Electrical length of wire wound on magnetic core?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of electrical length in coils wound on magnetic cores, particularly focusing on the relationship between electrical length and physical length, as well as the implications of core permeability on inductance. Participants explore theoretical and practical aspects of this topic, including comparisons between different core materials and their effects on resonant frequencies.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the electrical length of a coil on a magnetic core is longer than its physical length, referencing a formula involving core permeability.
  • Others express skepticism about the formula and request sources to support the claims made regarding electrical length and core permeability.
  • A participant suggests that the discussion may relate to changes in inductance when comparing ferrite cores to air cores, questioning the relevance of the original formula.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of equivalent length for the same inductance, indicating a distinction between electrical length and physical length.
  • There are discussions about resonant frequencies and how inserting an air core inductor affects resonance, with some participants noting that the core does influence inductance but not in a straightforward manner.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of the formula or the implications of core permeability on electrical length. Multiple competing views remain regarding the relationship between electrical length, physical length, and inductance.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the definitions of electrical length and the assumptions underlying the proposed formula. The discussion also highlights the complexity of inductance in different configurations, which may depend on various factors not fully explored in the thread.

BHY-BK
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Hi everyone,

I read somewhere that when a coil is wound on a magnetic core it's electrical length becomes longer than it's physical length. I remember seeing this formula

L=l * sqrt Ue

Where L= Electrical length
l=actual (physical) length
Ue=Core permeability

Does anyone know if this is correct and if so what are the units used (Feet, meters)? I tried searching for it again but could not find it.
 
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I cannot find any references to this ...

BHY-BK said:
I read somewhere that when a coil is wound on a magnetic core it's electrical length becomes longer than it's physical length.

or this ...

BHY-BK said:
L=l * sqrt Ue

you need to supply some sources

Dave
 
BHY-BK said:
Hi everyone,

I read somewhere that when a coil is wound on a magnetic core it's electrical length becomes longer than it's physical length. I remember seeing this formula

L=l * sqrt Ue

Where L= Electrical length
l=actual (physical) length
Ue=Core permeability

Does anyone know if this is correct and if so what are the units used (Feet, meters)? I tried searching for it again but could not find it.
It sounds like you are referring to the change in inductance when a wire is wound on a ferrite core versus an air core, or even compared to the inductance of the same length of a straight wire or a single turn.

Like Dave, I'm not familiar with the equation you list. Are you just wanting to compare ferrite-based and air-core inductances?
 
Something similar to this happens in helical resonators. A coil of wire open at one end and grounded at the other is encased in a shielded enclosure. There are coupling loops adjacent to the resonating coil for coupling power into and out of the filter. The resonant frequency is typically much lower than the 1/4 wave length of the wound coil. This is a very brief description of what happens. There is quite a bit more to it.
 
I had it written down but can't find out where I originally got it from?
It doesn't make sense to me as I don't understand what effect the core permeability would have on the length?
 
BHY-BK said:
I had it written down but can't find out where I originally got it from?
It doesn't make sense to me as I don't understand what effect the core permeability would have on the length?
Not "length", "equivalent length for the same inductance". Are you familiar with that concept yet? :smile:
 
Are you saying you can have lines with the same electrical length but different inductances, I do understand that.
 
If you take a 1/2 wave length of wire that resonates at some frequency and then insert an air core inductor in series with it, it will resonate at a lower frequency. If you then pull this coil apart so the whole assembly becomes a straight wire again it will NOT resonate at the lower frequency, it will likely resonate at some place in between the original and the lower. In other words, we are not just spooling away extra wire. It does not matter if there is a core or not, the effect of inductance is the same. That is not to say the core makes no difference at all. Is this what you are referring to?
 
BHY-BK said:
Are you saying you can have lines with the same electrical length but different inductances, I do understand that.
Same *physical* length, with different "electrical lengths". :smile:
 
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