B Does observation *Determine* the past?

[FallenApple]

Say a photon was emitted from very far away such that it would take billions of years to reach us. According to Feynman's infinite paths, the photon travels every possible path on its way to reach us. The superposition of infinite trajectories collapses when it hits something solid, say an observer on Earth for example.

Then the trajectory of the photon is determined upon observation which determines it's past( relative to us) as well, essentially writing billions of years of history for that photon, which is rather astounding.

This is just for one photon, but it could work for many as well, in principle.

Does this translate over to observations of the CMBR? That is, the observations of the photons by us are localizing them to a definite spacetime position in the past? This is very different than saying that we, via CMBR, are observing the past.

 

[benjamin1889]

Does observation include interaction with inanimate objects. if so then to reach you, it have to avoid all other items regardless of its super position, if there had been something before you it have happened there etc..
sorry if this is stupid aha

 

[FallenApple]

Does observation include interaction with inanimate objects. if so then to reach you, it have to avoid all other items regardless of its super position, if there had been something before you it have happened there etc..
sorry if this is stupid aha

Yes, that is implicit in my example of a particle from far away. I am assuming it avoids everything on it's way here.

 

[benjamin1889]

Yes, that is implicit in my example of a particle from far away. I am assuming it avoids everything on it's way here.

Ok so by observing this particle you essentially influence the path it has taken, I guess that seems like a problem with applying current human understandings to something that defeys everything we know. Again not trying to be annoying with inferior knowledge, just find all these things rather interesting
Understanding is probably the wrong word but more our perception of how time works and our linear view of everything

 

[FallenApple]

Ok so by observing this particle you essentially influence the path it has taken, I guess that seems like a problem with applying current human understandings to something that defeys everything we know. Again not trying to be annoying with inferior knowledge, just find all these things rather interesting

Well, quantum is the most successful scientific theory in terms predictive ability. So in a sense, we know more about quantum than what we know about other things.

 

[benjamin1889]

Well, quantum is the most successful scientific theory in terms predictive ability. So in a sense, we know more about quantum than what we know about other things.

That's almost a bit sad, however knowledge isn't the same as being able to comprehend something. We know that these things happen, even I've heard of them aha. But to truly be able to rap your head around the fact that some thing can be in many places at once is surely not possible, to be able to comprehend infinitey is another example.

 

[FallenApple]

That's almost a bit sad, however knowledge isn't the same as being able to comprehend something. We know that these things happen, even I've heard of them aha. But to truly be able to rap your head around the fact that some thing can be in many places at once is surely not possible, to be able to comprehend infinitey is another example.

There are plenty of things that work that challenges us philosophically. Imaginary numbers are difficult to intuit, yet builds a completely self consistent mathematical system that just works logically. Same with negative numbers. When humans found out the Earth is round, they had a difficult time wrapping their heads around that, but today we don't. Thats because the notion that the Earth is round is ingrained in us since we were toddlers. But Quantum isn't really taught from kindergarden, so that's why many have a hard time accepting it initially.

 

[benjamin1889]

There are plenty of things that work that challenges us philosophically. Imaginary numbers are difficult to intuit, yet builds a completely self consistent mathematical system that just works logically. Same with negative numbers. When humans found out the Earth is round, they had a difficult time wrapping their heads around that, but today we don't. Thats because the notion that the Earth is round is ingrained in us since we were toddlers. But Quantum isn't really taught from kindergarden, so that's why many have a hard time accepting it initially.

That's all very valid and I accept that. That's not really what I mean though, i can sit and read about it and roughly understand the principle of it. I cannot however in my head think of an object in multiple points in space because like me my thought process can only exist with one object in a linear direction.
Ultimately I think your probably right in the fact that you do influence the past, it's the only logical outcome given the quantum stuff "aha". But the problem comes in our linear perception and our brains predisposition to believe it cannot be possible to influence the past. It's like Newtons laws, pretty much true ha.

 

[phinds]

That's almost a bit sad, however knowledge isn't the same as being able to comprehend something. We know that these things happen, even I've heard of them aha. But to truly be able to rap your head around the fact that some thing can be in many places at once is surely not possible, to be able to comprehend infinitey is another example.

Nor does rapping your head around this "fact" need to be possible, since it isn't true.

 

[Drakkith]

Say a photon was emitted from very far away such that it would take billions of years to reach us. According to Feynman's infinite paths, the photon travels every possible path on its way to reach us.

That's not quite what it means. The Path Integral Formulation is a way of computing probability amplitudes for quantum systems. It does not mean that a photon (or any other particle) travels every possible path. The idea that a particle has a set path from one point to another does not translate well from the classical to the quantum realm. All we can say is that we will find a photon at a certain place upon observation. We cannot say that it took anyone path (or an infinite number of paths) to arrive there.

 

[Drakkith]

The superposition of infinite trajectories collapses when it hits something solid, say an observer on Earth for example.

Then the trajectory of the photon is determined upon observation which determines it's past( relative to us) as well, essentially writing billions of years of history for that photon, which is rather astounding.

I'm not that up to speed on retrocausality in the context of quantum theory, but I'd take this conclusion with a grain of salt. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to verify whether retrocausality is correct and the results of retrocausality experiments can be described in other ways that do not invoke or require it.

 

[PeterDonis]

The superposition of infinite trajectories collapses when it hits something solid, say an observer on Earth for example.

No, that's not what Feynman's path integral says. The path integral is a way to calculate the amplitude for different possible results of measuring the photon. It is not a literal description of the photon's state as a superposition of trajectories.

the trajectory of the photon is determined upon observation

No, that's not correct. See above.

There are particular measurements you can make that give the photon a definite momentum (or nearly definite in any practical sense, since no measurement has infinite accuracy) after the measurement. On a collapse interpretation, these particular measurements can be thought of as collapsing the photon into a state of definite momentum, which it most likely was not in before the measurement. But that's only on a collapse interpretation; it's not part of the basic math of QM. And these measurements have to be carefully designed; just hitting a solid object isn't enough.

Does this translate over to observations of the CMBR?

No, since it's wrong to begin with. See above.

 

[FallenApple]

No, that's not what Feynman's path integral says. The path integral is a way to calculate the amplitude for different possible results of measuring the photon. It is not a literal description of the photon's state as a superposition of trajectories.
No, that's not correct. See above.

There are particular measurements you can make that give the photon a definite momentum (or nearly definite in any practical sense, since no measurement has infinite accuracy) after the measurement. On a collapse interpretation, these particular measurements can be thought of as collapsing the photon into a state of definite momentum, which it most likely was not in before the measurement. But that's only on a collapse interpretation; it's not part of the basic math of QM. And these measurements have to be carefully designed; just hitting a solid object isn't enough.
No, since it's wrong to begin with. See above.

Interesting. From my understanding of the double slit experiment, there are two outcome states. |left> and |right>. So the states only refer to the potential outcomes which must be observable? Is that why it is meaningless to ascribe superposition of the trajectories?

Doesn't Feynman's thought experiment relied on breaking down the wall to hold infinite slits, with many of the same walls behind it, stacked? So if |left> and |right> could be in super position, then why not |first> ,|second>, ...|infinite>?

Can we not think of every time the photon passes though these infinite slits as somewhat of a measurement occurring, since if it were infinite slits, then the wave function would be continuously collapsing? I thought Feynman was just generalizing the double slit experiment to all of space. Although I could see the issue of needing to collapse infinite states with no appearent cause of collapse at each step of the way.

Also, so are you saying that quantum works well in the way we think in carefully controlled experiments? Even though we cannot calculate what happens in interstellar space, some quantum effects should still work in principle, since photons are just quantum particles. Well, we can get rid of collapse interpretation issue via MWI but then I wouldn't have posted in the first place since in that case, retrocausality is not even be of consideration to allow for a discussion.

 

[FallenApple]

I'm not that up to speed on retrocausality in the context of quantum theory, but I'd take this conclusion with a grain of salt. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to verify whether retrocausality is correct and the results of retrocausality experiments can be described in other ways that do not invoke or require it.

It should be inherently unverifiable. But the idea is an interesting curiosity.

That's not quite what it means. The Path Integral Formulation is a way of computing probability amplitudes for quantum systems. It does not mean that a photon (or any other particle) travels every possible path. The idea that a particle has a set path from one point to another does not translate well from the classical to the quantum realm. All we can say is that we will find a photon at a certain place upon observation. We cannot say that it took anyone path (or an infinite number of paths) to arrive there.

My post was mostly about retrocausality. I probably should have stated that the photon's ontic status was undetermined and only is described via it's wave function until measured.

I'm confused about the path integral. Feynman's thought experiment appeared to me to be a generalization of the double slit experiment, with infinite walls and infinite slits on each wall, which made me think that at every planar slice of space(i.e imaginary wall), the wave function would somehow collapse into one of those states and that this would happen continuously.

 

[PeterDonis]

From my understanding of the double slit experiment, there are two outcome states. |left> and |right>.

I don't know where you're getting that from, but it's wrong. What textbooks or peer-reviewed papers have you read?

For a single photon in a double slit experiment, there are an infinite number of possible outcome states, corresponding to all the different possible locations on the detector where the flash of the photon arriving could be detected.

Doesn't Feynman's thought experiment relied on breaking down the wall to hold infinite slits, with many of the same walls behind it, stacked?

For a heuristic way to see how the path integral comes about, yes. But the path integral doesn't mean what you think it does, as I've already said.

are you saying that quantum works well in the way we think in carefully controlled experiments?

I'm saying that in order to apply QM at all, you have to define what the "experiment" is--how you are preparing the quantum system or systems, what interaction or interactions are present, and what measurement or measurements you are making.

Even though we cannot calculate what happens in interstellar space, some quantum effects should still work in principle, since photons are just quantum particles.

Sure, there could be interactions that the photons could undergo in interstellar space. Astronomers calculate such things all the time. But they make such calculations in order to compare with actual measurements made here on Earth; that's the only actual data we have. We can't make measurements of what photons are doing a billion light years away; we can only measure things that come to Earth possibly carrying information about such happenings.

we can get rid of collapse interpretation issue via MWI but then I wouldn't have posted in the first place since in that case, retrocausality is not even be of consideration to allow for a discussion.

If retrocausality is interpretation dependent then there's not much we can discuss about it here, since there's no way to experimentally test things that are interpretation dependent.

 

[FallenApple]

I don't know where you're getting that from, but it's wrong. What textbooks or peer-reviewed papers have you read?

For a single photon in a double slit experiment, there are an infinite number of possible outcome states, corresponding to all the different possible locations on the detector where the flash of the photon arriving could be detected.
For a heuristic way to see how the path integral comes about, yes. But the path integral doesn't mean what you think it does, as I've already said.
I'm saying that in order to apply QM at all, you have to define what the "experiment" is--how you are preparing the quantum system or systems, what interaction or interactions are present, and what measurement or measurements you are making.
Sure, there could be interactions that the photons could undergo in interstellar space. Astronomers calculate such things all the time. But they make such calculations in order to compare with actual measurements made here on Earth; that's the only actual data we have. We can't make measurements of what photons are doing a billion light years away; we can only measure things that come to Earth possibly carrying information about such happenings.
If retrocausality is interpretation dependent then there's not much we can discuss about it here, since there's no way to experimentally test things that are interpretation dependent.

I started on Susskind's book, but I'm only on the spin part, so trying to apply discrete states to continuous without thinking is a mistake on my part. Yes it makes sense. The wall is continuous. But the probability should be weighted either left or right, making a bimodal distribution? So even though it's not strictly binary, there's still some sense of classification of "leftness" and "rightness" of a particular point on the board due to it's location relative to the clustering pattern.

Ah ok, got it. I've completely misinterpreted the heuristic. I'll have to look into more on why he set up the infinite walls the way he did.

Hmm, that makes sense. It would be hard to do experiments on only observational data.

 

[vanhees71]

That's not quite what it means. The Path Integral Formulation is a way of computing probability amplitudes for quantum systems. It does not mean that a photon (or any other particle) travels every possible path. The idea that a particle has a set path from one point to another does not translate well from the classical to the quantum realm. All we can say is that we will find a photon at a certain place upon observation. We cannot say that it took anyone path (or an infinite number of paths) to arrive there.

In addition one should keep in mind that a photon doesn't have a position (at least not in the sense a massive (quantum) particle has one), and the path integral for photons is not taken over paths in configuration space but over all physically distinct field configurations.

 

[PeterDonis]

But the probability should be weighted either left or right, making a bimodal distribution?

No. The probability is whatever QM predicts. You don't apply any "weighting" a priori. You apply QM and figure out what it tells you.

So even though it's not strictly binary, there's still some sense of classification of "leftness" and "rightness" of a particular point on the board due to it's location relative to the clustering pattern.

No. See above.

 

[FallenApple]

No. The probability is whatever QM predicts. You don't apply any "weighting" a priori. You apply QM and figure out what it tells you.
No. See above.

I don't mean that you manually weight the probabilities before hand. There are algorithmic techniques that can analyze clustering of data points without specifying a label on the data a priori. So if you look at a bimodal distribution that is dense around the modes, the algorithm should classify them into two, without even being told that there were two slits, just based on the structure of data alone. I don't know if this is done in practice. I heard that the models for QFT relies heavily on experimental data so I imagine the people at LHC would need some form of clustering algorithms just to do inference on the events surrounding the collisions that produces the particle fragments.

 

[PeterDonis]

There are algorithmic techniques that can analyze clustering of data points without specifying a label on the data a priori. So if you look at a bimodal distribution that is dense around the modes, the algorithm should classify them into two, without even being told that there were two slits, just based on the structure of data alone.

Sure, if the data are a bimodal distribution, the algorithm can tell you that. But the data you get when you run a two-slit experiment with photons is not a bimodal distribution. It's an interference pattern. Have you actually read any descriptions of the experiment and its results in a QM textbook or peer-reviewed paper?

 

[kimbyd]

Say a photon was emitted from very far away such that it would take billions of years to reach us. According to Feynman's infinite paths, the photon travels every possible path on its way to reach us. The superposition of infinite trajectories collapses when it hits something solid, say an observer on Earth for example.

Then the trajectory of the photon is determined upon observation which determines it's past( relative to us) as well, essentially writing billions of years of history for that photon, which is rather astounding.

This is just for one photon, but it could work for many as well, in principle.

Does this translate over to observations of the CMBR? That is, the observations of the photons by us are localizing them to a definite spacetime position in the past? This is very different than saying that we, via CMBR, are observing the past.

This description you've written depends critically upon the interpretation of quantum mechanics you're assuming. If you make the assumption that the weirdness of quantum mechanics simply doesn't apply to macroscopic objects such as you and me, then you end up with weird conclusions like this, where observations that collapse wave functions tend to lead to nonsensical statements about causality.

It's worth noting that you don't need to understand this as affecting the past, though. But such a wavefunction collapse does impact things far away. In the case of the photon, for example, if the photon you've observed is entangled with another photon traveling in a different direction, then the observation of one member of the pair can be interpreted as having an immediate impact on the far-away photon.

There are a few reasons to believe that this interpretation of what's going on is just not correct. Of course, it's very bizarre: it's stating that quantum mechanics is non-local, which makes nonsense of relativity. The wavefunction is changed in whose reference frame? Simultaneous events at different locations, after all, are only simultaneous for certain observers. Other observers won't see them as simultaneous. Assuming this non-local behavior, then, also assumes that relativity is all wrong and there really is a preferred reference frame. There's also the problem that when you look at the details of this apparently non-local behavior, it's possible to prove that you can't actually transmit information this way.

The most reasonable conclusion, then, is that this apparent non-locality of quantum mechanics is just an illusion. The simplest explanation for how this could be the case is that wavefunction collapse is itself an illusion. It can be shown that the appearance of wavefunction collapse will occur in a quantum system even if there is no actual collapse. In this interpretation, the appearance of non-locality disappears entirely: instead of collapsing, the observer's wavefunction is split into two components that can't communicate. One component sees outcome A, and interacts with the entire universe as if outcome A is the only outcome. The same with the component that sees outcome B.

 

[FallenApple]

This description you've written depends critically upon the interpretation of quantum mechanics you're assuming. If you make the assumption that the weirdness of quantum mechanics simply doesn't apply to macroscopic objects such as you and me, then you end up with weird conclusions like this, where observations that collapse wave functions tend to lead to nonsensical statements about causality.

It's worth noting that you don't need to understand this as affecting the past, though. But such a wavefunction collapse does impact things far away. In the case of the photon, for example, if the photon you've observed is entangled with another photon traveling in a different direction, then the observation of one member of the pair can be interpreted as having an immediate impact on the far-away photon.

There are a few reasons to believe that this interpretation of what's going on is just not correct. Of course, it's very bizarre: it's stating that quantum mechanics is non-local, which makes nonsense of relativity. The wavefunction is changed in whose reference frame? Simultaneous events at different locations, after all, are only simultaneous for certain observers. Other observers won't see them as simultaneous. Assuming this non-local behavior, then, also assumes that relativity is all wrong and there really is a preferred reference frame. There's also the problem that when you look at the details of this apparently non-local behavior, it's possible to prove that you can't actually transmit information this way.

The most reasonable conclusion, then, is that this apparent non-locality of quantum mechanics is just an illusion. The simplest explanation for how this could be the case is that wavefunction collapse is itself an illusion. It can be shown that the appearance of wavefunction collapse will occur in a quantum system even if there is no actual collapse. In this interpretation, the appearance of non-locality disappears entirely: instead of collapsing, the observer's wavefunction is split into two components that can't communicate. One component sees outcome A, and interacts with the entire universe as if outcome A is the only outcome. The same with the component that sees outcome B.

It does depend on the interpretation. I don't care if it works for all of them. I just care if I can find a valid interpretation that allows for retrocausality and take it as far as it can go. Things are just much more interesting that way.

Causality is a funny thing. We think of time as necessarily flowing forward. But there are some views that the universe is a geometrical object where time is just a coordinate. In those block universe models, time does not flow. I'm not saying that it has to work this way. What I am saying is that it is possible that we think of time in a different way and not run into paradoxes.

Why is non-locality an illusion? Bizarre doesn't mean it's wrong. Things were already different across reference frames(i.e time and space). Status of the wave function differing relative to differing vantage points wouldn't be a paradox if it were true. Why would to be wrong if for me, the wave function collapsed, but for you, it didn't? If it's relative it's relative. If it's not, then it's not. If it is, It would just have to result in a change in the way we view the world. Suppose that an observer on the other side of the universe made an observation and collapsed a wave function on an electron there. Well, it is meaningless to us, because they are in a separate quantum system to us.

 

[PeterDonis]

It does depend on the interpretation.

Then it's not a suitable topic for discussion here, since the physics itself cannot be interpretation-dependent.

Thread closed.