Fermat's Principle Explained by Feynman

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Fermat's principle as explained by Richard Feynman in his QED lectures, particularly focusing on the implications of path amplitudes in light propagation and the relationship between optics and quantum mechanics. Participants explore the theoretical underpinnings of light behavior, including reflections and the nature of photon emission, while also referencing historical contributions from other physicists.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that Feynman demonstrates how removing the amplitude for a path near the path-of-least-time significantly affects the total amplitude, raising questions about how this relates to the perception of light direction.
  • Others reference historical figures like Augustin Fresnel and Louis Victor de Broglie, discussing their contributions to the understanding of light and its behavior, particularly in relation to Fermat's principle and the phase relationship of paths.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the quantum aspects of the discussion and requests clarification on the concepts presented.
  • Another participant emphasizes that while quantum phenomena govern photon emission, the propagation of light can be understood through classical optics, highlighting the distinction between macro and microphysics.
  • Concerns are raised about the limitations of classical optics, such as the width of optical paths and the effects of diffraction, suggesting that historical figures may not have fully accounted for modern understandings of light behavior.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion features multiple competing views and interpretations regarding the relationship between quantum mechanics and classical optics, as well as the historical context of Fermat's principle. There is no consensus on the explanations provided or the implications of Feynman's interpretation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in understanding related to the historical context of optics and quantum mechanics, as well as the unresolved nature of certain mathematical and conceptual aspects of light propagation.

dEdt
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In his QED lectures, Feynman demonstrates, in a way, how Fermat's principle follows from adding up the amplitudes for all possible paths, and then noting that removing the amplitude for a path near the path-of-least-time from the calculation will have a greater effect on the total amplitude than if some other path were removed. But how does this explain why we see light as coming from a direction corresponding to the path-of-least-time? If the situation were laser light reflecting off a mirror, the eye can't remove sections of the mirror, so how would the eye know that removing the amplitude for a path near the path-of-least-time will have a big effect on the total amplitude?
 
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dEdt said:
In his QED lectures, Feynman demonstrates, in a way, how Fermat's principle follows from adding up the amplitudes for all possible paths, and then noting that removing the amplitude for a path near the path-of-least-time from the calculation will have a greater effect on the total amplitude than if some other path were removed. But how does this explain why we see light as coming from a direction corresponding to the path-of-least-time? If the situation were laser light reflecting off a mirror, the eye can't remove sections of the mirror, so how would the eye know that removing the amplitude for a path near the path-of-least-time will have a big effect on the total amplitude?
Augustin Fresnel (1788-1827) had already demonstrated that in the years 1815-1821.
And Louis Victor de Broglie has explained in 1924 why it is true also with fermions, like the electron : because the real path(s) is/are in phase accord with its/their close neighbours.
So Broglie gave the physical reason of the union between optics and mechanics, made mathematically by W. R. Hamilton in 1834 : the iso-action surfaces are also iso-phase.

I wonder whether Feynman gave or did not give the width of the Fermat spindle, depending on the wavelength and the distance between emittor and absorber. I bet he did not.
 
Hmmm, sorry, that was pretty confusing. My understanding of quantum-anything is at a minimum :)

Would you be able to clarify that for someone as ignorant as I?
 
ralqs said:
Hmmm, sorry, that was pretty confusing. My understanding of quantum-anything is at a minimum :)

Would you be able to clarify that for someone as ignorant as I?
You do not need to know it is "quantic". You only need to know it is optic. In the example given above by dEdt, there are lots of photons in a bunch. Only the emission of photons in the laser depends on quantic phenomena, not the propagation at all. And in his eye, only the activation of the opsine by a photon is quantic again, with a yield of more or less 25 %. Up to the retina, the phenomenon of propagation remains in the field of optics.

And in physical optics, whose laws were given by Thomas Young and Augustin Fresnel, it was already known that no real optical path can be of null width. Remember diffraction. Remember the maximum theoretical angular discriminating power of a telescope for a given entry pupil, for a given wavelength of light.

And what is the difference between the macrophysics, the only one known by Fresnel in 1821, and microphysics ? In microphysics you are interested on the destiny of ONE photon, which has ONE absorber at the end. So you have both geometrical constraints : by the emitter, and by the absorber. Plus of course the constraints on frequency, phase and polarization ; of course nor Huyghens, nor Snellius, nor Descartes, nor Fermat, nor Young, nor Fresnel could know these last constraints, in their time.
 
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