for our existance, or was it an matter of propobility? if he did create us (with all the laws of probobility still existing and not being infringed upon) what does that imply? is there universal intention, and if so, wouldn't this violate the Uncertainty Principle? or do you not believe that?

    i'm honestly currios, so please answer freely
  19. Jun 26, 2003 #18
    And to whom do we give all the credit? Ourselves? That's what it sounds like.

    But that doesn't make any sense. There's nothing "rational" about a statement that suggests no means to end. We just do it for the sake of doing it? Sounds kind of quirky to me. :wink:

    And how are you sure we didn't achieve these things with some "outside help?" :wink:

    And yet what is the point of "doing good," if it doesn't fulfill any good?

    Which atrocity is that?

    But why should we care, if it's all an illusion? Or, maybe just a big joke?

    If there were life after death then it wouldn't matter would it? Then again I don't suppose it would either way, depending on how you look at it.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2003
  20. Jun 26, 2003 #19
    yes and no?

    there are many gods and even the bible says that. controversy please. they created we humans as an experiments and then we must mutiply...craziness right?
  21. Jun 26, 2003 #20
    First, I want to make clear that this is my belief only. I'm not trying to sell it or convert anyone nor can I prove any of it. This is the religious Form so I don't think I'm being out of line by stating my beliefs and you asked, maximus, not just here but in another thread.

    God exists and created the universe. As I've said before in other threads, God said; "Let there be light." = Big Bang.

    God is logical, rational and purposful.

    He created the universe with logic, rationalism, and purpose.
    The physical laws that we are discovering and determining were all made by God when he created the universe. This is why the universe is logical, mathimatical and ordered and not chaos.

    It is God the Holy spirit that controls, governs and pervades the universe.

    Our bodies are evolved on earth from more primative forms of life due to God's purpose imprinted on the force of life itself and our DNA which is inherited from the first single cell that lived on earth. How this original DNA came about is still open to question in my mind.
    Was it created and then the earth when ready infected with it? Was it brought to earth via comet or meteor? Did it evolve here on earth by God's will and is unique to earth? I don't know the answers to these questions nor have I settled my mind about them.

    As I said our bodies are evolved. Our spirit is of the spirit of God and will upon our physical death return to God. Our soul is created and bestowed upon us individually at the first sign of our showing possession of wisdom as young children; ie, we are human beings and not human animals, (See my thread "The Trinity of Man and God") It is our soul that continues on after the death of our physical body.

    Our purpose here in this life is, at least in part, to experience life and to grow in character and spirit, to learn to know ourselves and thus come to know God.

    As we were/are created in God's image we strive to be logical, rational and mathematical and use these tools to discover and know the logical, rational and mathematical universe and thus come to know ourselves, the universe and God. To know the universe and its laws and mechanisms is to know the mind of God.

    As I said these are just my personel beliefs. While I am not a scientist I am a avid student of science. I find know conflict in my belief in God and Jesus Christ and my belief and knowledge of science.
    I have resolved that issue long ago by costructing the above belief system that is not all original in any way but derived at by reading and studying from as diverse sources as I can find.
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