Does 'God' exist?

  • Thread starter Alex
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  • #1
Alex
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God in my opinion is just a made up figure which people used to explain things that they do not understand. Or to control people.

Mostly, I created this topic because I would like to know what the hell the problem is with all these hardcore christians that seem to ignore evolution despite scientific evidence. There's also the fact that it is the only theory of where we came from that makes sense. I will be talking about the Christian version of God in this topic. However, I don't believe in any God, period.

This just makes me sick:
http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html

If you're too lazy to read this, I'll point out some of the more astonishing parts.

A paragraph written by a christian, apparently trying to persuade teachers and parents and whatnot to NOT teach of evolution, and instead teach christianism:

As a Creation Scientist, one of my greatest duties that I take great pleasure in is introducing the works of the Lord to the young generation. The sparkle of wonderment that fills their eyes in knowing the creative power of God fills my heart with the Lord's divine Love. It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that? Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.

Heres a piece of the paragraph: It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that?
So basically, he's telling me to fight the 'ignorance' of evolutionism with ignorance and blind faith. Sounds like a plan.

Hmm let me pull out another part: Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.

WHAT NERVE THIS MAN HAS! Referring to Evolutionism as dogma, while supporting the topic of Christianism? Now last time I checked, the definition of dogma was - A religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof. Well that's funny, there is plenty of proof supporting evolutionism (see links). But wait..where is the proof that god exists?
Where is the proof that most of the stuff that happened in the bible was caused by a divine source or even really happend. (Yes I can believe that some things in the bible could have actually occured, but everything can be explained scientifically. BTW did anyone see that discovery speical on The Exodus? It explained rationally how all of the plagues in the bible could have occurred and lots of other good stuff.)

Some christian organization gave prizes to kids with science fair boards dealing with christian views and beliefs. Here are a couple winners from the middle school level:

1st Place: "Life Doesn't Come From Non-Life"
Patricia Lewis (grade 8) did an experiment to see if life can evolve from non-life. Patricia placed all the non-living ingredients of life - carbon (a charcoal briquet), purified water, and assorted minerals (a multi-vitamin) - into a sealed glass jar. The jar was left undisturbed, being exposed only to sunlight, for three weeks. (Patricia also prayed to God not to do anything miraculous during the course of the experiment, so as not to disqualify the findings.) No life evolved. This shows that life cannot come from non-life through natural processes.

Wow, the 8th grader shoved some nonliving stuff in a jar and expected or believed that someone would expect the material to turn to life. And she got a 1st place medal for it.

2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"
Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences shows that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.

The fact that a 7th grade boy is being rewarded for expressing a sexist view makes me want to throw up.

Anyway, I would like to here your opinions on this subject. I am not sure if it has been discussed many times before on this board. If it has, I apoligize. I personally think its very iteresting how some people can isolate themselves from science in ignorance like this.

Links:

Proof supporting evolution
- This site explains how fossil, molecular, biogeographic, and comparative anatomical studies provide evidence for evolution: www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/04/
- This page provides some of the evidence for evolution
and the common ancestry of all life on earth: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
- Another great page on evolution: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

Articles NOT supporting Evolution
- An article titled Evolution is a BIG LIE, with a few quotes and passages from the bible: http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/EvolutionisaBIGLIE.html
- An article which seems to start out with a nuetral postion regarding the bible and evolution, then takes the side of the bible about a quarter of the way through stating that the theory of evolution 'lacks proof':
http://www.bibletruthkeys.com/evolution.htm [Broken]
- And my personal favorite, an article that suggests that Darwin, and his theories are responsible for Adolf Hitler's holocaust and many other horrers:
http://www.mswm.org/sciencebible.htm

More articles/links
A simple search on google will give you all the links you need :)
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
first, general discussion probably isn't the best place for this.

but i always find it ironic that they encourage a certain line of thought to discredit science, when that line of thought would be better suited to discredit their own beliefs. and those science fair awards are just sick.
 
  • #3
maximus
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there have been several links to sites like this in PF history, and each one pisses me off more. these people have the audacity to broadcast their ignorance to kids all around the world who are obviously not at the level to understand evolution.

you should have put this in philosophy or religon forums, by the way.
 
  • #4
Alex
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oh, i didnt even know there was a religion forum. I didnt exactly know where to put this. Can a mod move my topic to the rightful place, or do I delete this thread and create a new one in the appropriate forum?
 
  • #5
maximus
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Originally posted by Alex
oh, i didnt even know there was a religion forum. I didnt exactly know where to put this. Can a mod move my topic to the rightful place, or do I delete this thread and create a new one in the appropriate forum?

just wait a while and a mentor will move it. no, hold on. i'll try to call one.
 
  • #6
Iacchus32
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Does God exist? Yes.

Can people be duped into believing God exists without having a basis for accepting that belief? Yes. It's called "blind faith."

This is why other people have such an aversion to it.
 
  • #7
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by Alex ...

As a Creation Scientist, one of my greatest duties that I take great pleasure in is introducing the works of the Lord to the young generation. The sparkle of wonderment that fills their eyes in knowing the creative power of God fills my heart with the Lord's divine Love. It however saddens me greatly that the proponents of Evolutionism have corrupted this true purpose of science and are instead using it as a propaganda tool to spread Secularism. But what is education for if not to fight against ignorance such as that? Our children are the future face of Science and we must teach them to recognize the truth of the Word of the Lord so as to break the cycle of Evolutionism dogma that is paralyzing scientific development and making higher education a dumping ground for the excesses of materialistic philosophies.
This is actually well written and, although this may be one of the dupes I'm referring to above, I don't see that it's any worse than the rhetoric I've heard in favor of Science. There are obviously points to be made here. The only thing that really makes it a difficult pill to swallow is the "religious bias."

Whereas the only thing I'm really in favor of arguing for here is morals and ethics. Because if there were no "hereafter" we wouldn't need them. Or else what would be the point?
 
  • #8
does god exist? un answered.

this is unanswerable becuase people have blind faith and say he does exist but cannot prove it. people without faith say he does not exist but can't prove it. and seeing as god (if he exists) hasnt seen fit to offer us any proof of his existence we don't know either way. i say he does not exist becuase: A:there is no proof of his existence, B: science can explain almost everything, and we are working on finding explanations for the rest.

so why the need for a god?
 
  • #9
maximus
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
Does God exist? Yes.

you should have put, IMO, yes.
 
  • #10
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by drdeath
does god exist? un answered.

this is unanswerable becuase people have blind faith and say he does exist but cannot prove it. people without faith say he does not exist but can't prove it. and seeing as god (if he exists) hasnt seen fit to offer us any proof of his existence we don't know either way. i say he does not exist becuase: A:there is no proof of his existence, B: science can explain almost everything, and we are working on finding explanations for the rest.
Yes, but who has to prove it and to whom? Ultimately the burden of proof lies with "you," the individual.


so why the need for a god?
Why the need for understanding the nature of order? Especially when it comes to our "inherent need" for morality. Because if life were to "drop off" after death, with no memory of it, what purpose would it serve? There would be no need for morals in the here and now, and no need for them in the hereafter. Likewise, the "Karma of life" would have no means by which to complete itself.
 
  • #11
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by maximus
you should have put, IMO, yes.
But if He does exist, and there's a means of ascertaining it (for oneself), then what other answer could I possibly give? But then again I couldn't expect somebody else to accept it upon my say so. :wink:

I only put it this way to suggest that we inquire about it a little more "deeply."
 
  • #12
maximus
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Originally posted by Iacchus32
Why the need for understanding the nature of order? Especially when it comes to our "inherent need" for morality. Because if life were to "drop off" after death, with no memory of it, what purpose would it serve? There would be no need for morals in the here and now, and no need for them in the hereafter. Likewise, the "Karma of life" would have no means by which to complete itself.


that's right, there is no need for morality (in the long run). there is no purpose to life. and i don't believe in karma.

just my humble opinion...
 
  • #13
Iacchus32
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Originally posted by maximus
that's right, there is no need for morality (in the long run). there is no purpose to life. and i don't believe in karma.

just my humble opinion...
Then there's no need for being humble about it either.
 
  • #14
Royce
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One thing that is obvious to me about sites like you pointed to is that it is all about mind and thought control. The Christians (with a capital C) are out to control the minds of children to follow their dogma. One of the most used tactics for this in any war over minds is to accuse the opposition of doing exactly what they, the Christians, are trying to do. This averts the subjects attention so they can slip in and start controlling their minds and opinions; and, you have to start when they're young.
If the subject, sap or dupe happens to feel the they are being manipulated hopfully they will think that it is the opposition doing it rather than them and therefore cling to them for protection even more tightly.
It is not just the Christians that do this. The Democrats and Republican do it in this country. The communist and facist do it and have done it in all countries. Remember Hitlers youth camps. It is very machiavellian and every power group that tries to control people and their thoughts do it and use it including the scientific community.
If you don't know what machiavellian means read "The Prince" by Machiavelli. I think that it should be required reading by every 11 or 12 grader or at least every freshman in college. But then that would be giving away their secrets wouldn't it. And, yes, Academia uses it too.
 
  • #15
megashawn
Science Advisor
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Whereas the only thing I'm really in favor of arguing for here is morals and ethics. Because if there were no "hereafter" we wouldn't need them. Or else what would be the point?

Well, if you look at it in that way, then I can understand your conclusion. I mean for all we know, the point to everything is:

1) Universe is born
2) Life/conciousness is born
3) Life evolves, constantly improving itself
4) Life reaches a point where it is smart enough to improve itself (ie. Computers)
5) Life learns how to spread life to other parts of the universe.

Perhaps, there is no god. And maybe there is no point to being moral and decent people. But then again, let's do it any damn ways and make the most out of this existence that we all can 100% agree on exists.

And technology is advancing us so far, in such a small amount of time. Think about, since the time of jesus, up to the industrial revolution, things pretty much stayed the same. Anyone who disputed the law/king/religion was killed, slavery run rampant, education halted, and I'm certain crime was a way of life, not just a few out of a thousand. In a very short amount of time, we've advanced further then any other species we know of. We did all this, without god.

See, I've said it before, if a person needs to believe in an altered reality in order to be a decent person, by all means do so. Do not try to force your altered reality on others. It is your own means of doing what is needed. Some people believe there has to be a god in order for there to be good. Others, who don't see a need for a god can still be good.

Because if life were to "drop off" after death, with no memory of it, what purpose would it serve?

Perhaps, our purpose is to find a way to put an end to this atrocity? There is much work now in controlling computers with human minds. I'm sure it wouldn't be entirely impossible to back up a person's mind to some extent.

I know one thing. If we, and I mean all of us, do not do something to promote education to every person on earth, we're not going to survive. You keep blinding people with unprovable concepts and your religion's prophecy is sure to come to pass. Someone with a big nuke will see to it I'm sure.

And then again, maybe god does exist. Perhaps, he would like to see us be able to take care of ourselves. Maybe he held off the final step of revelations to see if we can figure things out on our own. I'd say were doing a pretty good job, to such an extent god would be a fool to kill us off now.
 
  • #16
Kagmi
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Personal experience aside, assuming that absolutely nothing existed before the Universe (space-time) it's just as likely that a conscious being (God) existed and created everything as it is that some hydrogen gas just sort of popped into existence and started inflation. It would make sense, if this God created everything, that he would keep tabs on it afterwards. I've seen plenty of evidence for his existence myself but that's another story...
 
  • #17
maximus
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here's what i ask: where does a god fit it?

for the non-science types this is obvious. god is everything and everywhere and has no limit to his power. he makes things happen, so to speak. but to the religious scientist where does he fit in. if you believe and accept the process of physics and evolution, and the nature of the universe, what place is there for a god. the more you accept science, it seems, the farther you push the existence of a god. in the end (if you are very scientifically knowledgeable) what's left for him to do? the creation moment? anything else? is he responcible for our existence, or was it an matter of propobility? if he did create us (with all the laws of probobility still existing and not being infringed upon) what does that imply? is there universal intention, and if so, wouldn't this violate the Uncertainty Principle? or do you not believe that?

I'm honestly currios, so please answer freely
 
  • #18
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Originally posted by megashawn
Well, if you look at it in that way, then I can understand your conclusion. I mean for all we know, the point to everything is:

1) Universe is born
2) Life/conciousness is born
3) Life evolves, constantly improving itself
4) Life reaches a point where it is smart enough to improve itself (ie. Computers)
5) Life learns how to spread life to other parts of the universe.
And to whom do we give all the credit? Ourselves? That's what it sounds like.


Perhaps, there is no god. And maybe there is no point to being moral and decent people. But then again, let's do it any damn ways and make the most out of this existence that we all can 100% agree on exists.
But that doesn't make any sense. There's nothing "rational" about a statement that suggests no means to end. We just do it for the sake of doing it? Sounds kind of quirky to me. :wink:


And technology is advancing us so far, in such a small amount of time. Think about, since the time of jesus, up to the industrial revolution, things pretty much stayed the same. Anyone who disputed the law/king/religion was killed, slavery run rampant, education halted, and I'm certain crime was a way of life, not just a few out of a thousand. In a very short amount of time, we've advanced further then any other species we know of. We did all this, without god.
And how are you sure we didn't achieve these things with some "outside help?" :wink:


See, I've said it before, if a person needs to believe in an altered reality in order to be a decent person, by all means do so. Do not try to force your altered reality on others. It is your own means of doing what is needed. Some people believe there has to be a god in order for there to be good. Others, who don't see a need for a god can still be good.
And yet what is the point of "doing good," if it doesn't fulfill any good?


Perhaps, our purpose is to find a way to put an end to this atrocity? There is much work now in controlling computers with human minds. I'm sure it wouldn't be entirely impossible to back up a person's mind to some extent.
Which atrocity is that?


I know one thing. If we, and I mean all of us, do not do something to promote education to every person on earth, we're not going to survive. You keep blinding people with unprovable concepts and your religion's prophecy is sure to come to pass. Someone with a big nuke will see to it I'm sure.
But why should we care, if it's all an illusion? Or, maybe just a big joke?


And then again, maybe god does exist. Perhaps, he would like to see us be able to take care of ourselves. Maybe he held off the final step of revelations to see if we can figure things out on our own. I'd say were doing a pretty good job, to such an extent god would be a fool to kill us off now.
If there were life after death then it wouldn't matter would it? Then again I don't suppose it would either way, depending on how you look at it.
 
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  • #19
yes and no?

there are many gods and even the bible says that. controversy please. they created we humans as an experiments and then we must mutiply...craziness right?
 
  • #20
Royce
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Originally posted by maximus
here's what i ask: where does a god fit it?

for the non-science types this is obvious. god is everything and everywhere and has no limit to his power. he makes things happen, so to speak. but to the religious scientist where does he fit in. if you believe and accept the process of physics and evolution, and the nature of the universe, what place is there for a god. the more you accept science, it seems, the farther you push the existence of a god. in the end (if you are very scientifically knowledgeable) what's left for him to do? the creation moment? anything else? is he responcible for our existence, or was it an matter of propobility? if he did create us (with all the laws of probobility still existing and not being infringed upon) what does that imply? is there universal intention, and if so, wouldn't this violate the Uncertainty Principle? or do you not believe that?

I'm honestly currios, so please answer freely

First, I want to make clear that this is my belief only. I'm not trying to sell it or convert anyone nor can I prove any of it. This is the religious Form so I don't think I'm being out of line by stating my beliefs and you asked, maximus, not just here but in another thread.

God exists and created the universe. As I've said before in other threads, God said; "Let there be light." = Big Bang.

God is logical, rational and purposful.

He created the universe with logic, rationalism, and purpose.
The physical laws that we are discovering and determining were all made by God when he created the universe. This is why the universe is logical, mathimatical and ordered and not chaos.

It is God the Holy spirit that controls, governs and pervades the universe.

Our bodies are evolved on Earth from more primative forms of life due to God's purpose imprinted on the force of life itself and our DNA which is inherited from the first single cell that lived on earth. How this original DNA came about is still open to question in my mind.
Was it created and then the Earth when ready infected with it? Was it brought to Earth via comet or meteor? Did it evolve here on Earth by God's will and is unique to earth? I don't know the answers to these questions nor have I settled my mind about them.

As I said our bodies are evolved. Our spirit is of the spirit of God and will upon our physical death return to God. Our soul is created and bestowed upon us individually at the first sign of our showing possession of wisdom as young children; ie, we are human beings and not human animals, (See my thread "The Trinity of Man and God") It is our soul that continues on after the death of our physical body.

Our purpose here in this life is, at least in part, to experience life and to grow in character and spirit, to learn to know ourselves and thus come to know God.

As we were/are created in God's image we strive to be logical, rational and mathematical and use these tools to discover and know the logical, rational and mathematical universe and thus come to know ourselves, the universe and God. To know the universe and its laws and mechanisms is to know the mind of God.

As I said these are just my personel beliefs. While I am not a scientist I am a avid student of science. I find know conflict in my belief in God and Jesus Christ and my belief and knowledge of science.
I have resolved that issue long ago by costructing the above belief system that is not all original in any way but derived at by reading and studying from as diverse sources as I can find.
 
  • #21
Kagmi
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I agree with most of Royce's last post. I do believe in evolution and other scientific theories that seem to clash with religious documents. A point I would like to make regarding the story of creation is that this was written some thousands of years ago, and even with divine inspiration I have a hard time seeing someone from that time period write an account of the big bang and then evolution. Taken metaphorically though (i.e. God says let there be light= big bang, etc.), it's really pretty accurate.
As for God's role in the Universe after creation I can only say that I personally have experienced some coincidences that are a little too convienient to be dismissed as coincidences. I have also seen and experienced things that can be given no logical explanation other than that of miracle. In my opinion, the question of God is much like scientific theory in that it should be given extensive consideration before it is dismissed.
 
  • #22
maximus
495
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royce: i have some further questions:

1) do you believe god has the power to infringe upon the laws of physics in the universe? if he does, why doesn't he?

2) do you atribute emotional feelings such as love, kindness, compassion to god or the evolutionary process?

3) do you believe that our existence was the specific intention of god in creating the universe in the first place?

4) if not, do you believe that our existence is "on accident", or happened out of pure probobility?

(a note on question number 2: i realize that you said god created the evolutionary process, what I'm asking is are the feelings we feel because of god and our being made in his image or the fact that these specific traits have succeded evolutionarily, much in the way that a tail for a tiger succeded evolutionarily?)

again, I'm asking out of curriosity. I'm not trying to back you into a corner.

(and anyone can answer these, not just royce)
 
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  • #23
maximus
495
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Originally posted by Kagmi
As for God's role in the Universe after creation I can only say that I personally have experienced some coincidences that are a little too convienient to be dismissed as coincidences.

i believe that these have nothing to do with "god". think of how many things pass in your life that you never notice? we only take note of those events which are coincidental.

I have also seen and experienced things that can be given no logical explanation other than that of miracle. In my opinion, the question of God is much like scientific theory in that it should be given extensive consideration before it is dismissed.

can you give me an example of one of these unexplainable miracle, becuase i refuse to believe that they are beyond the explanation of science. (unless you convince me, of course)
 
  • #24
Kagmi
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In response to Maximus' question, I witnessed one of these events a few years ago. I was with a friend of mine, her brother who is a preist, and her 2-year-old son, Tony. Because of difficulties during his delivery, one of Tony's arms had been paralyzed since birth. While my friend's brother held Tony and tried to convince his mother (who is atheist) to let him be baptized, Tony waved at his mother with the previously paralyzed arm. He's had full use of it since then, and now loves sports. Tests have been done and it seems that the only explanation is that the central nerve connecting his arm to his spinal cord, which had been severed during his birth, had suddenly healed, and I have yet to hear a plausible medical explanation for this. As I have said before, this is only my personal experience so if anyone can think of an explanation I'd welcome one.
 
  • #25
maximus
495
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Originally posted by Kagmi
In response to Maximus' question, I witnessed one of these events a few years ago. I was with a friend of mine, her brother who is a preist, and her 2-year-old son, Tony. Because of difficulties during his delivery, one of Tony's arms had been paralyzed since birth. While my friend's brother held Tony and tried to convince his mother (who is atheist) to let him be baptized, Tony waved at his mother with the previously paralyzed arm. He's had full use of it since then, and now loves sports. Tests have been done and it seems that the only explanation is that the central nerve connecting his arm to his spinal cord, which had been severed during his birth, had suddenly healed, and I have yet to hear a plausible medical explanation for this. As I have said before, this is only my personal experience so if anyone can think of an explanation I'd welcome one.



in this case we probably don't have enough current knowledge to make a clear analasis of what happened. before i would believe anything though i would need to see medical tests of patients during periods of emotional stress, and have more knowledge of the science behind paralisis and the healing rates for such disablilities. i'd also like to know the specifics, like what did he eat that day, where was his arm being touched, and any other relevant matterial. as odd as scenerios like this are, i believe they always have explations. sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

by the way, what did the mother do?
 
  • #26
Kagmi
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I don't know much about medicine either, but I do know that major major nerves tend not to grow back after they've been severed. I also know that the doctors had told the mother that the arm would always be paralyzed. Oh yeah, and the mother screamed .
 
  • #27
FZ+
1,599
3
Well... doctors have been known to misdiagnose these things, and I don't think there is a definite neccessity that the nerve will never grow back. In you children, there may even be a higher chance that they would. I think it was just luck, since we don't have the statistics for an overview of this.
 
  • #28
Royce
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Originally posted by maximus
royce: i have some further questions:

1) do you believe god has the power to infringe upon the laws of physics in the universe? if he does, why doesn't he?

That I don't know. He probably could but I don't think he does or has to to perform miracles such as Kagmi mentioned. It all ways amazes me how easy it is the accept the slimest evidence of a scientic hypothasis but impossible to accept evidence of 1000'sof such incidences. Ye you admit that we don't know enough to explain it. "None are so blind as those who refuse to see."

2) do you atribute emotional feelings such as love, kindness, compassion to god or the evolutionary process?

In my belief, God is the sourse of all love. Love is not just an emotion, a feeling. Love is and has power. Power to heal for example. God loves us to teach us about love and how to love. We return that love. The more we love God the more we can love ourselves and others. The more we love the more the power of love we have and can learn to use. It is also said God is Good, all good is from and of God.

3) do you believe that our existence was the specific intention of god in creating the universe in the first place?

No, not just our existence. While I don't believe in UFO's I do believe that we are not the only life or intelligence in this universe.

4) if not, do you believe that our existence is "on accident", or happened out of pure probobility?

No, it wasn't either accident or propapility. It was on purpose and built into the original DNA.

Again this is just my personel belief system. I have proof that is also personel and would mean nothing to you or anyone else. The proof is enough for me to be convinced. I don't have faith as I see and understand it. I am convinced and persuaded.
 
  • #29
maximus
495
4
Originally posted by Royce
No, it wasn't either accident or propapility. It was on purpose and built into the original DNA.

the original DNA? my question pertains more to how did we get that DNA in the first place? how was life created?
 
  • #30
Kagmi
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I probably would have found it somewhat less unusual if it hadn't happened so suddenly or in such a convienient place. That's also not exactly the only unusual event I've witnessed recently. How did life begin... that's a tough one... I'm going to go with the theory that says the first machinery for life arose in the chemical seas of primordial Earth. The actual life as in conciousness is a harder question. If we assume that there was already a conscious being in existence at this time I would have to say he did it.
 
  • #31
Iacchus32
2,313
1
Little Mermaid

For all I know this is a hoax but I've seen the story on the TV program It's A Miracle. It is pretty captivating. The link refers to the true story which was made into a movie, which gives a general synopsis of the story.

http://www.charitysplace.com/review/review_mermaid.htm [Broken]
 
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  • #32
Royce
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Originally posted by maximus
the original DNA? my question pertains more to how did we get that DNA in the first place? how was life created?

That, of course, I don't know. I, like all of us, speculate.


God could have send an angle servent that selected a warm nutrient rich pool and deposited the original DNA in it to grow, reproduce and diversify endlessly to become all of life on Earth including of course us.

The complex chemicals in said pool could have combined radomly unil one compination became self replicating accidently.

Complex chemicals could have combined in outer space in the clouds of dust under the influence of hard and soft radiation unil it became self replicating and grew and multiplied in space to be eventually brought to Earth and who knows how many other planets in this galexy
by comets and/or meteors.

An extraterrestial race may have sent out a probe intentionally or accidently contaminated with DNA and it intentionally or accidently landed or crashed on Earth and infected it with that DNA.

Take your pick or think up a different scenario. I do know that all life here on Earth from the simplest one celled life form to the most complex is one single life form. All life shares the same DNA with the same structure and made up of the same amino acids. Of course it varies in length and sequence but it is the same. We humans have reminents of that single original DNA in our DNA.
We can and do take snips and pieces of our human DNA and splice it into he DNA of bacteria. It grows and reproduces and flourishes and produces human insulin that diabetics inject into themselves keeping them alive and healthy with no obvious harmful side effect to either the bacteria or humans. All life of Earth is the same organism in millions of different forms.
 
  • #33
Kagmi
10
0
Quite true... We'll probably be speculating for quite some time .
 
  • #34
garytse86
311
0
Questions here:
1) If God is omnipotent, then can God make a rock that God can't lift? Please do not say he would not do such things, this is not the point, it is whether he can do it or not.
2) If God made the Earth, then why do we want to go to heaven?



Religion is like farting: we like our own but hate everyone elses.
 
  • #35
heusdens
1,736
0
God issue

Regarding to the God issue (wether or not He/It exists) what can one say?

First of all, I do not assume that, apart from my mind, and outside and independend of it, a God exists. Not that I can 'proof' that, for how can one proof the non-existence of something not even clearly defined.

How I arrive at that conclusion is that acc. to my mind, we can conceive of the material, objective world as having been there all the time, having no begin or end. Since there is a world now, and we can not possibly conceive of a world popping into existence from nothing, that is why we can not conceive of a beginning of time.
However, reality shows us, that we can not look back infinitely far, all we will ever measure are finit spatial extends and finite duration.
All things that exist (being specific formations of matter) exists within a finite space and time extend. But since all matter is in motion always, there will be always material causes for some specific material configuration coming into existence (for instance the formation of a stellar object, a galaxy, a planet, a bacteria) and all material formations will leave traces of their existence after that specific material configuration has gone extinct.
This is how we observe the world to be.

Now one other thing is that, even when we have good grounds to assume that the history of the universe has no begin, reality presents us with the fact that there are observational limits. So any concrete assumption on how the universe looked like prior to a specific point, becomes less know, the more we look back in time, and observational evidence prior to a certain point even blurs out completely.
Nevertheless we have some grounds to make models and theories for what happeneded before that time, which are not just wild guesses, but bases itself on predictions that can be made from that model, the describe how the current observable universe would look like.
As far as that is concerned, we can at least differentiate between some models, and rule out some possibilities.

There is nevertheless and always will be a limit to our knowledge, even when that limit has been shifted forwards in the course of history.

What to claim then about something we miss factual knowledge about?

It is a well known fact that for our human organism to survive, we must react on dangers and outside stimuli, which sometimes do not provide enough data to make a specific assumption on the thing we observe. Here is where belief comes into play. Our brains are wired in such a way that even when no sufficient data is available, we will make some assumption as to what the nature of the incoming data reflects upon. Sometimes this is done using prior experiences, to make something out of this insufficient data.

Let us face a human dilemma. You are in the middle of a desert without water, and have no clue as to what direction you will find the nearest well. The human mind will then make a 'best guess' even if no data is available to sustain the guess. But we can know for sure that not making any guess will kill us, and making a guess will at least provide for the chance that we picked the right direction.

This means that to 'believe' something, in the absence of real knowledge is the better choice. In the absence of real knowledge about how nature works, the believe in a god could not be considered to be something wrong.
But as we know human knowledge increased drastically. For most things the explenation that 'God did it' will not be a good explenation, since we have actual knowledge that could explain these phenomena.

The question is however, that even when our knowledge is increasing, fact is we will never reach a point in which we know everything about anything. Taking material history to be infinite (without an actual beginning in time, but only a observational limit) would indicate that all we can go for is a limited amount of knowledge.

Not understanding part of the factors that caused us to be here, will always be the case. Does this imply we should then belief in a God, cause we will indeed have an important part of our knowledge missing?

My argument against it would be, that even when a profound understanding of the material history prior to a certain point in time is a fact, even when new developments in cosmology, physics and other sciences, might reveal some more about this history, will be lacking, a belief in God is really not much more then a placeholder for missing knowledge. It's not an actual or factual explenation, it does not make us understand anything at all.
Missing knowledge in the field of pre-big bang cosmology or abiology (formation of the first life forms) and missing links in evolution, are not really a crucial factor in every day life. We will eventually fill those gaps with actual knowledge, despite that we will never conceive of all knowledge about everything, but at least we will have enough knowledge to reduce the amount of "wild guesses" or speculations which absolutely have no grounds, like the theistic doctrines.
Fundamental principles or absolute ideas or deities, residing at the bottom layer of existence, do not make it into the real world as real entities, rather they are fixations of the mind, an idealization of reality itself.
 

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