Everything is a Computer

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Since no one seems to care that everything is different, I figured I would say something slightly less obvious: Everything is a Computer.

I am, of course, speaking in the very metaphorical and abstact sense of a computer being any object that takes in a certain set of inputs, and, based on a specific set of internal rules, results in a determined output.

Basically, every object in the physical universe fits this definition, therefore, everything is a computer.
 

Kerrie

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judgement, opinions, feelings, intution are not a part of our current definition of a computer...unless you don't have any of these traits, you might be considered a computer...
 
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Perhaps you could say that everything is an informational process, but 'to compute' means something quite specific. It is to perform various functions with a symbolic language. Apparently the brain uses no such language and works in a different way. Don't think rocks and trees use a symbolic language either.

You might be interested in this:

God Is the Machine
 

FZ+

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It is to perform various functions with a symbolic language. Apparently the brain uses no such language and works in a different way. Don't think rocks and trees use a symbolic language either.
Erm... I am not sure about that. In reality, computers do not really do their computing in a symbolic language, they do it in the flow of charge between semiconductors. You can also say that humans use a symbolic language to think, as most of us "think in words."

I think the real distinction is that computers have a use/task/purpose connotation.
 

russ_watters

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The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle put the final nail in the coffin of determinism.
 
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everything is a computor

if everything that has an action has a response. then you would say a computor needs human imputs to factor the question
In other words a computor by itself has no fuction with out the programmer. so how could this tool be used as the controller and us the game?
 
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Re: everything is a computor

Originally posted by mikelus

In other words a computor by itself has no fuction with out the programmer. so how could this tool be used as the controller and us the game?
It is easy to create 'open' functions. In otherwords, a function that doesn't finish in a known amount of time. Like solving the game of chess: assuming it is possible, how long would it take? If you create a solar powered computer programed with an algorithm to solve this problem and it took a million years, it could continue to funtion long after its origonal programmers became extinct... If a computers programed object was to 'control' its creators, well... isn't that the programming of every normal teenager? And if the object is to 'control the masses', well... aren't there a lot of governments interested in that program... and if the goal is to influence people to purchase certain products... wouldn't every corporation be interested in that program?
 
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Originally posted by russ_watters
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle put the final nail in the coffin of determinism.
That is a very dramatic statement but not exactly true. The Uncertainty Principle does not contradict a deterministic universe. Uncertainty rules out the possiblity of we humans, being limited and partial observers, being able to actually predict, with Certainty, the future, since we can never know all the initial variables exactly.

We humans, more generally, we observers, can never know all the factors that determine the Universe. That does not mean that the Universe is not determined by variables which we are incapable of determining.
 
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Originally posted by Kerrie
judgement, opinions, feelings, intution are not a part of our current definition of a computer...unless you don't have any of these traits, you might be considered a computer...
yes... but if there is a computer C with normal computer functions and special X, Y, Z properties... wouldn't C still be a computer - and more than a computer?
 
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Originally posted by FZ+
Erm... I am not sure about that. In reality, computers do not really do their computing in a symbolic language, they do it in the flow of charge between semiconductors.
Yes and that flow of charge is always in discreet units because they are using a binary language.

Originally posted by FZ+
You can also say that humans use a symbolic language to think, as most of us "think in words."
'Thinking in words' is a very high level function of the brain. It is a function or product of the brain not the coding language used to produce it.
 
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Originally posted by ogb p
That is a very dramatic statement but not exactly true. The Uncertainty Principle does not contradict a deterministic universe. Uncertainty rules out the possiblity of we humans, being limited and partial observers, being able to actually predict, with Certainty, the future, since we can never know all the initial variables exactly.

We humans, more generally, we observers, can never know all the factors that determine the Universe. That does not mean that the Universe is not determined by variables which we are incapable of determining.
This is something I've been wondering about for a while. Is the Uncertainty Principle consistent with a universe which has parts with a discreet, precise existence, but information about which is fuzzy because the only way to get this information is by deflecting other particles (eg photons) off them. Thus there is not only a maximum resolution to this information but the aquisition of the information changes the state of the particle being observed. Do you have a reference for this?
 
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Originally posted by Kerrie
judgement, opinions, feelings, intution are not a part of our current definition of a computer...unless you don't have any of these traits, you might be considered a computer...
The human brain does not 'compute' it works differently. A computer could perhaps one day have those qualities and still be a computer.
 

FZ+

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Yes and that flow of charge is always in discreet units because they are using a binary language.
So is the pulses of the neurones in the brain? What I mean to say that the idea of language itself doesn't really have that much of a significance if we go down to the level of how things actually work. We can't really tell the difference.
 
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You can't tell the difference between a person and a computer?

I don't believe you.

Or you can't tell the difference between being a person and being a computer?

How would you know?

A brain does not work in binary. A neural net does not work in binary. A brain does not compute. A brain works in a fundamentally different way.

Reference: 'A Universe of Consciousness' G. M. Edelman & G Tononi, published 2000, p47-49
 
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russ_watters

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Originally posted by ogb p
That is a very dramatic statement but not exactly true. The Uncertainty Principle does not contradict a deterministic universe. Uncertainty rules out the possiblity of we humans, being limited and partial observers, being able to actually predict, with Certainty, the future, since we can never know all the initial variables exactly.

We humans, more generally, we observers, can never know all the factors that determine the Universe. That does not mean that the Universe is not determined by variables which we are incapable of determining.
No, you are incorrect about what the HUP says. The unvierse has a fundamental graininess to it beyond which things can only be predicted according to probability functions. It has nothing at all to do with the capabilities of humans or number of variables involved. We can't MEASURE an exact position and velocity because a particle doesn't HAVE an exact position and velocity.
Originally posted by Mumeishi
This is something I've been wondering about for a while. Is the Uncertainty Principle consistent with a universe which has parts with a discreet, precise existence, but information about which is fuzzy because the only way to get this information is by deflecting other particles (eg photons) off them. Thus there is not only a maximum resolution to this information but the aquisition of the information changes the state of the particle being observed. Do you have a reference for this?
HUP is often described in that way (bouncing a photon off something to detect it changes its energy), but it is a mischaracterization. It is more fundamental than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_Principle
The uncertainty principle is sometimes erroneously explained by claiming that the measurement of position necessarily disturbs a particle's momentum. Heisenberg himself offered this explanation initially. Disturbance plays no part, however, since the principle even applies if position is measured in one copy of the system and momentum is measured in another, identical one. It is more accurate to say that the particle is a wave, not a point-like object, and does not have a well-defined simultaneous position and momentum.
 
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We can't MEASURE an exact position and velocity because a particle doesn't HAVE an exact position and velocity.
I can accept that within the framework of theory, but I don't believe it is experimentally provable: the only data you have is what we CAN MEASURE.
 
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Disturbance plays no part, however, since the principle even applies if position is measured in one copy of the system and momentum is measured in another, identical one.
Not sure I follow that logic. Different sorts of measurement could disturb it in different ways and give different results couldn't they?


It is more accurate to say that the particle is a wave, not a point-like object, and does not have a well-defined simultaneous position and momentum.
OK. So its a small wave (a superstring even, which essentially is a small wave).There's nothing too wierd about that is there? It being emitted and absorbed in discreet quanta doesn't make it a particle. (Although clearly there is some fundamentally wierd stuff going on with quantum mechanics) But isn't this 'wave-particle duality' a red-herring?
 
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Originally posted by ogb p
I can accept that within the framework of theory, but I don't believe it is experimentally provable: the only data you have is what we CAN MEASURE.
I agree.

How can we 'see' anything as small as a photon clearly when the only we have to see it is by bumping other photons off it?

Its like a blind man feeling around with only the aid of a log. (its a strong blind man ok!) He might conclude that the world had no fine details, but would he be justified?
 
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Originally posted by russ_watters
No, you are incorrect about what the HUP says. The unvierse has a fundamental graininess to it beyond which things can only be predicted according to probability functions. It has nothing at all to do with the capabilities of humans or number of variables involved.
Ok, after more thought I will agree with you that HUP does not state that it is based on the limitations of human beings. I did not mean to say that, but after re-reading my post I can easily see how it could be interpreted that way.

What I meant to say is that HUP does not contradict the possiblity of other theorectical models, including deterministic ones, because it is a theory created by humans and verified by experimental data that is ultimately collected by humans.

If you begin with the assumption that there are objects in the universe whose exact position in time and space are unknowable to humans, then the next logical step in dealing with those objects would be to create a mathematical model in which exact points don't exist.

Determinism, as theory, is still alive because the Classical Model of Physics, which is deterministic, is still used extensively in engineering and mechanics; there are many scales on which quantum effects and relativity are not worth computing.

If you are asserting that HUP is the ultimate reality, then I believe you would be making the same mistake that Determinists made 100 years ago.
 
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Its like a blind man feeling around with only the aid of a log. (its a strong blind man ok!) He might conclude that the world had no fine details, but would he be justified?
That is a great analogy!
 

Glenn

ogb p,

Check out an area of study called "Digital Physics".

Here is a link to get you started...

http://digitalphysics.org/


-Glenn
 
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Computer brain

The Brain is imo a computer...there's no evidence to suggest otherwise.
Emotions and feelings can be programmed into a computer.
In contrast to the pc, the brain-computer is designed to be slow in certain respects, but very powerful. It makes up for lack of speed through clever use of algorithmic shortcuts and approximations. These are known as emotions.
Everything we do is based on algorithms. It's hard for us to see, be cause we arent smarter than ourselves.

Heisenberg.doesn't disprove determinism
You can program 'uncertainty' into a pc program if you want to level the playing field. If you aren't happy with standard programmed random number generators, you can produce an externnal randomizer of your own design; perhaps based on a heat cell, and a cat in a box

Tone
 
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I'd say the brain is a computer, but it has a different implementation. and maybe we use it pretty ineffectively.
For example, we solve equations by transforming them to high-level objects which we can "compute" - like the sound of "three", the glyph representation of sixty-nine or a variable named "foo". This is far more inefficient than a raytracer written in JavaScript...
It sure would be cool if we found a way to program ourselves in "brain assembler" or B++, like are our vital kernel processes "hrtbeat.exe" or "vislogd". We'd probably be able to cause stack overflows to ourselves as well... I, for example, keep running into a "division by zero in module <chew.dll,2>".
We have all sorts of utility programs in our brain, like "scanbrain" and "defrag" that run while we're sleeping - dreams are the equivalent of FILE0001.CHK, i.e. stuff we recorded during the day but which was not stored properly to long-time memory...

For example electrons are computers too, but they only support a few functions, like
electron::electron(photon& gamma_ray, positron& rest, particle& catalysator); /* gamma_ray.eKin must be >1.22 MeV, resulting positron is returned via reference parameter */
electron::collide(particle& something);
electron::doPhotonCommunication(particle& something);
the lousy thing doesn't even have a destructor function, afaik...
 
Originally posted by russ_watters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_Principle
The uncertainty principle is sometimes erroneously explained by claiming that the measurement of position necessarily disturbs a particle's momentum. Heisenberg himself offered this explanation initially. Disturbance plays no part, however, since the principle even applies if position is measured in one copy of the system and momentum is measured in another, identical one. It is more accurate to say that the particle is a wave, not a point-like object, and does not have a well-defined simultaneous position and momentum.
I am not a quantum physicist, so I cannot say which is the correct definition, accepted by the general scientific community, and as understood by Heisenberg. I would not trust a wiki source as providing the definitive truth.

That said, this definition does not preclude the possibility of determination. Where in the idea of everything being predetermined cause-and-effect does it say that an object has to exist in one point, or be travelling with only 1 velocity? If "particles" are really waves, then the wave should be able to have difference parts moving with different velocities, just like a macro-scale ocean wave, right?
 
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Whether determination is possible would seem to come from whether we can have a fully accurate description of the wave and whether we have equations to make accurate calculations from that description.

Some philosophers (usually of the New Age, amateur variety) erronously use the UP to demonstrate that there is no external objective reality and everything is mind-dependent.
 

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