Find 1 RPM Motor for "Barn Door" Project!

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a suitable motor for a "barn door" project intended for tracking stars. Participants explore various motor types, including DC motors and stepper motors, and discuss the necessary specifications, such as speed (1 RPM) and torque requirements.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks a 1 RPM motor and inquires about the feasibility of using a gearbox with a high reduction ratio, such as 6000:1, to achieve the desired speed.
  • Another participant suggests that a 6000 RPM motor would be needed to pair with a 6000:1 gearbox to achieve 1 RPM.
  • Some participants recommend considering stepper motors for their ability to operate at various speeds and provide positional accuracy.
  • Concerns are raised about potential vibrations caused by stepper motors, particularly in optical systems, with references to their operation modes that may induce jittery motion.
  • One participant mentions that the torque issue may be mitigated by the large gear reduction, provided the mount is balanced.
  • Another participant suggests that a falling weight could be an alternative for smooth star tracking, while also noting the potential for friction and stiction issues.
  • There is a discussion about the specifics of using a stepper motor, including the number of steps required to achieve 1 RPM with a 1.8-degree stepper motor.
  • One participant clarifies that a 200-count stepper motor moves 1/200 of a circle per step, which complicates direct driving of the telescope without additional gearing.
  • Suggestions for using a threaded rod and moving nut for smoother operation are also mentioned.
  • Antibacklash gearing is proposed as a consideration for the design.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the suitability of stepper motors versus traditional DC motors with gearboxes. There is no consensus on the best approach, as concerns about vibrations and torque requirements remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of balancing the mount and the potential impact of gear ratios on performance. The discussion includes various assumptions about motor specifications and the mechanical setup required for effective star tracking.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in amateur astronomy, mechanical design, or motor selection for precision applications may find this discussion relevant.

Cremer
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Hello all.

This is my first post as I need some help.

I'm building a "barn Door" project which I'm sure you all know is a device to track the stars.

With the measurements I've built it to I need to drive the screw at 1 RPM.

I'm finding it very hard to get a 1 RPM DC motor either 230v or 12v.

Does anyone know of a source?

If I went the route of a gearbox of say 6000:1 what speed motor would I
need to attach to this gearbox to obtain 1 RPM.

Problem is I would like ample torque as well.

Hope you can help.

Cremer
 
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Cremer said:
With the measurements I've built it to I need to drive the screw at 1 RPM.

I'm finding it very hard to get a 1 RPM DC motor either 230v or 12v.

Does anyone know of a source?

I would look at www.globalspec.com a search through the AC or DC motors. You'll never find a regular motor that runs at 1 rpm, you'll have to get a motor with a gearbox on it that reduces the shaft speed to your desired value.

Cremer said:
If I went the route of a gearbox of say 6000:1 what speed motor would I
need to attach to this gearbox to obtain 1 RPM.

A 6000rpm motor of course.

Cremer said:
Problem is I would like ample torque as well.

Torque is a more difficult issue, and will depend on the geometry and weight of the mechanism being moved.
 
Search on Gear Motors. You may also try Synchronous Gear Motors.
 
A better choice for this kind of application would be a stepper motor. You can turn them at pretty much any speed and they will be very accurate positionally. I would look around at suppliers to see if they have anything that will fit your specs.
 
Note that the problem of torque is largely self-solving due to the need for a large gear reduction for speed control, as long as the mount is going to be balanced.
 
It would seem like a stepper motor might tend to excite vibrations in the structure, not a good thing for an optical system.
 
Thanks guys and I'll look through those sites.

I did consider stepper motors but someone said that the steps to incite slight movement just like dr D has mentioned.
 
Dr.D said:
It would seem like a stepper motor might tend to excite vibrations in the structure, not a good thing for an optical system.
Stepper motors are used in highly accurate machining centers and the like. I have never heard of an induced vibration duer to one either. I am not quite sure how that would happen.
 
Telescope vibration, telescope motor vibration.

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/vibration.html"

"Stepper motors snap from step to step when operating in fullstep or halfstep mode. This causes a jittery motion in the eyepiece that can be quite objectionable..."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #11
FredGarvin said:
Stepper motors are used in highly accurate machining centers and the like. I have never heard of an induced vibration duer to one either. I am not quite sure how that would happen.

Machining centers are usually very compact and stiff. Telescopes and other optical systems are often quite extensive (long dimensions) and necessarily not very stiff (too much weight) so that they cannot enjoy the stiffness of a machining center.
 
  • #12
Phrak said:
"Stepper motors snap from step to step when operating in fullstep or halfstep mode. This causes a jittery motion in the eyepiece that can be quite objectionable..."
Not by the time it's gone through a 600:1 gearbox!

Have you considered just a falling weight - historically it's worked pretty well for smooth star tracking.
 
  • #13
mgb_phys said:
Not by the time it's gone through a 600:1 gearbox!

Have you considered just a falling weight - historically it's worked pretty well for smooth star tracking.

The only thing the 600:1 gear box will add to the system is inertia. The frequency of the pulsations will go through the gear box unmodified, so that if it excites a structural resonance, you still have a problem.

The falling weight idea is a good one, provided that friction does not consume to much energy and does not develop stiction induced vibration.
 
  • #14
So say I did use a stepper motor...

I have a 1.8 degree 200 stepper motor which means that one step = 0.06 degree.

How do I get it to turn exactly 1 RPM

360 degree divide by 0.06 degree = 6000 steps.

I think I need help
 
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  • #15
If you have a 200count stepper that bounces 1/2 step you are going to need a very tight gearbox for that frequency of movement to transmit through to the output shaft.

With a hanging weight you can always overcome friction (there's always more power available!) stiction could be a problem depending on what materials and machining services you have available.

OP - how big an instrument are you planning?
 
  • #16
Cremer said:
So say I did use a stepper motor...
I have a 1.8 degree 200 stepper motor which means that one step = 0.06 degree.
360 degree divide by 0.06 degree = 6000 steps.
I think you have got a little confused.
A 200count stepper moves 1/200 of a circle on each step, ie 200steps for a full circle or 1.8deg/step.

You can't drive your telescope directly because on each step it would jump 1.8deg.
Normally you would have a large arc with gear teeth on the edge and a worm gear so that one complete rotation of the worm gear moved the arc 1 tooth ( perhaps 0.05deg) then it's easy to run the motor at some reasonable number of rpm to give exactly the correct rotation speed and the whole thing is fairly smooth

An easier arrangement is to use a threaded rod and a moving nut attached to your telescope

tnt_alt.jpg


Description of a small system here http://home.att.net/~jsstars/slomo/slomo.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #17
  • #18
Don't use a curved rod - use a straight one and change the motor speed in software (trivial with a stepper)
For a camera you don't need sub-arc second tracking accuracy you can probably just have one speed for each 5-10deg altitude intervals.

In engineering the thing is also called a 'sine bar' because the change in the screw length is the sin of the angle.
 
  • #19
You may also consider antibacklash gearing.
 

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