Don't understand what is exchanging with what in this acid/base equili

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The discussion centers on the acid-base equilibrium involving NH4+, NH3, and H2O, questioning which species exchanges with water. It explores two scenarios: NH4+ exchanging with H2O and NH3 exchanging with H2O, each with associated rate constants. The relationship between the rate constants (k1, k-1, kf, kr) is examined, highlighting that while they relate to the same equilibrium, they do not necessarily represent the same reaction. At pH 7, it is suggested that NH4+ is the more likely participant in the exchange, although the exact mechanism remains unclear. The conversation emphasizes that the details of proton and hydroxide presence do not significantly impact the understanding of the equilibrium in acid-base reactions.
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NH4+ + H2O (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H3O+;

the same reaction can be written as:
NH4+ + HO- (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H2O;

where (kf) - rate of forward reaction and (kr) - rate of reverse reaction.

1 Question. NH4+ or NH3 exchanging with H2O?

If NH4+ is exchanging with H2O:
NH4+ (k-1) =(k1) H2O,

where (k1) - rate of exchange from NH4+ to H2O and (k-1) - rate of exchange from H2O to NH4+.


If NH3is exchanging with H2O:
NH3(k-1) =(k1) H2O,

where (k1) - rate of exchange from NH3 to H2O and (k-1) - rate of exchange from H2O to NH3.

2 Question. What is the relationship between k1, k-1 and kf, kr?
 
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alex_alex said:
NH4+ + H2O (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H3O+;

the same reaction can be written as:
NH4+ + HO- (kr) = (kf) NH3 + H2O;

I don't see why you assume it is the same reaction with the same rate constants. They are definitely related to the same equilibrium, but that's all.
 
Borek said:
I don't see why you assume it is the same reaction with the same rate constants. They are definitely related to the same equilibrium, but that's all.

At pH=7, I assume that 1st one is the most likely case. I am not sure I understand NH4+ or NH3 is exchanging H+ with H2O?
 
To be honest, I have no idea what the exact mechanism is - at the same time I don't think it matters. Equilibrium doesn't depend on these details, and it is equilibrium that we are typically interested in.

Please note there is no such thing as H+ nor OH- in the solution. H3O+ is only an approximation, as proton is most likely solvated by more than one water molecule. OH- is solvated as well, so it is present as - at least - H3O2-. We ignore all these and it doesn't interfere with our understanding of acid/base reactions, why should it matter for ammonia?
 
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