Where Does Energy Originate?

[Hypo]

Okay... For he last 3 months I've been studying energy back to back with undergoing all the laws that supports it.

Two famous laws "Thermodynamics" + "Law of Conservation" both state that ENERGY CAN NOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED, ok makes sense because so far everything on this universe follows it. But then I ask my self then where did it come from? Now philosophy is applied to this question to give a reasonable answer.

I do believe in those laws so far they've been the fundamental laws of physics. However, we use physics mostly to answer questions now the BIG question is left un answered where does energy come from?

Since now they believe in the BigBang"Universe from nothingness" then that violates the laws since energy can't come from nothingness?

Im left out here confused in the end of the day wondering why? or how?...

I believe their is something missing from the equation for something not logical at all...

Give me some sense people I'm kinda lost. Have people thought of this before or just choose to neglect it?

 

[tiny-tim]

Hi Hypo!

Since now they believe in the BigBang"Universe from nothingness" then that violates the laws since energy can't come from nothingness?

The big bang theory doesn't say what caused the big bang.

It only says that there was a big bang, with energy.

 

[Hypo]

Hi Hypo!


The big bang theory doesn't say what caused the big bang.

It only says that there was a big bang, with energy.

Okay did energy come along with the "big bang" or was it created by big bang? I am really confused at that point what about you?

I mean what DO ALL OF YOU think about energy and where it came from? Honestly its just mind blowing when you study more about it.

 

[tiny-tim]

Okay did energy come along with the "big bang" …

with the theory, yes

 

[Hypo]

with the theory, yes

How can they describe energy then? I mean where did it come from? Was it just there?

Or maybe it came with the bigbang "created" before or something because it just dosen't make any sense at all...

 

[jtbell]

I mean where did it [energy] come from.

WE. DON'T. KNOW. (gasp, shock, faint! : )

 

[Hypo]

WE. DON'T. KNOW. (gasp, shock, faint! : )

Aha.

We don't know much about energy and its origins and such yet we talk about it as if we know all about it. Really confusing

 

[russ_watters]

Why does it matter where it came from?

 

[Hypo]

Why does it matter where it came from?

Mainly because we have so many laws about energy yet we don't know its origin?

 

[Gerinski]

Why does it matter where it came from?

If this was the attitude towards every question, science would not exist.

From my ignorance, there are theories which allow the existence of our universe's energy out from nothing.
So the point is not so much, "where did the energy come from" but rather "why does something exist rather than nothing"?

 

[Hypo]

If this was the attitude towards every question, science would not exist.

From my ignorance, there are theories which allow the existence of our universe's energy out from nothing.
So the point is not so much, "where did the energy come from" but rather "why does something exist rather than nothing"?

True, I look at the laws of conservation and thermodynamics and I ask my self this question always. All the laws are true but dosen't make any sense at all! My be there is something missing in this puzzel after all we just now a tear drop of water from a SEA of things.

I believe that energy was created at some point or at least formed from something because BEING there is just not logical to my mind...

 

[Hypo]

I was never more confused in my life about a question and unfortunately no one knows the answer I think i'll take this confusion with me to the grave unless they find an answer over at CERN or somewhere...

 

[russ_watters]

Mainly because we have so many laws about energy yet we don't know its origin?

Again, so what? The origin doesn't affect the functionality of those laws.

 

[russ_watters]

If this was the attitude towards every question, science would not exist.

True, but as long as it is just the attitude toward the non-scientific ones, science will be fine.

 

[Hypo]

Again, so what? The origin doesn't affect the functionality of those laws.

Could be functional under our understanding. Maybe it functions another way in theory because we haven't understood the "OTHER" side of energy since it not completely understood so far.

 

[Drakkith]

Could be functional under our understanding. Maybe it functions another way in theory because we haven't understood the "OTHER" side of energy since it not completely understood so far.

Let me ask you this. What is energy? I don't want some mumbo-jumbo about what you think it *might* be, I want to know what it is according to your understanding. No speculating! Just your current understanding of what energy is.

 

[Hypo]

Let me ask you this. What is energy? I don't want some mumbo-jumbo about what you think it *might* be, I want to know what it is according to your understanding. No speculating! Just your current understanding of what energy is.

My current understanding of energy is that "thing" that is able to do work in a physical system it also that "thing" can not be created or destroyed. Its a constant value that is transferred from one from to another.

That to me is energy.

But between all the things in physics its the most that doesn't make sense... Not created Nor destroyed..?

 

[sweet springs]

Hi. We find and use hidden or potential energy for our purpose for example:
We use coal for fire. Coal store chemical energy inside. We release and use it.
Energy of light from Sun was stored in coal long time ago.
Nuclei core contains atomic or actually coulomb energy inside it. We use it.

We can find or transform energy but cannot create energy.
Regards.

 

[Hypo]

Hi. We find and use hidden or potential energy for our purpose for example:
We use coal for fire. Coal store chemical energy inside. We release and use it.
Energy of light from Sun was stored in coal long time ago.
Nuclei core contains atomic or actually coulomb energy inside it. We use it.

We can find or transform energy but cannot create energy.
Regards.

That I understood and its the simplest thing about energy honestly... But I can't believe that honestly because so far I believe energy was created at some point and released with the bigbang. That dense heat itself is massive amounts of energy so as matter was created from that energy aslo ani-matter that heat was increasing constantly and before the bigbang there was nothing so I guess energy was created at that point or transferred from a previous source before the bigbang that means there is something before it huh? Everything contradicts the other thing...

If they would understand the bigbang more maybe we could shed some light to this... I believe in the bigbang I believe in energy so as matter but I do believe they were created. Not constant and was "THERE" for all eternity.

Honestly guys do you think energy is like that there no begging and no ending? We don't even understand it properly...

 

[FeX32]

Energy "is", and will always be. It is that which drives this universe.
Of course we do not know where it originated from, as we have only been around for a little while, if we knew the answer to that question we would inherently know the answer to the other 1000 questions that boggles us today.

 

[Hypo]

Another point! Dark energy is expanding the universe.
Now many physicist agree the the universe will stop expanding now what would happen to all the dark energy? Its transferred or destroyed... But where can all that 73% of the universe go? Maybe transforms into matter.

Its all confusing and lead up to many questions now this motivates me to study energy & matter more and more.

 

[Hypo]

Energy "is", and will always be. It is that which drives this universe.
Of course we do not know where it originated from, as we have only been around for a little while, if we knew the answer to that question we would inherently know the answer to the other 1000 questions that boggles us today.

That leads me to think about eternity more and more lol...

 

[Drakkith]

My current understanding of energy is that "thing" that is able to do work in a physical system it also that "thing" can not be created or destroyed. Its a constant value that is transferred from one from to another.

That to me is energy.

But between all the things in physics its the most that doesn't make sense... Not created Nor destroyed..?

You say it is a "thing", but is it really? Consider that the only time we see energy is when something changes. Particles move, light is radiated away, etc. Have you considered that energy is not a "thing" but merely a property of a system? Perhaps a result of the arrangement of it's parts and the interactions of various forces.

Honestly guys do you think energy is like that there no begging and no ending? We don't even understand it properly...

We don't? Are you certain? Consider that we've known about energy for over 100 years and only through thorough investigation have discovered that energy is never created nor destroyed. If you imagine energy as the above description then it makes sense. Destroying energy would be destroying part of the system itself, which in our case is the universe.

Also, it is beyond our ability to discuss anything that happened before the big bang, which represents the point in time that our universe came into existence as we know it. Perhaps there was something prior to it, perhaps there wasn't, but we have no way of knowing with any amount of certainty, so we cannot discuss anything but opinions about it.

 

[Drakkith]

Another point! Dark energy is expanding the universe.
Now many physicist agree the the universe will stop expanding now what would happen to all the dark energy? Its transferred or destroyed... But where can all that 73% of the universe go? Maybe transforms into matter.

Its all confusing and lead up to many questions now this motivates me to study energy & matter more and more.

Current evidence supports the idea that the universe will not stop expanding but will in fact accelerate, possibly forever.

 

[Hypo]

Current evidence supports the idea that the universe will not stop expanding but will in fact accelerate, possibly forever.

What current ideas support it?

For every beginning there is an ending in this life this universe is one of them. Since this universe is "Created".

 

[Hypo]

I've read a few articles its states that Dark Energy is going to constantly keep the universe expanding.

Im guessing because "energy" can't be destroyed? Or then the fact its covering 73% of the universe.

 

[Drakkith]

What current ideas support it?

For every beginning there is an ending in this life this universe is one of them. Since this universe is "Created".

Observations of supernovas has shown us that the rate of expansion is increasing, aka it is accelerating. A Nobel prize was recently awarded to the guys that discovered this.

 

[Hypo]

Observations of supernovas has shown us that the rate of expansion is increasing, aka it is accelerating. A Nobel prize was recently awarded to the guys that discovered this.

If it is accelerating it will lose that speed and then stop expanding at some point then roll up again form the gravity now maybe this is a theory. Oh yea there is on like that. "Big Crunch"

 

[Drakkith]

I've read a few articles its states that Dark Energy is going to constantly keep the universe expanding.

Im guessing because "energy" can't be destroyed? Or then the fact its covering 73% of the universe.

Energy conservation is much more complicated in general relativity, so that one is hard to answer. Part of it is that energy isn't as well defined in GR.

 

[Hypo]

Energy + matter is something that should be studied constantly over and over again!
I find there is more to it than what was stated before.

THE Reason for my questioning is it does not make any sense some of you could careless about it because since I can understand energy as it is and it fits my conditions its all good. Maybe there is more about... Could be were missing the "big picture" of it all meh... At the end I'll still read energy + force + matter because all of them play in an amazing role that we still know "not nothing but" a small part of it...

 

[Drakkith]

If it is accelerating it will lose that speed and then stop expanding at some point then roll up again form the gravity now maybe this is a theory. Oh yea there is on like that. "Big Crunch"

No, it will not. Not according to recent evidence.

 

[Hypo]

No, it will not. Not according to recent evidence.

Could you link me you're evidences so I can take a look at it?

You're only support for that argument is that the universe is expanding? Why then(in you're opinion)?

 

[Drakkith]

Could you link me you're evidences so I can take a look at it?

You're only support for that argument is that the universe is expanding? Why then(in you're opinion)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_Cosmology_Project
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15165371
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2011/

 

[russ_watters]

If it is accelerating it will lose that speed and then stop expanding at some point then roll up again form the gravity now maybe this is a theory. Oh yea there is on like that. "Big Crunch"

You're confusing "accelerating" with "decelerating". "Accelerating" is to go faster and faster. As in - keep expanding at an ever increasing rate. It's the opposite of stopping.

 

[Hypo]

Are there any physical or mathematical equations to support the big bang?
I'd like to study each step by looking at each equation. Can you hint me with them?I have an idea I'd like to practice with math + physics to prove it.

So far nothing proves that the universe will keep on expanding with no end. What's been proven that it does expand and countless experiments years ago proved it so as recent ones.(Yet I believe all of you would say it won't end because 96% of the universe is energy + matter = both can't be created nor destroyed.)

Energy, matter, the beginning, the end all in all something is related something BIG out of the picture.

You could find what I'm saying is complete non-sense but keep in mind many theories and ideas started this way. Even if I was wrong I'm lift with good answers of what I'm talking about, or possibile better idea on certain things.

Hyp.

 

[Drakkith]

Are there any physical or mathematical equations to support the big bang?
I'd like to study each step by looking at each equation. Can you hint me with them?

Not a chance. The physics behind the standard model of cosmology is extremely complex and involves multiples kinds of math and multiple types of theories. You'd have to learn both General Relativity and at least a little bit of Quantum Mechanics, no small feat.

So far nothing proves that the universe will keep on expanding with no end. What's been proven that it does expand and countless experiments years ago proved it so as recent ones.(Yet I believe all of you would say it won't end because 96% of the universe is energy + matter = both can't be created nor destroyed.)

Are you looking for the ultimate irrefutable evidence? If so, you're never going to find it. We know what we are looking at and that it tells us that the universe is expanding and accelerating. Unless something changes then it will continue to expand, possibly forever. But, seeing as how we cannot see the future there is always the possibility that something will be different in the future.

Energy, matter, the beginning, the end all in all something is related something BIG out of the picture.

You could find what I'm saying is complete non-sense but keep in mind many theories and ideas started this way. Even if I was wrong I'm lift with good answers of what I'm talking about, or possibile better idea on certain things.

Hyp.

You are severely overconfident in your own ideas. People come to this forum all the time with similar ideas and usually have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you really want to come up with a new theory you are going to have to learn the current ones first and address the known issues with those. In addition, personal theories are not allowed on PF per the rules. Please keep to the standard models and theories.

 

[Hypo]

Not a chance. The physics behind the standard model of cosmology is extremely complex and involves multiples kinds of math and multiple types of theories. You'd have to learn both General Relativity and at least a little bit of Quantum Mechanics, no small feat.
Are you looking for the ultimate irrefutable evidence? If so, you're never going to find it. We know what we are looking at and that it tells us that the universe is expanding and accelerating. Unless something changes then it will continue to expand, possibly forever. But, seeing as how we cannot see the future there is always the possibility that something will be different in the future.
You are severely overconfident in your own ideas. People come to this forum all the time with similar ideas and usually have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If you really want to come up with a new theory you are going to have to learn the current ones first and address the known issues with those. In addition, personal theories are not allowed on PF per the rules. Please keep to the standard models and theories.

I've given you the wrong image of what I am trying to achieve.

About the personal theories thing I'd say that's far enough.

 

[russ_watters]

Are there any physical or mathematical equations to support the big bang?
I'd like to study each step by looking at each equation. Can you hint me with them?

This will take you years. The Big Bang is a consequence of General Relativity, so you will have to learn that -- and the math required to learn it first.

So far nothing proves that the universe will keep on expanding with no end.

You can't say that. Just because you are unaware of the theory/evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're going to need to have a little trust in people who do know.

You could find what I'm saying is complete non-sense but keep in mind many theories and ideas started this way.

No they don't. What you're doing is idle speculation based on ignorance. New theories start with intensive study and complete understanding of what is already known about a particular subject.

 

[Jasso]

Are there any physical or mathematical equations to support the big bang?
I'd like to study each step by looking at each equation. Can you hint me with them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble's_law[/PLAIN]

"Although widely attributed to Edwin Hubble, the law was first derived from the General Relativity equations by Georges Lemaître in a 1927 article where he proposed that the Universe is expanding and suggested an estimated value of the rate of expansion, now called the Hubble constant.[2][3][4][5][6] Two years later Edwin Hubble confirmed the existence of that law and determined a more accurate value for the constant that now bears his name[7]."

The General Relativity equations mentioned in that wiki article are known as the Einstein Field Equations. They involve some pretty hairy mathematics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_field_equations

So far nothing proves that the universe will keep on expanding with no end. What's been proven that it does expand and countless experiments years ago proved it so as recent ones.

I think you misunderstand the concept of "proof" in science; there is no absolute proof, only evidence which supports or contradicts a hypothesis. All the evidence supports an expanding universe with an accelerating rate of expansion, while there is no evidence that the rate of expansion will slow.

(Yet I believe all of you would say it won't end because 96% of the universe is energy + matter = both can't be created nor destroyed.)

The laws of the universe are limited to this universe. It makes no sense to talk about the laws of this universe (e.g. conservation of matter-energy) where the universe doesn't exist (e.g. "before" the big bang).

 

[Whovian]

Okay did energy come along with the "big bang" or was it created by big bang? I am really confused at that point what about you?

I mean what DO ALL OF YOU think about energy and where it came from? Honestly its just mind blowing when you study more about it.

Gosh, I'm surprised no one's brought this into the discussion.

Per our current understanding of the Universe, there was nothing before the Big Bang. That was the beginning of existence and it makes no sense to talk about before it. So all that energy's existed at every valid point in time.

 

[Naty1]

Per our current understanding of the Universe, there was nothing before the Big Bang.

no one knows: Some think time started at the Big Bang [Hawking] others think space and time started at the Big Bang...other think there was no Big Bang [e.g.; Steinhardt,Turok].
How about gravity and entropy, for example...
The Big Bang does not describe cosmic origins...it starts just after time zero. At the huge densities at the beginning of the Big Bang, gravity was the dominant energy. In this case it was repulsive gravity resulting in an inflationary model of cosmology. It is Einstein's cosmological constant that provides this repulsive push.

Are there any physical or mathematical equations to support the big bang?

Check out here to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflationary_cosmology

Allan Guth had the original idea which has been improved upon over time...

 

[Gerinski]

Yet I believe all of you would say it won't end because 96% of the universe is energy + matter = both can't be created nor destroyed.
Hyp.

Don't forget gravity, it is the least understood form of energy, for example its relationship with entropy (well dark energy is probably less understood...).
It is likely that gravity holds the key to some answers to some of the deep puzzles.

We do not know why there is energy, many scientists believe that the net energy of the universe is zero, if so the question becomes "why did zero energy 'decouple' into positive and negative energy and make gradients".
In any case energy seems to be what makes everything in the universe exist, forces and matter, including gravity and dark energy, so we can say that energy is simply the reason why there is a universe at all.

 

[Drakkith]

Don't forget gravity, it is the least understood form of energy, for example its relationship with entropy (well dark energy is probably less understood...).
It is likely that gravity holds the key to some answers to some of the deep puzzles.

Gravity is not a form of energy, it is one of the 4 fundamental interactions.

In any case energy seems to be what makes everything in the universe exist, forces and matter, including gravity and dark energy, so we can say that energy is simply the reason why there is a universe at all.

None of the fundamental interactions require energy to function. I think you are looking way too far into what energy is.

 

[SHISHKABOB]

I think maybe the word "energy" has become a bit overused in some places. Mostly sci fi. In lots of sci fi stories or games, people talk about energy as if it's a "thing" like a bullet or a piece of metal as a shield.

Energy isn't a thing at all, it's just a way to describe the properties of a system, like Drakkith said. Therefore it doesn't really "come from" anywhere, it's just there.

I mean, heck, a rock can have many different amounts of energy, depending on what you want.

Picture a boulder of mass m on top of a table that is h meters high, and the table is on top of a hill whose bottom is x meters down.

The boulder has mgh energy if you care about it falling from the table, but it also has mgx energy if you care about it falling from the table and down to the bottom of the hill. In fact you could even use mgx when considering it falling off the table only.

Energy is only relevant when you're talking about differences of energy, so really there is no "fixed" amount of energy, just a fixed amount of "stuff" which can be described with energy.

 

[bluey]

Google is your friend!

OK Ill put it another way and this is understood by anyone with a bit more than a passing interest in physics,energy comes from nothing! take a configurable bit of space with nothing in it, no radiation,no heat or light nothing and you will get virtual particles popping in and out of existence.If you had a proton which is made of quarks the quarks and the gluon particles that hold it together make up about 10% of the mass,the rest is made up of virtual particles,which is nothing.this is one of the most precise measurements ever made in science.Go ahead and look it up.

 

[Drakkith]

OK Ill put it another way and this is understood by anyone with a bit more than a passing interest in physics,energy comes from nothing! take a configurable bit of space with nothing in it, no radiation,no heat or light nothing and you will get virtual particles popping in and out of existence.If you had a proton which is made of quarks the quarks and the gluon particles that hold it together make up about 10% of the mass,the rest is made up of virtual particles,which is nothing.this is one of the most precise measurements ever made in science.Go ahead and look it up.

I'm not sure I agree with this "energy comes from nothing" idea. If virtual particles do exist and they work like we think they do, then we know exactly where the energy comes from, and it isn't "nothing" as far as I understand.

 

[bluey]

I'm not sure I agree with this "energy comes from nothing" idea. If virtual particles do exist and they work like we think they do, then we know exactly where the energy comes from, and it isn't "nothing" as far as I understand.

Well that's Quantum mechanics for you!It is not intuitive to us on the macro scale and seems downright weird. We have the idea that condensed matter was created at the radiation decoupling stage soon after the big bang which it has been theorized was itself a quantum fluctuation of vacuum energy.

 

[Drakkith]

Well that's Quantum mechanics for you!It is not intuitive to us on the macro scale and seems downright weird. We have the idea that condensed matter was created at the radiation decoupling stage soon after the big bang which it has been theorized was itself a quantum fluctuation of vacuum energy.

Yes, but that is not "nothing" in my opinion.

 

[bluey]

Yes, but that is not "nothing" in my opinion.

The quantum fluctuation that caused the big bang came from nothing and the vacuum energy of space from which the virtual particles borrow their energy works out mathematically to be zero (nothing). Its to do with symmetry, something and nothing will cancel out. It took me a while to comprehend it but when the penny dropped it all became clear.

 

[phinds]

The quantum fluctuation that caused the big bang came from nothing ...

I was under the impression that physicsts to not pretend to know WHAT caused the events at the singularity. Do you have citations for this?