E-Field Breakdown: Realistic Values in Air & FR4

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the realistic breakdown values for electric fields in air and the influence of materials like FR4 on these values. Participants explore the variability of breakdown voltage under different conditions, including temperature, pressure, and humidity, as well as the implications for high voltage applications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that textbooks state the breakdown value for the electric field in air is 3*10^6 V/m, while other sources suggest it can be as low as 1*10^6 V/m.
  • There is a proposal that the breakdown voltage increases in the presence of a dielectric like FR4, with a reference to the equation V=ε E*d, where ε is the dielectric constant.
  • One participant mentions that the breakdown voltage varies with pressure, referencing the Paschen Curve as a relevant source.
  • Another participant raises the question of whether the equation V=ε E*d is valid under standard temperature and pressure conditions.
  • Humidity is identified as another factor that affects breakdown voltage, with some participants suggesting that it is particularly relevant when considering constant humidity conditions.
  • A reference is made to the book "Reference Data for Radio Engineers," which contains graphs for breakdown voltage and discusses how breakdown voltage varies with spacing, pressure, temperature, and the geometry of electrodes.
  • One participant expresses a need for breakdown information for compliance with UL standards, indicating that there is some uncertainty and complexity in calculating breakdown voltage even under standard conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the breakdown values and the factors influencing them, indicating that there is no consensus on a single value or approach. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the equation V=ε E*d under different conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations such as the dependence of breakdown voltage on environmental factors like humidity, pressure, and temperature, as well as the geometry of the electrodes, which complicates the discussion.

likephysics
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What is the realistic break down value for E field in air.
Text books say its 3*10^6 V/m
But there are many websites, which go down to 1*10^6 V/m.

If there is a dielectric like FR4, then the break down increases
V=ε E*d ?, where ε is the dielectric constant for FR4.
 
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likephysics said:
What is the realistic break down value for E field in air.
Text books say its 3*10^6 V/m
But there are many websites, which go down to 1*10^6 V/m.

If there is a dielectric like FR4, then the break down increases
V=ε E*d ?, where ε is the dielectric constant for FR4.

It varies with pressure -- the relevant reference is the Paschen Curve:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen_curve

(Click on the graph to enlarge it)
 
Assuming standard temp/pressure, is V=ε E*d valid ?
 
It depend on humidity also.
 
yungman said:
It depend on humidity also.

Yes! Given a constant humidity, is V=ε E*d valid ?
 
The book
Reference Data for Radio Engineers, fifth edition has a great graph for breakdown voltage.
If you are serious about working with high voltage, you should get this book.
Volts/mil breakdown voltage varies with spacing.
Breakdown voltage varies with pressure and temperature.
Breakdown voltage is different for sharp points and spheres.
Breakdown voltage varies only slightly with humidity unless there is condensation.
 
Carl Pugh said:
The book
Reference Data for Radio Engineers, fifth edition has a great graph for breakdown voltage.
If you are serious about working with high voltage, you should get this book.
Volts/mil breakdown voltage varies with spacing.
Breakdown voltage varies with pressure and temperature.
Breakdown voltage is different for sharp points and spheres.
Breakdown voltage varies only slightly with humidity unless there is condensation.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I will look it up.
I am not working with high voltage, but need the breakdown information.
Certain products need to meet standards set by UL (underwriter labs). Some of these standards are a mystery. Lot of ppl at work think breakdown voltage calculation(even under standard conditions) is some what blackmagic.
 

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