Equal Peak Voltages in a Circuit: Is It Always True?

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The discussion centers on the accuracy of combining peak voltages in a circuit, specifically addressing the assertion that the vector sum of peak voltages equals the battery's peak voltage. Participants highlight a critical error in the treatment of voltages across inductors and capacitors, arguing that they should be added rather than subtracted. The conversation also touches on the use of phasors and complex numbers in circuit analysis, with some asserting that the traditional definitions and conventions used in textbooks may lead to confusion. The importance of understanding the real and imaginary components of voltages in AC circuits is emphasized, as well as the need for clarity in teaching these concepts. Overall, the thread critiques the pedagogical approach to phasors and complex impedance in electrical engineering education.
  • #31
Hemant said:
So what we are doing is that we are adding voltages across all components and then equating it to EMF of battery?
Right. The basic problem is adding sines or cosines. If Kirchoff's voltage law gives you, for instance,
$$v = v_1 \sin(\omega t + \phi_1) + v_2 \sin(\omega t + \phi_2) + v_3 \sin(\omega t + \phi_3),$$ you can jump through hoops using various trig identities to evaluate the sum, but it's easier if we take advantage of Euler's formula and say $$v = \operatorname{Im}[v_1 e^{i(\omega t + \phi_1)} + v_2 e^{i(\omega t + \phi_2)} + v_3 e^{i(\omega t + \phi_3)}].$$ You can evaluate the sum using algebraic methods or you can represent each complex quantity in the complex plane and use what you know about adding vectors graphically. In general, either of these methods is less work than using trig identities. Once you have the sum, you just pick off the imaginary part and you have your answer. (If you were adding cosines, it's the same basic problem but you take the real part of the sum.)

Unlike the others, I think you should understand and know how to use phasors. It's not that difficult, and the more ways you know how to represent and work with complex numbers, the better. They can make some problems trivially easy. They do come in handy later on when you study wave optics, particularly when you get to single-slit diffraction.
 
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  • #32
@vela I don't think the issue is at all with phasors/complex numbers, it's more the strange formalism that this book and apparently others seems to use.

It just causes confusions, e.g. for example consider the title of this very thread: "why is the vector sum of peak voltages of circuit elements = peak EMF of the battery"

By labelling the phasors with their magnitudes, OP has likely been misled into thinking that a phasor represents a "peak" of that quantity, when in fact the word "peak" should be removed and the title should instead refer to the time-dependent voltages/voltage phasors themselves [and their time-dependent projections].

The "didactic" presentation in this book obfuscates what should be a very clear and simple treatment with complex numbers, and is ultimately unhelpful IMO.
 
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  • #33
To add to @etotheipi above, the OP @Hemant might even be missing the principal use of the ac circuit theory=Batteries are in general DC. The ac voltage refers to a voltage that is sinusoidal in time=the kind that is found in all electrical outlets.
(In general, the frequency used is normally ## f=50 ## or ## 60 ## Hz, and the voltage amplitude is typically around 100 volts. )
The appliances and other things that the electrical outlet powers have impedances associated with them that are the result of resistive, inductive and capacitive circuit components. It may be worth mentioning that filament light bulbs are basically resistors. It can be good to have some introduction to ac circuits and their operation to at least get a basic understanding of how the electrical circuits work that we use on an everyday basis.
 
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  • #34
@Hemant, I feel that you might have been slightly left behind and that perhaps some of the discussion here and some of my earlier comments as well were not helpful for building your understanding. I'd like to try and summarise, just in case you're still a bit confused.

First consider an oscillating voltage ##v = v_0 \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0)}## applied to either a resistor, capacitor or inductor. Through the component a current will flow, oscillating each time at the same angular frequency but with perhaps an additional phase ##\varphi##, that is ##i = i_0 \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0 + \varphi)}##. Let's consider the AC response for resistors, capacitors and inductors in turn:$$\begin{align*}

\mathrm{R}: &\, i = \frac{v}{R} = \frac{v_0}{R} \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0)} \\ \\

\mathrm{C}: &\, i = \frac{dq}{dt} = C \frac{dv}{dt} = -\omega C v_0 \sin{(\omega t + \phi_0)} = \omega C v_0 \cos \left(\omega t + \phi_0 + \frac{\pi}{2} \right) \\ \\

\mathrm{I}: &\, i = i(0) + \int_0^{t} \frac{di}{d\xi} d\xi = i(0) + \int_0^t \frac{v_0}{L} \cos{(\omega \xi + \phi_0)} d\xi = \frac{v_0}{\omega L} \sin{(\omega t + \phi_0)} = \frac{v_0}{\omega L} \cos \left( \omega t + \phi_0 - \frac{\pi}{2} \right)
\end{align*}$$You may notice that the resistor response is in phase with the voltage, whilst the capacitor and inductor responses are ##\pi / 2## ahead and behind the voltage respectively.

It is convenient to introduce the complex voltage and complex current, defined by ##V = V_0 e^{i \omega t}## and ##I = I_0 e^{i \omega t}## respectively, where ##V_0 = v_0 e^{i \phi_0}## and ##I_0 = i_0 e^{i (\phi_0 + \varphi)}## are complex amplitudes encoding the magnitude and initial phase. The ##\mathrm{Re}## function maps from the complex voltage/current and standard voltage/current, that is, ##v = \mathrm{Re}(V)## and ##i = \mathrm{Re}(I)##. One helpful property to remember is that the ##\mathrm{Re}## function commutes with time-differentiation; given some ##z: \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{C}## with ##t \mapsto z(t)##, you can write ##z(t) = a(t) + ib(t)## and thus$$\mathrm{Re} \left( \frac{\mathrm{d}z}{\mathrm{d}t} \right) = \mathrm{Re} \left( \frac{\mathrm{d}a}{\mathrm{d}t} + i \frac{\mathrm{d}b}{\mathrm{d}t} \right) = \frac{\mathrm{d}a}{\mathrm{d}t} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\left( \mathrm{Re}(z) \right)}{\mathrm{d}t} $$What this means is that you can do all the differentiations in complex numbers, and convert everything back only at the very end.

Now, consider a "black box" consisting of some network of resistors, inductors and capacitors. It may be assigned a (complex) impedance ##Z##, which you may think of loosely as a complex analogue of resistance, and is defined as the ratio ##Z := V / I##. For example, for the resistor you simply have ##I = V/R## and thus$$Z_R = \frac{V}{I} = R$$then for the capacitor, you have ##I = C \frac{dV}{dt} = i\omega C V_0 e^{i \omega t} = i\omega C V## and thus$$Z_C = \frac{V}{I} = \frac{1}{i\omega C }$$and for the inductor, you have ##V = L \frac{dI}{dt} = i\omega L I_0 e^{i \omega t} = i\omega L I## and thus$$Z_I = \frac{V}{I} = i \omega L$$How do you combine impedances? Let's just do one example, e.g. say ##N## impedances ##\{Z_1, \dots, Z_N \}## in parallel. The complex voltage ##V## across each of these is the same, and the sum of the complex currents through each must equal the total current into the parallel network, hence$$\sum_{k=1}^{N} I_k = V\sum_{k=1}^{N} \frac{1}{Z_k} = \frac{V}{Z_{\mathrm{eff}}}$$which upon division by ##V## yields the familiar formula.

You might wonder, do all of Kirchoff's laws, and the rules you know for analysing circuits hold also on the complex amplitudes ##V_0## and ##I_0##? Yes! For example, consider the current law applied to a junction with ##N## inputs, $$(\forall t \in D) \quad \mathrm{Re}\left( \sum_{k=1}^N (I_0)_k e^{i \omega t} \right) \implies \sum_{k=1}^{N} (I_0)_k = 0$$because the only way for the sum to be zero for all values of ##t## is if the sum of the complex current amplitudes themselves vanish. The same analysis holds for the voltage law.

Why is this formalism useful? Well, let's consider your example of a circuit containing a resistor, capacitor and inductor in series, connected across an oscillating voltage source. You already know from the "impedances in series" principle that the resulting impedance is$$Z = Z_R + Z_L + Z_C = R + i \left(\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C} \right)$$From this it's not hard to write down the current,$$I = \frac{V}{Z} = \frac{V}{R + i \left(\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C} \right)} = \frac{V e^{- i \phi_Z}}{\sqrt{R^2 + (\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C})^2}}$$where the phase shift ##\phi_Z## is given by$$\phi_Z = \arctan \left( \frac{\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C}}{R} \right)$$With this we can now work out some interesting quantities. For instance, what is the rate of energy dissipation in this oscillator, due to the resistor? You have$$\langle P \rangle = R|I_0|^2 \langle \cos^2{(\omega t - \phi_Z)} \rangle = \frac{1}{2}R |I_0|^2 = \frac{R|V_0|^2}{2(R^2 + (\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C})^2)}$$At resonance, ##\omega_0 L - \frac{1}{\omega_0 C} = 0##. Half-power thus occurs when ##\omega_h L - \frac{1}{\omega_h C} = \pm R##, or in other words when$$\omega_h = \mp \Gamma + \sqrt{\Gamma^2 + \omega_0^2}$$with ##\Gamma := R/2L##. Then, you may identify the full-width half-power as ##\delta \omega = \frac{R}{L}##, which results in a quality factor ##Q = \frac{\omega_0}{\delta \omega} = \frac{1}{R} \sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}##.

In other words, complex numbers allow you to fairly easily analyse key properties of oscillating circuits, and oscillating systems in general.
 
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  • #35
One correction to post 34=the electrical current is always the same in each component of the series circuit. It is the voltages that are out of phase with the current for the inductor and capacitor. For the resistor, the voltage drop across the resistor is in phase with the current. The idea is good, but it might need a minor edit or two. (Edit: See post 36=very good).
 
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  • #36
Charles Link said:
One correction to post 34=the electrical current is always the same in each component of the series circuit. It is the voltages that are out of phase with the current for the inductor and capacitor. For the resistor, the voltage drop across the resistor is in phase with the current. The idea is good, but it might need a minor edit or two.

What I wrote is correct! For that first part I was considering the same voltage source applied to each component in turn (not all of the components in series) and showing the different resulting current responses in each case.

Although, I will edit to make this more clear :smile:
 
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  • #37
Charles Link said:
It can be good to have some introduction to ac circuits and their operation to at least get a basic understanding of how the electrical circuits work that we use on an everyday basis.
I have studied about RMS voltage and current of ac circuit and compared it with DC circuit of equivalent voltage which generates same power.
Is this what is being talked in this post?or is it so something else?
etotheipi said:
@Hemant, I feel that you might have been slightly left behind and that perhaps some of the discussion here and some of my earlier comments as well were not helpful for building your understanding. I'd like to try and summarise, just in case you're still a bit confused.

First consider an oscillating voltage ##v = v_0 \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0)}## applied to either a resistor, capacitor or inductor. Through the component a current will flow, oscillating each time at the same angular frequency but with perhaps an additional phase ##\varphi##, that is ##i = i_0 \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0 + \varphi)}##. Let's consider the AC response for resistors, capacitors and inductors in turn:$$\begin{align*}

\mathrm{R}: &\, i = \frac{v}{R} = \frac{v_0}{R} \cos{(\omega t + \phi_0)} \\ \\

\mathrm{C}: &\, i = \frac{dq}{dt} = C \frac{dv}{dt} = -\omega C v_0 \sin{(\omega t + \phi_0)} = \omega C v_0 \cos \left(\omega t + \phi_0 + \frac{\pi}{2} \right) \\ \\

\mathrm{I}: &\, i = i(0) + \int_0^{t} \frac{di}{d\xi} d\xi = i(0) + \int_0^t \frac{v_0}{L} \cos{(\omega \xi + \phi_0)} d\xi = \frac{v_0}{\omega L} \sin{(\omega t + \phi_0)} = \frac{v_0}{\omega L} \cos \left( \omega t + \phi_0 - \frac{\pi}{2} \right)
\end{align*}$$You may notice that the resistor response is in phase with the voltage, whilst the capacitor and inductor responses are ##\pi / 2## ahead and behind the voltage respectively.

It is convenient to introduce the complex voltage and complex current, defined by ##V = V_0 e^{i \omega t}## and ##I = I_0 e^{i \omega t}## respectively, where ##V_0 = v_0 e^{i \phi_0}## and ##I_0 = i_0 e^{i (\phi_0 + \varphi)}## are complex amplitudes encoding the magnitude and initial phase. The ##\mathrm{Re}## function maps from the complex voltage/current and standard voltage/current, that is, ##v = \mathrm{Re}(V)## and ##i = \mathrm{Re}(I)##. One helpful property to remember is that the ##\mathrm{Re}## function commutes with time-differentiation; given some ##z: \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{C}## with ##t \mapsto z(t)##, you can write ##z(t) = a(t) + ib(t)## and thus$$\mathrm{Re} \left( \frac{\mathrm{d}z}{\mathrm{d}t} \right) = \mathrm{Re} \left( \frac{\mathrm{d}a}{\mathrm{d}t} + i \frac{\mathrm{d}b}{\mathrm{d}t} \right) = \frac{\mathrm{d}a}{\mathrm{d}t} = \frac{\mathrm{d}\left( \mathrm{Re}(z) \right)}{\mathrm{d}t} $$What this means is that you can do all the differentiations in complex numbers, and convert everything back only at the very end.

Now, consider a "black box" consisting of some network of resistors, inductors and capacitors. It may be assigned a (complex) impedance ##Z##, which you may think of loosely as a complex analogue of resistance, and is defined as the ratio ##Z := V / I##. For example, for the resistor you simply have ##I = V/R## and thus$$Z_R = \frac{V}{I} = R$$then for the capacitor, you have ##I = C \frac{dV}{dt} = i\omega C V_0 e^{i \omega t} = i\omega C V## and thus$$Z_C = \frac{V}{I} = \frac{1}{i\omega C }$$and for the inductor, you have ##V = L \frac{dI}{dt} = i\omega L I_0 e^{i \omega t} = i\omega L I## and thus$$Z_I = \frac{V}{I} = i \omega L$$How do you combine impedances? Let's just do one example, e.g. say ##N## impedances ##\{Z_1, \dots, Z_N \}## in parallel. The complex voltage ##V## across each of these is the same, and the sum of the complex currents through each must equal the total current into the parallel network, hence$$\sum_{k=1}^{N} I_k = V\sum_{k=1}^{N} \frac{1}{Z_k} = \frac{V}{Z_{\mathrm{eff}}}$$which upon division by ##V## yields the familiar formula.

You might wonder, do all of Kirchoff's laws, and the rules you know for analysing circuits hold also on the complex amplitudes ##V_0## and ##I_0##? Yes! For example, consider the current law applied to a junction with ##N## inputs, $$(\forall t \in D) \quad \mathrm{Re}\left( \sum_{k=1}^N (I_0)_k e^{i \omega t} \right) \implies \sum_{k=1}^{N} (I_0)_k = 0$$because the only way for the sum to be zero for all values of ##t## is if the sum of the complex current amplitudes themselves vanish. The same analysis holds for the voltage law.

Why is this formalism useful? Well, let's consider your example of a circuit containing a resistor, capacitor and inductor in series, connected across an oscillating voltage source. You already know from the "impedances in series" principle that the resulting impedance is$$Z = Z_R + Z_L + Z_C = R + i \left(\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C} \right)$$From this it's not hard to write down the current,$$I = \frac{V}{Z} = \frac{V}{R + i \left(\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C} \right)} = \frac{V e^{- i \phi_Z}}{\sqrt{R^2 + (\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C})^2}}$$where the phase shift ##\phi_Z## is given by$$\phi_Z = \arctan \left( \frac{\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C}}{R} \right)$$With this we can now work out some interesting quantities. For instance, what is the rate of energy dissipation in this oscillator, due to the resistor? You have$$\langle P \rangle = R|I_0|^2 \langle \cos^2{(\omega t - \phi_Z)} \rangle = \frac{1}{2}R |I_0|^2 = \frac{R|V_0|^2}{2(R^2 + (\omega L - \frac{1}{\omega C})^2)}$$At resonance, ##\omega_0 L - \frac{1}{\omega_0 C} = 0##. Half-power thus occurs when ##\omega_h L - \frac{1}{\omega_h C} = \pm R##, or in other words when$$\omega_h = \mp \Gamma + \sqrt{\Gamma^2 + \omega_0^2}$$with ##\Gamma := R/2L##. Then, you may identify the full-width half-power as ##\delta \omega = \frac{R}{L}##, which results in a quality factor ##Q = \frac{\omega_0}{\delta \omega} = \frac{1}{R} \sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}##.

In other words, complex numbers allow you to fairly easily analyse key properties of oscillating circuits, and oscillating systems in general.
Thanks for clarifying what is happening,
Can I please get some time to digest what is written in post although it is written in very simple but I am new to complex numbers and I think it will take me a little bit of time to understand it.
 
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  • #38
Perhaps I can offer a very simple description of the ac circuit problem:
The circuit is driven by a sinusoidal voltage of known amplitude. It is known that in each component of the circuit, the voltage and current will also be sinusoidal in time at that same frequency, but we need to compute the amplitude and phase of each of the sinusoidal waveforms across each component. The approach is similar to ohm's law for a DC circuit, but involves using complex impedances instead of simple resistances.
 
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  • #39
Hemant said:
Now only thing I am not able to understand is the last step where the denominator is being square rooted.

The denominator was squared and then square rooted. He is expressing the magnitude.
 
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