Electromagnet force on object at some distance

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    Electromagnet Force
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the force exerted by an electromagnet on a magnetically permeable object, such as iron, located at a distance along the electromagnet's axis. Participants explore the complexities of the problem, noting that while the question seems straightforward, the solution may involve intricate calculations and approximations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses frustration over the lack of example calculations for the force exerted by an electromagnet on a distant object, indicating that the solution may be complicated.
  • Another participant provides a link to a solenoid force calculator, although it is noted that this may not directly apply to the scenario described.
  • A participant clarifies that the formula provided is for a closed magnetic circuit, which does not fit the scenario where the magnetic flux travels through air.
  • One participant mentions that the magnetic field density (B) is inversely proportional to the square of the distance, referencing the Biot-Savart Law, and suggests that this could help in making predictions about the force at varying distances.
  • A participant proposes a formula for calculating the force at zero distance, referencing a formula from Wikipedia for the force on the core of a solenoid, and discusses the implications of distance on the force exerted.
  • There is a mention of the field strength for a monopole versus a dipole, noting that the field strength drops off at different rates, with the dipole (like an electromagnet) dropping off at a cubed rate.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on a specific solution or formula for the force exerted by the electromagnet, and multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the calculations and principles involved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the applicability of certain formulas to the scenario described, particularly regarding the assumptions of magnetic circuits and the behavior of magnetic fields at varying distances.

Machinia
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I've searched high and low and come up with a lot of "maybes" and "could be's" and "try this" to a problem which I feel should have at least a few example calculations floating around the internet. The questions is trivial but it seems like the solution is fairly complicated. I'm not looking for an exact solution as one probably doesn't exist, but at least an approximation would be nice.

Say I have an electromagnet and some distance away from it along its axis is a highly magnetically permeable material like iron. What is the force exerted on that object by the electromagnet?
 
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Thanks for the link but I did come across that while I was searching. The problem with that formula is it's for a closed magnetic circuit meaning the magnetic flux stays within a core material except for a small airgap. With my problem, the flux is only inside the electromagnet's core, and leaves the north pole and travels through the air back to the south pole. My example electromagnet below. The object it's applying force to would be some distance from either pole.

zGh4Ndj.png
 
OK, I misunderstood your meaning. Applications, such as yours, most likely have a wide range of variables to consider.
One thing is for sure: the magnetic field density (B) is inversely proportional to the square of the distance; see Biot-Savart Law: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/Biosav.html#c1
The attractive force is proportional to the B-field. So you may be able to make some findings from a known piece of metal, at closer distances, then make some predictions about behavior at further distances.
 
Alright so first case, let's say best case scenario. Tho object I'm lifting is the same material and diameter as the core, and is a fraction of the length of the core. In which case the force exerted on it at 0 distance would be:
[tex]F = \frac{B^2 A}{2 \mu_0}[/tex]

This is the formula Wikipedia provides for the force on the core of a solenoid.

If the force is proportional to the inverse squared of the distance, then the graph would look something like:
BTB97nF.jpg


I just need to turn that curve into a usable formula.Edit:
Thanks to you I have been finding more useful information. It looks like the field strength for a monopole drops at at a squared rate, but for a dipole like an electromagnet or magnet, it drops off at a cubed rate.
 
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