Exploring the Relationship Between B and E

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between the electric field (E) and magnetic field (B), focusing on the concepts of permeability and permittivity in free space. Participants examine historical perspectives, analogies between E and H versus E and B, and the implications of these relationships in electromagnetic theory.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the permeability of free space should be inversely proportional to the electric field, similar to the permittivity of free space.
  • Others argue that the permeability of free space is not a measure of resistance to a magnetic field but rather indicates how much space is magnetized in the presence of a magnetic field.
  • A participant references Albert Shadowitz's work, noting that historically, E and H were considered analogous, but it is now accepted that E and B are the analogous quantities, with implications for the constitutive equations.
  • Another participant elaborates on the analogy between E and H in terms of units and ratios, discussing the impedance of the medium and the Poynting vector, while also addressing boundary conditions for electric and magnetic fields.
  • One participant concludes that the relationship between E and B versus E and H remains unresolved, indicating uncertainty in determining which is the true counterpart.
  • A request for numerical values related to the magnetic permeability of aluminum is made, indicating a need for specific material properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between E, B, and H, with no consensus reached on whether E is more closely related to B or H. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the definitions of permeability and permittivity, as well as the historical context of electromagnetic theory that may influence current interpretations.

zeromodz
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Since the permeability of free space is a measure of how free space resists a magnetic field, shouldn't it be inversely proportional like the permittivity of free space with respect to the electric field?

B = μqrsin / 4πr^2
E = q / 4πεr^2
 
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The permeability of free space is NOT a measure of how free space resists a magnetic field.
 


The permeability determines how much space itself is magnetized in the presence of a magnetic field. Since it is less than unity I think of it of like a resistance where the permeability equals zero in ideal space
 


In Albert Shadowitz's The Electromagnetic Field, page 319-320, (you can find it at google.books http://books.google.com/books?id=31...resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false") it's explained that

"When the theory of electricity and magnetism was first being developed it was believed that the vectors E and H were analogous to each other."

That made the constitutive equations D = epsilon E and B = mu H analogous.

But, "Today it is generally accepted that E and B are the analogous quantities, rather than E and H. For E is produced by any kind of charge, free or bound, just as B is caused by any kind of current, conventional or bound. D and H, on the other hand, are only produced by free charge and conventional current, respectively. From this point of view it is unfortunate that epsilon0 and mu0 were placed in opposite positions in the two defining equations."
 
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shoestring said:
In Albert Shadowitz's The Electromagnetic Field, page 319-320, (you can find it at google.books http://books.google.com/books?id=31...resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false") it's explained that

"When the theory of electricity and magnetism was first being developed it was believed that the vectors E and H were analogous to each other."

That made the constitutive equations D = epsilon E and B = mu H analogous.

But, "Today it is generally accepted that E and B are the analogous quantities, rather than E and H. For E is produced by any kind of charge, free or bound, just as B is caused by any kind of current, conventional or bound. D and H, on the other hand, are only produced by free charge and conventional current, respectively. From this point of view it is unfortunate that epsilon0 and mu0 were placed in opposite positions in the two defining equations."

E & H are analogous in 2 ways. First, E is in units of V/m, while H is in A/m. The ratio E/H is V/A or ohms. The E/H ratio of an e/m wave is the impedance of the medium. Also, E X H, the cross product, has units W/m^2. This is the radiated power per area, aka "Poynting Vector".

If we examine electric & magnetic fields in the boundary region between differing media, we get the following. The normal components of the B fields in the 2 media, Bn1 & Bn2, are equal. The normal components of the D fields in each medium are either equal or they differ by a mere constant, i.e. Dn1 - Dn2 = rho_s. The "rho_s" is the surface charge density. The B & D quantities behave in a similar fashion.

But the tangential fields at a boundary displays a different property. The tangential E field components are equal for materials 1 & 2, i.e. Et1 = Et2. Also, Ht1 = Ht2. So E & H behave analogously.

Based on the above, there is compelling reason to regard E & H as a pair, likewise w/ B & D. But hold on. The Lorentz force equation is as follows:

F = q*(E + (u X B)). Here, the Lorentz force is determined by E for the electric part, & B for magnetic. Hence a case can be made tying E to B.

So the conclusion is that there is no conclusion. Is E the counterpart of B or H? I don't think we have an answer.

Claude
 
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I need some information of magnetic permeability of aluminium material,

its numerical value.
while my other velocities are in m/s, and density is kg/m^3
thanks
 

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