News Egypt Army gives Morsi a 48hr ultimatum

[Greg Bernhardt]

Yikes, things are heating back up in Egypt.

Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving feuding politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own roadmap for the country.

A dramatic military statement broadcast on state television declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/01/us-egypt-protests-idUSBRE95Q0NO20130701

 

[256bits]

It would appear that the concepts of the Muslem Brotherhood towards democracy and their flavour of a national constitution has tranlated into a 'dislike' click from the general population. A classic example of a stupid person and even dumber group acquiring power, with the assumption that they are the only ones with knowledge on how to move forward. Squander what good will they ever did have for promotion of idealism, at the expense of economics.
I say good for the army and their support given to the Egyptian population.

 

[Evo]

The majority of the people did not seem to want the Muslim Brotherhood to take control, IIRC. I just hope that the takeover by the people again does not become a war.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The majority of the people did not seem to want the Muslim Brotherhood to take control, IIRC. I just hope that the takeover by the people again does not become a war.

I can't see Morsi stepping down. If the military takes action, it will get nasty. I think the vote was near 50/50 too right? Pretty bleak.

 

[Synaptic]

Just hope that no extremist government is put into place, or the USA will have no choice but to once again step in.

Sometimes, I think we should just ourselves run their democracies for them: most Islamic countries just can't seem to do it themselves. Perhaps the next time we use military force to remove an evil regime, we can make the country our territory and run it in a manner that would actually improve the quality of lives of the citizens. I don't believe we should have ever given Iraq and Afghanistan back over to their elites, but kept these regions as our territory and then run it like we do our own nation. The people would be much better off.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Get your popcorn ready :(

Showdown? Egypt's Morsy defies military 'ultimatum'
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[OmCheeto]

Get your popcorn ready :(

Showdown? Egypt's Morsy defies military 'ultimatum'
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Facebook said there were 33 million Egyptians out in a huff today.

I googled the number of people in Egypt this afternoon. It was around 87 million.

I'd say there are a good number of Egyptians that are not happy.

hmm... What ever happened to AhmedEzz?

I much prefer the comments of people on the front line of reality.

 

[nsaspook]

I much prefer the comments of people on the front line of reality.

I do too.


They seem to be turning very anti-American and anti-President Obama because of our support of the current Government.

 

[nsaspook]

Egyptian army ousts Morsi, suspend constitution

http://www.france24.com/en/20130703...rsi-deadline-looms-tahrir-protests-army-video

I hope they have better luck this time.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

At least it will be an example to the new president that if you lie and over reach your purpose there will be consequences.

 

[OmCheeto]

I do too.


They seem to be turning very anti-American and anti-President Obama because of our support of the current Government.

Depends on who you talk to I suppose. The following image is from my previous link.

A picture of an Egyptian wearing a "USA" hat is worth a thousand words.

I hope they have better luck this time.

They don't seem to be worried about it

We ousted one dictator and now we've ousted a second one. We'll do it again if necessary, we are experienced now ... This will be in the minds of the army or any politician in the future - they will not want to face the same destiny as Morsi or Mubarak.

What did we say when this happened before? "Today, we are all Egyptians"

I suppose, today, we are all Egyptians, again.

At least it will be an example to the new president that if you lie and over reach your purpose there will be consequences.

That's the message I took from Adal's comment.

Here's another comment from someone on the front line:

We cannot talk about constitutional correctness as we are on the threshold of a new corrected revolutionary roadmap. Egypt's future remains open: a democracy can happen, but so can an autocracy. The roadmap will bear many flaws and problems, but protesters have also learned many lessons.

AhmedEzz attended that University, last we heard from him. I hope he is ok.

 

[Evo]

What did we say when this happened before? "Today, we are all Egyptians"

Ivan seeking said that and it cracked me up. Uhm, no, were not. It just struck me as being incredibly meaningless. Did he also say "Today we're all Libyans", or today we are all "insert coup of the day"? We have no idea what they're going through. We have no idea what they really think.

 

[Astronuc]

Of course, Obama could go to Cairo and say - وأنا القاهري

 

[Astronuc]

Ivan seeking said that and it cracked me up. Uhm, no, were not. It just struck me as being incredibly meaningless. Did he also say "Today we're all Libyans", or today we are all "insert coup of the day"? We have no idea what they're going through. We have no idea what they really think.

Libya was yesterday, or was that Syria? But today is a different country.

 

[phinds]

We have no idea what they're going through. We have no idea what they really think.

There you go again, Evo, preferring sanity and reason over blather.

 

[nsaspook]

There you go again, Evo, preferring sanity and reason over blather.

Having sanity and reason in Middle Eastern politics would be refreshing.

Cheap bread is the key to stability.
http://www.thenation.com/article/16...d-weather-and-planetful-trouble#axzz2Y2XP9SuL

 

[phinds]

Having sanity and reason in Middle Eastern politics would be refreshing.

Indeed, but I think that's beyond even Evo's powers.

 

[OmCheeto]

There you go again, Evo, preferring sanity and reason over blather.

poop.

Am I blathering again?

 

[Evo]

poop.

Am I blathering again?

{{{Om}}}

 

[OmCheeto]

Ivan seeking said that and it cracked me up. Uhm, no, were not. It just struck me as being incredibly meaningless.

Meaningless? Moral support is never meaningless.

Did he also say "Today we're all Libyans", or today we are all "insert coup of the day"?

They didn't have "like" or "thanks" buttons in the olden days.

We have no idea what they're going through. We have no idea what they really think.

I've forgotten to pick up ground roast for the last 3 days. The stores are not yet open, and I'm drinking my post apocalypse, use only in case of emergency, stash of instant coffee. Don't tell me I don't know what they are going through...

On a more serious "things are heating up" note:

Hundreds of Muslim Brotherhood officials were also reported to have been arrested, with many senior leaders being held in the Torah prison in Cairo - the same prison holding Hosni Mubarak, who was himself deposed in the 2011 revolution.

Eventually, they will figure out that pointing fingers at others, and throwing them in jail, will not solve their problems.

The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it — and the glow from that fire can truly light the world. And so, my fellow Egyptians: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country

 

[chemisttree]

Ivan seeking said that and it cracked me up. Uhm, no, were not. It just struck me as being incredibly meaningless. Did he also say "Today we're all Libyans", or today we are all "insert coup of the day"? We have no idea what they're going through. We have no idea what they really think.

I have a feeling that the Egyptians are feeling something like this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

 

[phinds]

I have a feeling that the Egyptians are feeling something like this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Do you REALLY think that the millions of Islamists in Egypt think that? I hope more Egyptians do think that way than don't but "the Egyptians" are a diverse lot.

 

[chemisttree]

Do you REALLY think that the millions of Islamists in Egypt think that? I hope more Egyptians do think that way than don't but "the Egyptians" are a diverse lot.

I absolutely do. I think they will confirm that belief in the coming weeks when they begin their effort to establish a government to protect their safety and happiness.

 

[phinds]

I absolutely do. I think they will confirm that belief in the coming weeks when they begin their effort to establish a government to protect their safety and happiness.

Islamists believe that all men are created equal? You've got to be kidding. You really think they see "non-believers" as equal ?

 

[chemisttree]

All men are born equal according to Islam.

 

[Evo]

All men are born equal according to Islam.

Except non-believers (and of course women).

Qur'an 8:39-40--Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme. If they desist, God is cognizant of all their actions; but if they give no heed, know then that God will protect you

Qur'an 9:29--Fight those who do not believe in God or the last day, and do not hold forbidden that which was forbidden by God and His Apostle, or acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the people of the book, until they pay jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

But we've gone off topic, this is about the army deposing Mursi.

 

[phinds]

Except non-believers (and of course women).

Evo, you're doing it again

 

[russ_watters]

Libya was yesterday, or was that Syria? But today is a different country.

Syria is still tomorrow.

 

[OmCheeto]

hmmm... I think it would be really cool if one of the oldest nations, and one of the youngest nations, could both blow up billions of dollars worth of fireworks, on the same day. I think that would be really cool.

On the other hand, there should be a (sharia?) law that says they have to stop at 10 pm, when the 4th falls on a Thursday, and Om draws the short straw...


----------------------
and has to work in the morning...
gosh darned kids nowadays!

 

[OmCheeto]

A very recent post from a FB friend:

silly girl...

 

[256bits]

Egypt will be the same as it was yesterday and the same as it will be tomorrow.
The people wanted some representation from the government, after the first series of protests a few years ago, and were not to be dismissed as pathetic sheep to be led around by the nose. Mursi did not understand that.

The army disposed him to save the country from what could have developed into more mayhem and claches between different factions. Remember that the protests started before the ultimatium from the army, and it was not the army as the instigator in all of this.

If the economic interests of the people had been put ahead of the Brotherhoods' then this second removal of a leader would not have happened, so Mursi was just a complete bonehead for not making a compromise in politics. It seems that even if he was elected, he reverted back to the dictatorial style of leadership that is customary and engrained into the cultural phychic of these type of people that seek authority and absolute authority.

 

[BobG]

If the economic interests of the people had been put ahead of the Brotherhoods' then this second removal of a leader would not have happened, so Mursi was just a complete bonehead for not making a compromise in politics. It seems that even if he was elected, he reverted back to the dictatorial style of leadership that is customary and engrained into the cultural phychic of these type of people that seek authority and absolute authority.

Bingo! Good ideology (from a Muslim Egyptian point of view) isn't enough if the leaders aren't actually good at running a country. I think they would have been better off just waiting until the next election, though. Or do what we do in the US - have recall elections and impeachments (not something I generally consider a good option, but certainly better than the option they chose).

I think we've seen the same problems before with Palestinians. One group that offered some hope of peace, but horrible at the day to day duties of government and one group officially considered a terrorist group, but half decent at the day to day duties of government. They chose the group that could actually run a government (with bad results, since Israel was never going to deal with Hamas).

Competence is a pretty important characteristic for an administration to have. Good intentions just aren't enough.

 

[aquitaine]

The majority of the people did not seem to want the Muslim Brotherhood to take control, IIRC. I just hope that the takeover by the people again does not become a war.

I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was popular, they did win more than 40% of the seats in parliament and their biggest rival was the even more radical Islamist Bloc.

 

[Evo]

I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was popular, they did win more than 40% of the seats in parliament and their biggest rival was the even more radical Islamist Bloc.

IIRC, the votes were questioned as to whether they were real or fraud.

But as 256bits posted, no matter, it was what they and Mursi did after the election that was wrong.

 

[nsaspook]

The Egyptian professional military (most with US training) has seen the disastrous results of strict religious rule in Iran on their counterparts from 1979 to the present, the Islamist military power grab in places like Turkey and will not repeat that mistake again. IMO a pure Islamist government is incompatible with Western-style democracy, fundamental human rights and what's most important to them, a strict military chain of command with military leaders at the top. In most Islamic country's with the facade of democracy the (fundamentally pro-secular) military actually controls the power strings and if we see "democracy" in Egypt it will be a puppet controlled by them as usual.

 

[aquitaine]

The Egyptian professional military (most with US training) has seen the disastrous results of strict religious rule in Iran on their counterparts from 1979 to the present, the Islamist military power grab in places like Turkey and will not repeat that mistake again.

At least so far it hasn't ended like when Algeria's military deposed an elected Islamist president.

The army saw this outcome as unacceptable. The FIS had made open threats against the ruling pouvoir, condemning them as unpatriotic and pro-French, as well as financially corrupt. Additionally, FIS leadership was at best divided on the desirability of democracy, and some expressed fears that a FIS government would be, as U. S. Assistant Secretary of State Edward Djerejian put it, "one man, one vote, one time. "
On January 11, 1992 the army canceled the electoral process, forcing President Chadli Bendjedid to resign and bringing in the exiled independence fighter Mohammed Boudiaf to serve as a new president. However, on 29 June 1992 he was assassinated by one of his body guards, a Lieutenant L. Boumaarafi. The assassin was sentenced to death in a closed trial in 1995. The sentence was not carried out. So many FIS members were arrested—5,000 by the army's account, 30,000 according to FIS, and including Abdelkader Hachani—that the jails had insufficient space to hold them in; camps were set up for them in the Sahara desert, and bearded men feared to leave their houses lest they be arrested as FIS sympathizers.
A state of emergency was declared, and many ordinary constitutional rights were suspended. Any protests that occurred were suppressed, and human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International, reported frequent government use of torture and holding of suspects without charge or trial. The government officially dissolved the FIS on March 4.
Of the few FIS activists that remained free, many took this as a declaration of war. Throughout much of the country, remaining FIS activists, along with some Islamists too radical for FIS, took to the hills with whatever weapons were available and became guerrilla fighters. Their first attacks on the security forces (not counting the Guemmar incident) began barely a week after the coup, and soldiers and policemen rapidly became targets.
As in previous wars, the guerrillas were almost exclusively based in the mountains of northern Algeria, where the forest and scrub cover were well-suited to guerrilla warfare, and in certain areas of the cities; the very sparsely populated but oil-rich Sahara would remain mostly peaceful for almost the entire duration of the conflict. This meant that the government's principal source of money—oil exporting—was largely unaffected.

And that went on for ten years. Nasty.

 

[OmCheeto]

Do you REALLY think that the millions of Islamists in Egypt think that? I hope more Egyptians do think that way than don't but "the Egyptians" are a diverse lot.

Millions of Americans don't appear to share those views either.

Maybe we should force children to memorize and recite that instead of the pledge of allegiance.

Or perhaps, a modernized version of Lincoln's speech:

"(Eleven Score and 17 Years Ago) Our Fathers brought forth on this continent a new Nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that ALL men are created Equal. NOW we are engaged in a Great Civil War, testing whether that Nation, or any nation so conceived and dedicated, can long endure.

We are met on a Great Battlefield of that War"

I choose liberty. I choose freedom. I choose a government that will uphold those ideals. I VOTE. And I will stay grateful for the notion that the Government of My United States IS a government "of the People, by the People, and for the People"

This Great Battlefield will only ENSURE our liberty. It will not take it away.

Happy Independance Day!

The Egyptians will have to edit the above themselves. I ain't doing the math on how many scores of years they bin around.

A demonstrator holds a cross and a Quran during an anti-‎Morsi rally in ‎Tahrir Square, ‎Cairo.

Via Al Jazeera, on Facebook​

 

[OmCheeto]

Ha!

Not sure if anyone has been following American politics for the last 5 years, but this made me laugh.

----------------------
ps. For those who don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, he constantly calls it; "The Obama Regime"
And for those who haven't been following American politics for the last 5 years, the Republicans have not worked with our current President during that time. Nor did a lot of them recognize his legitimacy, as he is apparently a Kenyan. hmmm... Perhaps we should rename them; "Republican Brotherhood".
pps. Go Yankees!

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes!

Egypt____________________________ about an hour ago
Mohamed ElBaradei is to be named Egypt's Interim Prime Minister on Saturday.

Unfortunately, I'm senile, and can't remember why I love that guy.

 

[nsaspook]

Yes!



Unfortunately, I'm senile, and can't remember why I love that guy.

Iraq WMD inspections?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes!

Unfortunately, I'm senile, and can't remember why I love that guy.

Who needs a memory, when PF and Google are your friends.

I would imagine that with the way the military and the protesters seem to have been getting along, a top general would be my best guess as a most probable new leader. But after that, as ElBaradei has said, it's up to Egyptians to create a new Egypt.

Good god, that was a good thread.

Though it looks like only Astronuc and Jimmy Snyder survived page 1.

Oh the humanity. They were italicized like flies...


--------------------------
for those not familiar with American/PF/Omic idiomatic humor:

drop like flies
Fig. to faint, sicken, collapse, or die, in great numbers like houseflies dying in a large group. It was a terrible year for the flu. People were dropping like flies.

italicized
Fig. death of a PF'er. Either executed for blasphemy, or suicide: same result.

On a brighter note, DevilsAvocado, lisab, and a few others and I survived pages 2 though 76.

--------------------------

Interesting find by Char. Limit back then:

America is a strong supporter of democracy worldwide. Except, of course, when we aren't. That piece of doublethink has been at the center of American foreign policy pretty much since World War II, and it is the heart of the conundrum we now find ourselves in regards to what is happening in Egypt and other countries in North Africa and the Middle East. Because we're conceptually all in favor of democracy -- right up until the "wrong" person or group wins an election. According to our definition of "wrong," of course. This is the key drawback to democracy (and American support of democracy in the rest of the world) -- sometimes the "wrong" people win.

Sometimes, they do.

 

[OmCheeto]

Iraq WMD inspections?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

Never heard about that. But that was 10 years ago, so in my senility, I may have.

Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.

The documents, given to International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei, indicated that Iraq might have tried to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger, but the agency said they were "obvious" fakes.

Um... No. I would not have forgotten that.

I recall I was on the fence when we invaded Iraq in 2003, as I assumed, and still assume, that the US President has the most information available to anyone on the planet.

But then, later, we discovered, the truth about the WoMD...

(Chauncey Gardner=GW)

 

[edward]

Iraq WMD inspections?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

The yellow cake issue was so absurd. 550 tons of yellowcake had been in Iraq since before Israel bombed out their nuclear development facility.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/

http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=50430

This pretty much proves it was there. Yet it disproves the allegation that recent attempts to buy yellowcake had occurred.

Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei was wrong.

 

[OmCheeto]

The yellow cake issue was so absurd. 550 tons of yellowcake had been in Iraq since before Israel bombed out their nuclear development facility.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/

http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=50430

This pretty much proves it was there. Yet it disproves the allegation that recent attempts to buy yellowcake had occurred.

Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei was wrong.

Live and learn. Thank you edward.

Though I still think ElBaradei's comment is what caught my eye about him initially; "it's up to Egyptians to create a new Egypt."

I'd say it's true of any nation.

 

[lisab]

The kid in this video made me want to cry - but in a good way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I

 

[Astronuc]

The kid in this video made me want to cry - but in a good way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I

D@mn, that kid is great! I see a future president or world leader. If only we had more leaders like that. I hope he doesn't give into cynicism as he matures.

 

[OmCheeto]

The kid in this video made me want to cry - but in a good way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeDm2PrNV1I

D@mn, that kid is great! I see a future president or world leader. If only we had more leaders like that. I hope he doesn't give into cynicism as he matures.

It is refreshing to see someone so young being so aware of what is going on.

Here's another one, with a simpler message:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG1x9Zz_oGo​

It sounded like a 50:1 honk to no-honk ratio, with someone really agreeing with this kid around 1:53.

AGAINST THE BROTHERS?
HONK YOUR HORN!
...
His name is Omar, he’s still in high school, he’s passionate about the Egyptian revolution and disappointed with its outcome -- specifically since the Muslim Brotherhood took power and failed to deliver on their promises of dignity, social justice, and a proper compensation for the revolution’s martyrs.

On april 10th, 2013, he decided to leave his “utra-revolutionaries” Facebook group, and try some more on-the-ground action. So he wrote “If you’re against the Brotherhood, honk your horn!” on a sign and went on to demonstrate, alone, in Cairo’s Madinat Nasr neighborhood.

“Except one or two bearded sheikhs, no one failed to honk!”, he says

Though my Arabic is so bad, for all I know, his sign might say; "Honk if you like ice cream!"
Can anyone read Arabic?

 

[HossamCFD]

:



Though my Arabic is so bad, for all I know, his sign might say; "Honk if you like ice cream!"
Can anyone read Arabic?

:

I am native in (Egyptian) Arabic. The sign does literally say: If you're against the brotherhood, hit your horn.