European Referendum: Uniting Europe?

[Clausius2]

We may as well having our proper referendum here. Just to know what do we think about this stuff, and seeing if Europe is as united as it seems.

 

[meteor]

I vote yes. It will give a major sense of unity, and will contribute to the making of Europe as a superpower, able to compete with the USA, Japan, Russia China and the rest of the "players"

 

[loseyourname]

Could you provide a link so us non-Europeans can get some idea of what the content of this constitution is?

 

[franznietzsche]

Yeah, it took me a while before i had any idea what you actually meant.

 

[meteor]

Could you provide a link so us non-Europeans can get some idea of what the content of this constitution is?

http://www.unizar.es/euroconstitucion/Home.htm

I'm from a region (Catalonia) where nationalist parties are against the Constitution, because it's against Catalonia interests, but i don't care about that. I feel european above catalan

 

[Clausius2]

My vote: Although I think our country, Spain, has been diminished and pushed down in this Constitution by means of the French and German virtual superiority, in spite I think that Niza settlement was better for us, in spite our president Zapatero defends the positive vote, I'm going to vote yes because I want to be proud of being European, and because we spaniards are doing the ridiculous by means of a horrible external politics enhanced by a stupid president and maybe being under the European flag all that could be buried.

 

[marlon]

My vote: Although I think our country, Spain, has been diminished and pushed down in this Constitution by means of the French and German virtual superiority, in spite I think that Niza settlement was better for us, in spite our president Zapatero defends the positive vote, I'm going to vote yes because I want to be proud of being European, and because we spaniards are doing the ridiculous by means of a horrible external politics enhanced by a stupid president and maybe being under the European flag all that could be buried.

VIVA EUROPA,

though France and Germany will always be the boss...that is just the truth and it does not disturbe me

marlon

 

[Clausius2]

VIVA EUROPA,

though France and Germany will always be the boss...that is just the truth and it does not disturbe me

marlon

At least Belgium was aside France and Germany against USA about Iraq's War. Maybe now your prime minister will play the cards with Chirac or Schröeder, while Zapatero and Spain sweeps the floor of their bathrooms.

 

[PerennialII]

Viva Europa from the north !

 

[Clausius2]

I'm from a region (Catalonia) where nationalist parties are against the Constitution, because it's against Catalonia interests

Yes, I forgot to say that is another reason for voting Yes, just because that mad people say NO.

And thanks for defining Catalonia as a "region", because lately some people like those you posted are prone to call everything as a "nation".

 

[arildno]

What do I care?
I'm Norwegian, so we're not part in EU anyways, we're only subject to their legislation with no influence upon it..

 

[marlon]

Belgium is all for Europe. Our prime minister (Verhofstad) was close to become president of the European comission but it turned out to be Barosso...

marlon

 

[Chronos]

French leadership? Last I heard they were thinking about surrendering to North Korea.

 

[Clausius2]

What do I care?
I'm Norwegian, so we're not part in EU anyways, we're only subject to their legislation with no influence upon it..

You, norwegians, always live on your own, you seem a bit selfish, don't you?. You wish you never get into a war with some another country, because then, where do will be Europe? Whatever will be, will be...

Surprisingly, every European country tries to copy the way of life of countries like Norway or Sweden, our governments think you are more advanced in social stuffs. But they don't understand that an spanish /italian / french/ has roughly nothing in common with a norwegian. The day we, spaniards, will give up to look to you maybe we will advance a bit. But copying your "advanced" social measures so rapidly, will not benefit us at all.

 

[dextercioby]

French leadership? Last I heard they were thinking about surrendering to North Korea.

North Korea...? Wasn't it Vietnam...?

Daniel.

 

[meteor]

French leadership? Last I heard they were thinking about surrendering to North Korea

And, we can't also forget thathttp://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61672

*meteor runs and hide*

PS=It's a joke, I don't want any kind of attack from my close neighbors

 

[marlon]

And, we can't also forget thathttp://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/politics/61672

*meteor runs and hide*

PS=It's a joke, I don't want any kind of attack from my close neighbors

This is an American site, right ? Them Americans almost had a French looking president...

marlon, who lives just above France, so pity me...

 

[Clausius2]

French leadership? Last I heard they were thinking about surrendering to North Korea.

France is one of the true foundators of Europe. Despites their economics has not got a good health, their diplomatic power is outstanding.

"Once upon a time" when Aznar was in our government, France made the impossible to get rid of him, because they knew Spain was having an apparent increasing economic power. Now, Chirac has bought a new dog, one called Zapatero, and he is the best pet of his owner.

 

[Gokul43201]

Yeah, it took me a while before i had any idea what you actually meant.

You're not alone.

There a huge campaign going on all over Europe (especially in France, Spain and Germany) trying to educate the people about the proposed constitution, but a large majority of those polled (in the EU) yesterday (I think) still had no idea.

I believe most of Spain, however, is for the Unified Constitution.

 

[meteor]

Them Americans almost had a French looking president...

Sure? I can't fathom who are you speaking about. Kerry?

 

[marlon]

Them Americans almost had a French looking president...

Sure? I can't fathom who are you speaking about. Kerry?

Correctamundo

marlon

 

[Clausius2]

You're not alone.

There a huge campaign going on all over Europe (especially in France, Spain and Germany) trying to educate the people about the proposed constitution, but a large majority of those polled (in the EU) yesterday (I think) still had no idea.

I believe most of Spain, however, is for the Unified Constitution.

We are the first to vote, and we'll do it on 20th February. Pay attention to this day, because if we reject the Constitution, it will be a nice disasterous day to remember, and surely the news about we have buried the Constitution will spread world wide.

 

[arildno]

You, norwegians, always live on your own, you seem a bit selfish, don't you?. You wish you never get into a war with some another country, because then, where do will be Europe? Whatever will be, will be...

Surprisingly, every European country tries to copy the way of life of countries like Norway or Sweden, our governments think you are more advanced in social stuffs. But they don't understand that an spanish /italian / french/ has roughly nothing in common with a norwegian. The day we, spaniards, will give up to look to you maybe we will advance a bit. But copying your "advanced" social measures so rapidly, will not benefit us at all.

Quite right.
And, to set the record straight:
I'm not too sure whether Norway is such a paradise upon Earth after all..

 

[dextercioby]

Do what i did:
1.go to www.google.com
2.Type in the search bar:"French military victories"
3.Don't hit "Enter",just click on "I'm feeling lucky"...

"Dexter hides,too"...

Daniel.

 

[dextercioby]

Click on that link in the new page (yes,the one with the word slanted)...

"Dexter disappears"...

Daniel.

 

[Clausius2]

Quite right.
And, to set the record straight:
I'm not too sure whether Norway is such a paradise upon Earth after all..

I only can tell you about a friend of mine who went for holidays last summer there. The FIRST day he arrived with another five friends, someone stole their suitcases from the car. He lost all his clothes. Nice country,

Anyway, Norway will be always one of my desired paradises to travel to.

 

[arildno]

Come here in late November, Clausius; Norway is rather unparadiasical at that time..

 

[dextercioby]

And don't bring any clothes...

Daniel.

 

[marlon]

Come here in late November, Clausius; Norway is rather unparadiasical at that time..

The only paradise in Europe (at least to my knowledge) is Toscana or Switzerland (well, that is not Europe, but what the heck...). Belgium is not to bad though (especially for health care )

A place that i did not like was Bilbao...

marlon

 

[Clausius2]

Who has voted no?

 

[Joel]

Not me. Only around [insert number of PF members] to go!

And did someone already mention the parlament should in principle get more power with the constitution? That's a good thing.

 

[Integral]

Pardon the thoughts of an ignorant American.

I have always wondered why you couldn't form USE... United States of Europe... After all, each of the countries of Europe has roughly the area and population of an American state. Of course there is the problem of different languages (Just get over it and adapt English as the official language ) Looks like it is finally in the process. Congratulations and Good luck!

 

[Clausius2]

Pardon the thoughts of an ignorant American.

I have always wondered why you couldn't form USE... United States of Europe... After all, each of the countries of Europe has roughly the area and population of an American state. Of course there is the problem of different languages (Just get over it and adapt English as the official language ) Looks like it is finally in the process. Congratulations and Good luck!

The main difference with USA is that here everybody search for his proper profit. Here it doesn't exist such a feeling of union as you have in America. Europe is formed by so many different cultures and countries, and it has been a long tradition and historics of rivality between the main countries (Spain vs UK vs France vs Germany...). Also, there are different religions (although the majority of us are christians). The union you talked about is more difficult here than anywhere. If we are setting up this constitution is not for the desire to live one aside another, but for economic purposes against the dollar.

 

[brewnog]

I'm going to politely ignore Integral's comment...

I hit 'yes'.
It's in our best interests, but only as far as industry and general economy go. However, I refuse to call myself 'European'. The language issue is something which is already overcome by many people on a daily basis, so is not really an issue (esperanto anyone?). The vast culture differences between european nations could serve for mutual benefit; I'd definitely welcome being allowed to bugger off for a kip every afternoon, and I'm always in favour of new additions to my "cheese of the month" routine.

 

[Andy]

I have voted no because i have absolutley no confidence in the EU. I just don't understand why the british are involved with the rest of europe. For quite a few years now we have had a huge deficit of money going out to the EU compared to money coming back to our country, why? I want to go on a HUGE rant about how the EU is bad for britain but i do not have the time to look up the information to back up any arguements. But my main objection is that as far as I am concerned its just the french and the germans trying to takeover europe.

And before anyone says it, I'm not racist I hate everybody.

 

[Chronos]

I have enormous respect for the people of Spain and Belgium. They have integrity and moral fiber. When push comes to shove, they stand up and show courage. I would stand back to back with them in any cause.

 

[Andy]

But what about the french and germans?

 

[Clausius2]

But what about the french and germans?

We know countries like UK and Germany surely have monetary losses due to this stuff. They have to finance poorer countries (nowadays Spain takes money of the german wallet) but it is also true that there is a shared benefit in all this: global commerce, exportations, importations, technology exchange...). I am not going to deny that there are few nations which drive economically the EU and supports everybody, and I am not going to deny that Spain is not one of these. If you decide to vote NO for economic issues, no problem at all. I understand it. Anyway, UK have not seem interested to be european never, because you always have an eye on the other edge of the Atlantic.

About what happen with french and germans, they seem a bit frustrated for being on the background of the world scene, being hidden by USA. That frustration leads to unbelievable, stupid and false behaviors against USA. They seem friends sometimes, but enemies another times. It has enhanced a lack of credibility on them in Europe. You could say: hey! Spain is doing the same!. And I'd say: not quite. The government of Spain has changed, and with it the politics. The main point with france and germany governments is that they are the same who some months ago where fighting against Bush, and that shows an extraordinary hypocrisy.

 

[Andy]

I would vote yes, but every article i see about the EU constitution says that the UK will loose its right to decide what it wants to do. And the people that will get to decide what each country does are the european parliment, which is pretty much controlled by the french and germans. If they wheren't running the show i would probably be for it.

 

[Chronos]

But what about the french and germans?

Germany has serious economical and political issues. Reintegrating east germany is their priority, and that is entirely understandable. France, on the other hand, likes to play politics. They are an economic power and keep reminding everyone in the EU of that fact. I find that annoying. Just about every other nation in europe, not to mention the USA, has bent over backwards to help them - they seem to take that for granted.

 

[Gokul43201]

Hey, you could all speak Esperanto !

I'd pick YES if it were fair for me to vote here (seeing as how I'm not European).

 

[russ_watters]

The main difference with USA is that here everybody search for his proper profit. Here it doesn't exist such a feeling of union as you have in America. Europe is formed by so many different cultures and countries, and it has been a long tradition and historics of rivality between the main countries (Spain vs UK vs France vs Germany...). Also, there are different religions (although the majority of us are christians). The union you talked about is more difficult here than anywhere. If we are setting up this constitution is not for the desire to live one aside another, but for economic purposes against the dollar.

Nevertheless, if nationalism hadn't died after WWII (yes, I know it is still twitching in a few places), such things as we are seeing today wouldn't be possible. And one of the keys to the US is the idea that national identity and cultural or ethnic identity do not necessarily have to be the same thing. Europe is moving in that direction and I forsee that within my lifetime (I'm 29), there will be a "United States of Europe." You're already almost halfway there: near the level of the US's first attempt at a government, a confederation of independent states.

As for the question, I don't know enough of the specifics to vote, though I will say that in general I think the consolidation of Europe is a good thing (is that surprising to hear from an American - and a republican at that?).

 

[Andy]

If it does happen i will move to australia.

 

[brewnog]

I forsee that within my lifetime (I'm 29), there will be a "United States of Europe."

No there bloody well won't! The EEC and common currency are one thing (well obviously they're two things) but as for becoming a single nation, there's so much opposition in the public domain for such a precedent that it would just not work.

You're already almost halfway there: near the level of the US's first attempt at a government, a confederation of independent states.

Not nearly halfway there. For 90% of people, cultural identity is far more important a consideration than any economic or political issue, it's these cultural differences which would need to be bridged for European countries to exist as one nation. I know it might sound like a trivial issue since there is a high degree of cooperation between the separate countries already, but I really think it's a move which would not be welcomed by many people.

If it does happen i will move to australia

And I'll be sat next to you on the plane (although I may be moaning about Southerners!).

 

[spender]

About what happen with french and germans, they seem a bit frustrated for being on the background of the world scene, being hidden by USA. That frustration leads to unbelievable, stupid and false behaviors against USA. They seem friends sometimes, but enemies another times. It has enhanced a lack of credibility on them in .

I would not call stupid refusing to go to war against defensless nation ! it is wise and shows maturity !

 

[Clausius2]

I would vote yes, but every article i see about the EU constitution says that the UK will loose its right to decide what it wants to do.

Man, the union of Europe must be consolidated upon the fact that nobody could do what he want. That's the democracy.

As for the question, I don't know enough of the specifics to vote, though I will say that in general I think the consolidation of Europe is a good thing (is that surprising to hear from an American - and a republican at that?).

Nice comment, taking into account it comes from an american as you said.

And I'll be sat next to you on the plane (although I may be moaning about Southerners!).

Right, go there both. For this project it is necessary ideas of sharing powers and skills, and not trying to maintain your fences as you had a castle into it. That behavior is negative because it enhances that everybody is reactive to the union, thinking they are going to loose some cultural property. Keep it cool, because nobody is going to enter in England to change your way of life. You should see it as an strategic union.

I would not call stupid refusing to go to war against defensless nation ! it is wise and shows maturity !

The fairness or not of Iraq's war is not going to be discussed by me here. There have been a lot of threads about it. Anyway, I call it again an act of hypocrisy. If France and Germany were swearing against Bush some time ago, how it is possible that now (AFTER Bush has been elected again!) Chirac and Schröeder simile Bush like they are picking up with him?, approving now the democratization of Iraq when they were criticizing it some weeks ago?. I would be ashamed if I live in these countries.

At least Spain voted for Zapatero knowing that withdrawing the troops was in his electoral program. So that, although I am not agree with that, Zapatero and Spain acted with coherency.

 

[brewnog]

Keep it cool, because nobody is going to enter in England to change your way of life. You should see it as an strategic union.

Absolutely. I do see it this way, (I voted 'yes'), but many won't, and it's the very real threat of having to compromise on cultural issues which will detract many people from such a move. Also, I think we would be invaded by beurocrats forcing us to sell our beer in litres, our land in hectares and to measure our roads in miles. Small things, but these are the things that the majority of people value.

As someone (possibly yourself) was saying at the beginning of this thread, there's an awful lot of rivalry between our nations. The Spanish fishing in our waters, the French not buying our beef, the Belgians telling us our cucumbers are too bendy, these are just examples of the friction which can occur between our nations on a macro scale. No matter how well we can get on with our neighbours as individuals (and for most of the time, we do) we, as 'Europeans' tend to resent various aspects about other nations.

It's not a case of disliking foriegn individuals (and let's face it, as individuals we europeans usually get on just fine), but I am certain that there would be so much resistance just from the suggestion of a European State that it just wouldn't happen.

 

[russ_watters]

Nice comment, taking into account it comes from an american as you said.

I highlighted the fact that I'm an American because of the perspective: a unified Europe is, at face value, bad for America, which is why it may be surprising that I consider it a positive thing (for Europeans, that is).

And please, guys - don't pretend that Americans wouldn't understand the primary issue here (fear of loss of sovereignty). We absolutely do: our first government failed due to sovereignty issues. Or the secondary issue (cultural differences): our country continues to struggle over its cultural identity.

Not nearly halfway there. For 90% of people, cultural identity is far more important a consideration than any economic or political issue, it's these cultural differences which would need to be bridged for European countries to exist as one nation.

Closer than you think (structurally): Article 2, The Articles of Confederation:

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html

description: http://bensguide.gpo.gov/9-12/documents/articles/

-Congress (the central government) was made up of delegates chosen by the states and could conduct foreign affairs, make treaties, declare war, maintain an army and a navy, coin money, and establish post offices. However, measures passed by Congress had to be approved by 9 of the 13 states.
-Congress was severely limited in its powers. It could not raise money by collecting taxes; it had no control over foreign commerce; it could pass laws but could not force the states to comply with them. Thus, the government was dependent on the willingness of the various states to carry out its measures, and often the states refused to cooperate.
-The articles were virtually impossible to amend, so problems could not be corrected.

In many ways, the Europeans have already surpassed our first effort.

In any case, if the US can teach Europeans anything, its that cultural differences are utterly insignificant if the citizens have a common desire for peace, prosperity, and freedom. And again - with the near-death of nationalism, Europeans have come a long way. Its staggering, in fact - its only 60 years since the last world war.

 

[brewnog]

Europeans have come a long way.

Heh, you make us sound like naughty children or cavemen or something!

Anyway, I completely agree with you in terms of the real issues being relatively trivial. The 'primary' and 'secondary' issues you highlighted are the *real* issues which need to be considered, but it's not that simple.

In order for this to happen (and indeed to work), the people have to support it. There are so many people here who are (for example) intent on the UK having nothing at all to do with Europe, let alone having a status quo on the current situation. Convincing people that the constitution is NOT going to affect their daily lives in a negative way is nigh impossible. Admittedly, most of these people are sceptical of anything containing the E word because they got screwed over with decimalisation and the common market. Call them stubborn, call them paranoid, they'll still be the spanner in the works.

 

[russ_watters]

Heh, you make us sound like naughty children or cavemen or something!

I didn't mean to sound condescending, its just that the European political landscape has changed much more significantly in the past 60 years (or 100 years) than America's, owing to the two world wars and their offspring.