Finished PhD -- it's been one year and can't find a job

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The discussion centers around the challenges faced by a recent PhD graduate in experimental low energy physics who is struggling to secure a postdoc position despite having published papers and strong references. The individual has applied for over 100 jobs in various fields but often receives feedback indicating they are overqualified or lack relevant experience. Many participants highlight the oversaturation of PhD holders in the job market, particularly in the UK, and suggest rebranding skills for broader job opportunities, including programming and data analysis. There's a sentiment that the academic job market is highly competitive, with many qualified candidates vying for limited positions. The conversation emphasizes the importance of adapting resumes and exploring alternative career paths outside academia.
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Hi everyone,

I completed my PhD in experimental low energy physics over a year ago and I still cannot find a postdoc position in my field. I have three papers published about my work, and passed my viva with minor corrections, and have good references, but again I just cannot find a postdoc position or indeed a position elsewhere. It has been so bad I decided to get a job driving a bus for my local public transport company around two months ago. I did not mention my PhD or degree qualifications when I applied I only mentioned the casual/part time work I had done throughout my time at university. To be honest I am so tired of applying for positions and getting told I was unsuccessfull that staying as a bus driver seems a real option to me now, which is not too bad as I am actually enjoying doing this job.

There are just so many postdocs out there that stay postdocs for five plus years that new PhD graduates like me find it hard to be offered positions, hence, to me it seems a complete waste of time doing my PhD.

Anyway I feel that people looking to do a PhD should be told the truth about the job prospects of PhD graduates becoming postdocs.


Anyone else being in this situation ? I mean not being able to find a job after graduating ?
 
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I think there's a secret organization of physicists trying to encourage people not to go into the field since there is an over supply of PhDs (or there was) compared to academic jobs available. This organization goes online and makes threads like this.

I'm not sure how likely that is... It is convincing though.Anyways, with a physics PhD you can at least apply to the HUGE variety of national labs. Bell Labs, Jet Propulsion Lab, etc... You could be AT LEAST a research assistant anywhere. You could even work in R&D for practically ANY company. Is it really that hard?
 
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I should say I am based in the UK, and I have applied for over 100 jobs in fields such as engineering, energy, statistics, computer programming, graduate scheme's, teacher, and even lab assistants at high schools, and on the rare ocassions that I get a reply, I am told that I am over qualified, or have too much experience or not enough. There just seems to be no one interested in what I have done or the skills I have gained at university.

Yet all I hear about in the press is business complaining that there is a shortage of people taking physics and engineering at university; very confusing to me, but what can I do. Like I have said, I have just about gave up on applying for jobs suited to my qualifications.
 
jacksonshana said:
Yet all I hear about in the press is business complaining that there is a shortage of people taking physics and engineering at university; very confusing to me, but what can I do. Like I have said, I have just about gave up on applying for jobs suited to my qualifications.

Business doesn't really ever have a reason to say there are too many science and engineering grads, do they? The more there are, the cheaper they are. All trained on the taxpayer and student's expense.

I didnt get a PhD, but no career for me either.
 
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To the OP:

Since you have mentioned that you are based in the UK, have you actually considered emigrating and working in another country (either as a postdoc in physics, or working in some cognate field)? Because from what I understand, the British economy is in a deep recession, with little prospect for much job growth. And besides, the number of research opportunities in the UK will be limited even in comparison to what might be available in the US, just as an example.

I would also suggest that you spend your current time while working on tailoring your resume specifically to positions that you think you have the technical capabilities for, as well as retooling your technical capabilities in such areas as computer programming/software development or statistical/data analysis (2 areas that many former physics graduates have ended up pursuing). Also remember that there is a difference between preparing a resume and preparing a CV, so talk to someone about having your resume reviewed -- I cannot stress the importance of really tailoring your resume to highlight your specific skills, as opposed to your education as a PhD in physics.

But do not give up looking -- I have spent a period of 8 months of unemployment in between jobs (and this was prior to financial crisis of 2008), so I can with your difficulties.
 
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This is kind of depressing. All I can say to OP is that you're not selling out by going into industry.

"Perhaps even more now than then, graduate education is an extended adolescence during which highly intelligent young people see their world shrink to fit the dimensions of their advisor’s laboratory. With their identities bound to the outcome of the thesis project, graduate students are socialized to view other options (teaching, industry, even changing to another type of work altogether) with contempt. Wanting a decent wage and meaningful work that occupies, say, only 50 hours per week are considered signs of selling out."
 
I was in a very similar situation- after my phd I passed on a postdoc because I wanted more stability. I was never unemployed, but I did spend more than a year working as a bartender while searching for other work. My advice is as follows

1. learn a new field/rebrand yourself- no one cares how much physics you know, find something useful and learn it. If you already know something useful (can you program?) emphasize it and let the physics stuff quietly slide to the back of your resume. I spent much of my time working through statistics, machine learning and programming references. Eventually an unexpected opportunity came up, but I was prepared to take it because I had been learning as much as I could about machine learning.

2. There are negative associations with phd holders- be preemptive in your resume/cover letter. That myth of a scientist shortage? That means that every employer is suspicious that you'll jump ship to a science job very quickly. You COULD try to explain that there aren't really many science jobs, but you'll likely come off sounding a bit bitter. Its best to come up with positive aspects that draw you into this new field, and away from physics. "I was frustrated by the lack of real-world problems", or whatever.

Also, they coupled with the idea of shortage, they may have wildly unrealistic ideas of what a physicist makes. I've heard anecdotes of phds applying for high 5 figure jobs and being asked "why would you take a pay cut to change fields?" I'm not sure how to combat this, but its worth thinking about.

3. Find a support system to help you cope. I was applying for jobs for literally years, and it very much weighs on you, especially as an overachieving person. After being successful all the way through to the end of a phd, the feeling that you've done everything right and still don't have the job you want can be really hard to deal with. Find people who understand and can support you.

My family, for instance, didn't understand how someone with a phd in physics could possibly have trouble finding something, and so on top of the job hunt I was constantly dealing with accusations of being lazy about the job search. A grandparent even suggested I get into AA (apparently she confused working in a bar with going to a bar). I met another physics phd at a job interview, and we met up once a week at Starbucks to commiserate and swap job leads. I think without that, I would have gone insane before finding a job.

Anyways, with a physics PhD you can at least apply to the HUGE variety of national labs. Bell Labs, Jet Propulsion Lab, etc... You could be AT LEAST a research assistant anywhere. You could even work in R&D for practically ANY company. Is it really that hard?

This is unresearched advice- the thing to remember is that a physics phd is a specialist. Some national labs (btw, Bell Labs isn't a national lab, and hasn't done basic physics research since 2008, so you should strike that from your list- the story of Bell labs is being repeated everywhere, which is why no one wants physicists) might need something close to your specialty, but many will not. You might get unlucky, and none will. Even if they want someone with your skill-set, its very competitive- maybe 100 phds applying for each spot.

No one will hire a phd as a research assistant- those jobs are usually for undergraduates, sometimes for masters. A postdoc is like a phd holding research assistant- such jobs are fairly competitive, but the big problem is they don't pay well and they are temporary (~3 years) contracts.

Finally, most private companies do NOT do R&D that requires basic research, and as such they do not hire physicists. Some do, but they want a physics phd who has proven they can do such research during their phd. So if you did condensed matter research on silicon, you can probably step into a job at intel, but otherwise this is a hard transition to make. Most of my phd cohort had to leave science all together to get a job in 'industry.' (think insurance,finance,etc)
 
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These kinds of threads are so depressing. :|
 
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ParticleGrl said:
This is unresearched advice- the thing to remember is that a physics phd is a specialist. Some national labs (btw, Bell Labs isn't a national lab, and hasn't done basic physics research since 2008, so you should strike that from your list- the story of Bell labs is being repeated everywhere, which is why no one wants physicists) might need something close to your specialty, but many will not. You might get unlucky, and none will. Even if they want someone with your skill-set, its very competitive- maybe 100 phds applying for each spot.

No one will hire a phd as a research assistant- those jobs are usually for undergraduates, sometimes for masters. A postdoc is like a phd holding research assistant- such jobs are fairly competitive, but the big problem is they don't pay well and they are temporary (~3 years) contracts.

Finally, most private companies do NOT do R&D that requires basic research, and as such they do not hire physicists. Some do, but they want a physics phd who has proven they can do such research during their phd. So if you did condensed matter research on silicon, you can probably step into a job at intel, but otherwise this is a hard transition to make. Most of my phd cohort had to leave science all together to get a job in 'industry.' (think insurance,finance,etc)

This is, sadly, exactly right. I work at an organization that does basic research and hires a lot of physicists. For every post-doc or scientist position we have open we probably get on the order of a hundred applications. Of those, usually 10-20 could potentially be good fits for the position. Of those, one gets the job. That's a lot of competition.

The only piece of advice I would give physics PhD students is to be sure they are good programmers when they graduate. The advanced problem solving skills and ability to assimilate a large amount of knowledge quickly that physicists typically have are valuable in industry, but only if you're a good programmer.
 
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  • #10
To answer a few questions,

Like I said I am based in the UK, but I have applied for a lot of postdoc positions in the USA and Europe, and I always get the "Thank you for applying, your application was strong but ..."
I do modify my resume to highlight the skills I have that are relevant to the job I am applying for. I also do the same for my covering letter. Again 99% of the time I cannot even get a reply saying that I was unsuccessful.

I would like to say that I have an excellent understanding of java and c++, but every job I have applied for which requires computer programming never gets back to me.

My family do put pressure on me, because they simply cannot believe that someone with my qualifications cannot find a job, and when I told them I had applied for a bus driver job they laughed at me, and told me that if I give up now, I was throwing away 10 years of my life, all that hard work I had done to get my qualifications. I don't really want to say that I wasted 10 years of my life studying physics at university, because I do love physics and have had some fantastic experiences attending and contributing to experiments in major labs around the world, and I will always be a keen amateur astronomer, so physics will be in my life for as long as I have a heartbeat.

I am sorry if what I have said sounds depressing, but I should add that I am not down about this; like I mentioned earlier I found a job as a bus driver, and I feel somewhat content and happy when I do this, so much so that I am seriously considering, forgetting about my past in academia, trying to begin a career in academia or industry, and making bus driving my career. When you have applied for over 100 positions in academia and industry, it starts to hit home that, maybe its time to forget about physics as a career.

Anyway, thank you all for your replies and advice, its appreciated.
 
  • #11
Can you apply to a job on a university? This seems to me the best option nowadays.
 
  • #12
jacksonshana said:
To answer a few questions,

Like I said I am based in the UK, but I have applied for a lot of postdoc positions in the USA and Europe, and I always get the "Thank you for applying, your application was strong but ..."
I do modify my resume to highlight the skills I have that are relevant to the job I am applying for. I also do the same for my covering letter. Again 99% of the time I cannot even get a reply saying that I was unsuccessful.

I would like to say that I have an excellent understanding of java and c++, but every job I have applied for which requires computer programming never gets back to me.

My family do put pressure on me, because they simply cannot believe that someone with my qualifications cannot find a job, and when I told them I had applied for a bus driver job they laughed at me, and told me that if I give up now, I was throwing away 10 years of my life, all that hard work I had done to get my qualifications. I don't really want to say that I wasted 10 years of my life studying physics at university, because I do love physics and have had some fantastic experiences attending and contributing to experiments in major labs around the world, and I will always be a keen amateur astronomer, so physics will be in my life for as long as I have a heartbeat.

I am sorry if what I have said sounds depressing, but I should add that I am not down about this; like I mentioned earlier I found a job as a bus driver, and I feel somewhat content and happy when I do this, so much so that I am seriously considering, forgetting about my past in academia, trying to begin a career in academia or industry, and making bus driving my career. When you have applied for over 100 positions in academia and industry, it starts to hit home that, maybe its time to forget about physics as a career.




Anyway, thank you all for your replies and advice, its appreciated.

I have a few additional questions. When you say you applied to over 100 positions in academia and industry (in the US and Europe -- have you considered applying to places such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, even Asian countries such as Singapore or China), how precisely are you applying for them? Because one thing you need to keep in mind is that many jobs these days are found through networking rather than through formal job postings (online or print). So it is really important for you develop some key networks.

Have you considered attending conferences (not just those for physics, but for industry conferences)? Have you considered preparing your own business cards and introducing yourselves to people? Do you have a profile on LinkedIn (or even Facebook), highlighting your skills and experiences?

Furthermore, as ParticleGrl has stated, no one cares if you graduated with a physics degree because physics degrees have never on its own been particularly marketable -- it's the additional analytical skills that you gained through getting the degree that makes you marketable. And selling yourself is critical.

While I have nothing against being a bus driver, and ultimately it is your choice what path you wish to take, I personally feel that you are making a mistake settling for less. You had invested over 10 years with a higher education, and it is a waste to throw it all away, which is essentially what you are doing.

And as an aside, applying to over 100 positions in 1 year is nothing. I have applied to over 100 positions in 3 months during spells of unemployment.
 
  • #13
Hi StatGuy2000,

to answer your questions, yes I have applied for a few positions in Canada, however, in my field of nuclear physics there are very few opportunities available in asia, australia, new zealand, none that I have seen anyway.
I apply for most positions via job sites such as jobs.ac.uk, cv-library ... or via information from my friends who work in physics. I would love to attend conferences, but I simply cannot afford to do so, I had been unemployed for a long time, and money is tight. As for business cards, facebook linked etc etc, I have to say that I am not a member of facebook or linked, and I have not printed any business cards. I do however have my own website, which states my qualifications and interests. I am not really a big fan of facebook though, a complete waste of time and energy in my opinion.
Lastly I simply could not apply for more jobs than what I did. They were the only jobs I was interested in, and I refuse to apply for jobs just for the sake of applying for jobs. I have no intention of working in a position that I feel I would not like and have no interest in doing. I would rather stay working as a bus driver; sure the pay may be worse but at least I would have a higher level of job satisfaction.
 
  • #14
You are in a tough field. I received my PhD in low energy nuclear physics (LENP) 6 years ago and the field has only gotten worse since then. In US universities LENP is all but disappearing except for groups that do exotic particle searches and neutrino physics. The US national labs used to sweep up LENP physicists but due to budget problems they are not hiring and in some cases, like Oak Ridge, actually reducing staff and closing facilities. The postdocs I currently work with seem to be having difficulty getting their next positions.

ParticleGirl's advice is useful. Have you looked into radiation oncology programs? It is possible to do a residency in one of these programs with a PhD in nuclear physics.
 
  • #15
I finished up my PhD in experimental high energy physics in June of last year. I didn't have tons of trouble finding a job, but I had absolutely no luck with jobs related to physics. I didn't apply to any academic postdocs, but I did apply to some industry jobs that were physics related.

I really wasn't qualified for those industry jobs though, so my lack of success was no real surprise. The issue was that all the physics related jobs I saw wanted skills you'd pick up during a PhD in condensed matter experiment or an EE PhD. I don't have those skills. High energy experiment involves far more software development than it does physics in a lot of ways.

I was able to get a job as a software developer because of my skill set. The actual PhD was a hindrance though, since I am doing a job most people with an undergraduate degree in CS degree could do. Despite this I was still able to find a job even though I limited my search to a single geographic area (San Francisco Bay Area). Most of the 'work' I had to do in interviews was not convincing everyone that I could do the job, but that I actually wanted that specific job. I also heavily tailored my resume to emphasize the software development work I had done during graduate school. It didn't even mention my dissertation topic (it did mention the sub-field of physics my degree was in though). I just talked about the software work I did for the experimental collaboration that I was a part of.

My advice would be to only concentrate on jobs for which you have concrete skills that would be useful to the job. Also remember that 'over-qualified' is code for 'I think this individual will quit in six months when they get the job they really want'. You need to be able to convince the hiring managers that this is really the job that you want.

Do you have lots of programming experience? It's surprising to me that you had no luck with programming jobs. What sorts of programming jobs did you apply for?
 
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  • #16
Wise words from gbeagle, especially about how to tailor your resume and interview to the particular objections you will face.
 
  • #17
Sheets said:
You are in a tough field. I received my PhD in low energy nuclear physics (LENP) 6 years ago and the field has only gotten worse since then. In US universities LENP is all but disappearing except for groups that do exotic particle searches and neutrino physics. The US national labs used to sweep up LENP physicists but due to budget problems they are not hiring and in some cases, like Oak Ridge, actually reducing staff and closing facilities. The postdocs I currently work with seem to be having difficulty getting their next positions.

ParticleGirl's advice is useful. Have you looked into radiation oncology programs? It is possible to do a residency in one of these programs with a PhD in nuclear physics.

Tell me about it ! the funding was slashed a couple of years ago, though funding for particle physics remains constant in the UK; anyway one consequence of this was a massive reduction in the number of postdoc positions, however the number of funded PhD's in my field remains constant, so I guess my situation is a consequence of this also. Plus I have a postdoc friend who is in his sixth year as a postdoc ! so what chance have new PhD grads got when they are up against a postdoc with six years experience ?
 
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  • #18
gbeagle said:
I finished up my PhD in experimental high energy physics in June of last year. I didn't have tons of trouble finding a job, but I had absolutely no luck with jobs related to physics. I didn't apply to any academic postdocs, but I did apply to some industry jobs that were physics related.

I really wasn't qualified for those industry jobs though, so my lack of success was no real surprise. The issue was that all the physics related jobs I saw wanted skills you'd pick up during a PhD in condensed matter experiment or an EE PhD. I don't have those skills. High energy experiment involves far more software development than it does physics in a lot of ways.

I was able to get a job as a software developer because of my skill set. The actual PhD was a hindrance though, since I am doing a job most people with an undergraduate degree in CS degree could do. Despite this I was still able to find a job even though I limited my search to a single geographic area (San Francisco Bay Area). Most of the 'work' I had to do in interviews was not convincing everyone that I could do the job, but that I actually wanted that specific job. I also heavily tailored my resume to emphasize the software development work I had done during graduate school. It didn't even mention my dissertation topic (it did mention the sub-field of physics my degree was in though). I just talked about the software work I did for the experimental collaboration that I was a part of.

My advice would be to only concentrate on jobs for which you have concrete skills that would be useful to the job. Also remember that 'over-qualified' is code for 'I think this individual will quit in six months when they get the job they really want'. You need to be able to convince the hiring managers that this is really the job that you want.

Do you have lots of programming experience? It's surprising to me that you had no luck with programming jobs. What sorts of programming jobs did you apply for?

I hear what your saying gbeagle, and I do try to change my cv to match the job I am applying for, and I get the same kind of the response that you have had for positions in industry. I agree also it is hard to convince employers that you want the job and you won't just up sticks and leave when a better offer comes along. For instance for my job as a bus driver, if I even mentioned my first degree on my application I know for a fact I would not have got to the interview stage never mind get offered the job.

As far as computer programming goes, well I think I have a decent level of understanding of java and c++, but by no means would I consider myself an expert. Therefore, I have limited my applications to graduate level positions when applying for computer programming vacancies, but still I have not been offered a position.
 
  • #19
jacksonshana said:
Hi StatGuy2000,

to answer your questions, yes I have applied for a few positions in Canada, however, in my field of nuclear physics there are very few opportunities available in asia, australia, new zealand, none that I have seen anyway.
I apply for most positions via job sites such as jobs.ac.uk, cv-library ... or via information from my friends who work in physics. I would love to attend conferences, but I simply cannot afford to do so, I had been unemployed for a long time, and money is tight. As for business cards, facebook linked etc etc, I have to say that I am not a member of facebook or linked, and I have not printed any business cards. I do however have my own website, which states my qualifications and interests. I am not really a big fan of facebook though, a complete waste of time and energy in my opinion.
Lastly I simply could not apply for more jobs than what I did. They were the only jobs I was interested in, and I refuse to apply for jobs just for the sake of applying for jobs. I have no intention of working in a position that I feel I would not like and have no interest in doing. I would rather stay working as a bus driver; sure the pay may be worse but at least I would have a higher level of job satisfaction.

Having a website stating your qualifications and interests is fine, but I cannot stress enough the importance of networking, especially if you wish to move beyond physics into finding employment which incorporates skills you gained in your graduate program or skills that you are willing to learn and retool into be more marketable, such as programming, statistical analysis, or quantitative finance (3 common areas in "industry" for former physics PhDs).

I strongly recommend that you set up a LinkedIn profile, outlining your skills, education and experiences. It's a great resource to both get your skills known to the wider community, search for positions that may not be posted in the sites you looked at, and connecting with both recruiters and employers as well as other people with your background. You really should take full advantage of it.
 
  • #20
You mention you applied to be a teacher. I'm very surprised it didn't go anywhere as I've been led to believe they are crying out for physics teachers here in the UK (the IOP magazine has adverts every month and there's usually lots of posters around if I visit a physics department).

There's some more info here:
http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/subjects-age-groups/teach-physics

I know it's probably not ideal but surely it's better than becoming a bus driver!
 
  • #21
reasonableman said:
You mention you applied to be a teacher. I'm very surprised it didn't go anywhere as I've been led to believe they are crying out for physics teachers here in the UK

My wife and I live in Canada. After getting an M.Sc. in Physics and an M.Eng., my wife decided to do a B.Ed. Near the end of this program (in Canada; two years ago), she was recruited fairly aggressively for UK teaching positions. The recruiting firms led her to believe that, because of the shortage of physics teachers in the UK, her lack of UK citizenship would not be a problem for initial placement.
 
  • #22
George Jones said:
My wife and I live in Canada. After getting an M.Sc. in Physics and an M.Eng., my wife decided to do a B.Ed. Near the end of this program (in Canada; two years ago), she was recruited fairly aggressively for UK teaching positions. The recruiting firms led her to believe that, because of the shortage of physics teachers in the UK, her lack of UK citizenship would not be a problem for initial placement.
Yes if you have a B.Ed then this will be the case. However, I don't have this and I really do not want to go back to university for another three years to get this either. The alternative to this is a one/two year Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE), which is what I applied for a while back. However, I attended the interview and was told that having a degree in physics it is not that important, all you need is a first degree in any subject to teach physics, as the course covers all the subjects that will make you ready to be a physics/science teacher (which makes a mockery of the IOP's claim that physics graduates are in high demand for teaching positions), in fact they said they were more interested in the amount of experience I have teaching at this level and my motivation to be a teacher. They said that the competition is such that they only offer places on such courses if you have had at least 100 hours experience in a secondary school environment.

I did not have this much experience, so no surprise that I was not offered a place on the course, and to be honest I am not sure that teaching at this level is what I want to do, if I was going to teach I would prefer teaching in an adult environment in a college or something similar.
 
  • #23
reasonableman said:
You mention you applied to be a teacher. I'm very surprised it didn't go anywhere as I've been led to believe they are crying out for physics teachers here in the UK (the IOP magazine has adverts every month and there's usually lots of posters around if I visit a physics department).

There's some more info here:
http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/subjects-age-groups/teach-physics

I know it's probably not ideal but surely it's better than becoming a bus driver!

A bus driver is not as bad as you think ! In fact it's quite an enjoyable job in my opinion.
 
  • #24
jacksonshana said:
They said that the competition is such that they only offer places on such courses if you have had at least 100 hours experience in a secondary school environment.
Hmm, well there goes my backup plan. Given the advertising campaign I thought it was a sure thing!

I'm sure bus driving is fine but, as you said, doing a PhD to do it seems a little wasteful. Of course, if that's what makes you happy, you shouldn't let a guy on the internet tell you what to do!
 
  • #25
Problem with advertising campaigns is that they are not guarantees.

Like the "shortage of engineers" call coming from industry that can never be satisfied because the more engineers they get the more talent they can take the top X percent and pit them against the (1-X) percent to lower wages then let the remaining (1-X) percent worry about finding jobs outside of engineering wherever they can.
 
  • #26
jacksonshana said:
As far as computer programming goes, well I think I have a decent level of understanding of java and c++, but by no means would I consider myself an expert. Therefore, I have limited my applications to graduate level positions when applying for computer programming vacancies, but still I have not been offered a position.

Strange, our level of programming expertise are probably very similar. It might be that my experience just isn't applicable to the UK job market. What sorts of companies were you applying to for programming jobs?

Some additional info that may be helpful: I had zero success at large companies. I assume my app was being auto-screened by whatever application screening systems they used. Ironically, I also had little success applying to programming position at companies that did any sort of engineering or science, where I would have thought my skills would be more highly valued. I encountered a lot more success at companies that do regular business software. I'm not really sure what that means.

Another thing that I found helpful for networking was going to local programming related meetup groups/clubs.
 
  • #27
gbeagle said:
Strange, our level of programming expertise are probably very similar. It might be that my experience just isn't applicable to the UK job market. What sorts of companies were you applying to for programming jobs?

Some additional info that may be helpful: I had zero success at large companies. I assume my app was being auto-screened by whatever application screening systems they used. Ironically, I also had little success applying to programming position at companies that did any sort of engineering or science, where I would have thought my skills would be more highly valued. I encountered a lot more success at companies that do regular business software. I'm not really sure what that means.

Another thing that I found helpful for networking was going to local programming related meetup groups/clubs.


Sorry for the late reply gbeagle,

anyway, the size of the companies I apply for varies, though the majority are small companies, as they don't require you to go through endless assesment center's. I have a similar experience with programming positions at science/engineering companies, where I usually do not even get a reply when I apply for their positions. Anyway, I don't know if would like getting a job programming in a company that has no physics/engineering/science aspect to it, I mean apart from the financial side, which to be honest is not that important to me; driving a bus seems to be a more interesting job to me than working on software that I really don't care about.
 
  • #28
jacksonshana said:
I should say I am based in the UK, and I have applied for over 100 jobs in fields such as engineering, energy, statistics, computer programming, graduate scheme's, teacher, and even lab assistants at high schools, and on the rare ocassions that I get a reply, I am told that I am over qualified, or have too much experience or not enough. There just seems to be no one interested in what I have done or the skills I have gained at university.

Applied or cold-called directly to the companies? Or did you go to career fairs to tell companies to their face why you're looking for jobs perhaps below your credentials? Did you ask friends, family, neighbors, etc.? Email companies directly?

I highly doubt that there "seems to be no one interested in my skills.." You need to change how you're looking for a job. Be aggressive, I mean you are desperate, right?
 
  • #29
Very interesting, what I am reading under this thread. I finished a PhD in particle physics many years ago and never found anything to replace the adventure. Unfortunately I seem to have slipped into retirement / unemployment. Would like find programming work (full time or part time) .

I am based in Central London. Post here seem to have a lot of US reference but if there is anyone geographically close that would want to meet up in Starbucks as mentioned above.

Any suggestions to forums where I can post this sort subject appreciated
 
  • #30
UCLPAUL said:
Very interesting, what I am reading under this thread. I finished a PhD in particle physics many years ago and never found anything to replace the adventure. Unfortunately I seem to have slipped into retirement / unemployment. Would like find programming work (full time or part time) .

I am based in Central London. Post here seem to have a lot of US reference but if there is anyone geographically close that would want to meet up in Starbucks as mentioned above.

Any suggestions to forums where I can post this sort subject appreciated

Hi Paul, I'm assuming you're from UCL, the P&A department is holding a talk tomorrow (6-7.30PM) given by 8 graduates, showcasing what kind of jobs they're doing now (at phd, msc, and bsc levels).

Email c.jordan@ucl.ac.uk for a spot, but if it's too late I would just show up at the department (Room E7) and try to slip in.
 
  • #31
SophusLies said:
Applied or cold-called directly to the companies? Or did you go to career fairs to tell companies to their face why you're looking for jobs perhaps below your credentials? Did you ask friends, family, neighbors, etc.? Email companies directly?

I highly doubt that there "seems to be no one interested in my skills.." You need to change how you're looking for a job. Be aggressive, I mean you are desperate, right?

All the jobs I have applied for were advertised. I have went to career fairs and had good feedback, but when I applied to the company I had no reply. I asked friends from uni and postdoc's, but they are too busy trying to find their own jobs.

If someone was interested in my skills, then I wish they would let me know about it, because from my experience there seems to be no interest at all.

"Be aggresive" ? I don't understand what you mean; do you want me to beg ? Sorry, but I may not have a job in physics but I do have some self respect, so if that's the kind of thing you mean by "you are desperate, right" then no I am not that desperate, why should I be that desperate ?
 
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  • #32
Did you apply any jobs in Germany ?
 
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  • #33
"Be aggressive" in this case seems very close to just saying he should "put in 110% effort".
 
  • #34
maybe you could apply to a job in southamerica. There you have the "National Atomic Energy Commission" (Centro Nacional de Energia Atomica). And you can send your information to this email - info@cab.cnea.gov.ar -. The website is - http://www.cab.cnea.gov.ar/index.php/contacto - and this is other website form the Balseiro Institute (Instituto Balseiro) - http://www.ib.edu.ar/index.php/english-version.html - and here the email --- info@ib.edu.ar ---.
 
  • #35
Diorr said:
Did you apply any jobs in Germany ?

I have applied for postdoc jobs in Germany, but not jobs in companies as I do not speak German, and I guess that this is something these companies would really want any candidate to do.
 
  • #36
jesse73 said:
"Be aggressive" in this case seems very close to just saying he should "put in 110% effort".
I still do not understand, so what would someone who puts in "110%" do more than the person who puts in "100%" to find a job ?

Anyway it really is pointless citing percentages about how much effort someone exerts to find a job. I mean it might sound good, but to be honest it is of little use, at the end of the day I try my best in all my job searches and all the applications I make, and that is all I can do.
 
  • #37
Tyler.Smith said:
maybe you could apply to a job in southamerica. There you have the "National Atomic Energy Commission" (Centro Nacional de Energia Atomica). And you can send your information to this email - info@cab.cnea.gov.ar -. The website is - http://www.cab.cnea.gov.ar/index.php/contacto - and this is other website form the Balseiro Institute (Instituto Balseiro) - http://www.ib.edu.ar/index.php/english-version.html - and here the email --- info@ib.edu.ar ---.

Thank you for the links Tyler.Smith, but again I imagine that I would need to speak Spanish or Portuguese to a decent level in order to have a realistic chance of being offered a position in these countries. Unfortunatley I do not.
 
  • #38
jacksonshana said:
I still do not understand, so what would someone who puts in "110%" do more than the person who puts in "100%" to find a job ?

Anyway it really is pointless citing percentages about how much effort someone exerts to find a job. I mean it might sound good, but to be honest it is of little use, at the end of the day I try my best in all my job searches and all the applications I make, and that is all I can do.

I believe when others refer to "putting in 110%", they mean do not simply rely on applying for jobs that are posted or contacting your former classmates, but go beyond that to really focus on developing skills that are "marketable" that you either possesses already through your education or are willing to develop on your own, perhaps while you are currently working as a bus driver (much as ParticleGrl had done while she had worked as a bartender) -- for someone like you, based on your research work, that would be programming/software development, statistical analysis/data analysis/machine learning, or computational finance (all popular areas for former physicists, especially for finance in the UK).

Then focus on networking, by setting up a LinkedIn page (at the risk of repeating myself, I STRONGLY recommend doing this); joining discussion forums online on software development, statistics/machine learning, or finance; attending seminars; meeting people; talking to headhunters/recruiters; even cold-calling companies.

You had said that you had went to career fairs and had good feedback, but didn't hear anything back when you applied to the company -- did you get any business cards or any contact info for the people you met there? Did you call and follow up with the person you met? Simply applying and waiting for a response is NOT enough!
 
  • #39
What is so great about LinkedIn? I signed up when I was looking for career style jobs, it didn't seem very helpful.
 
  • #40
ModusPwnd said:
What is so great about LinkedIn? I signed up when I was looking for career style jobs, it didn't seem very helpful.

LinkedIn is a social networking site for job seekers, recruiters and employers to essentially "find each other" as well as providing various tools for online discussions related to various career fields (for example, I am a member of a statistician's networking group on LinkedIn).

After signing up for LinkedIn and posting my qualifications, I have had many recruiters and employers contact me informing me about job openings -- in many cases these jobs were not even publically posted on any job site (often through the people I've connected with through the networking groups). Plus LinkedIn also has a search engine that allows you to search for work like Monster.

Of course, simply signing up to LinkedIn doesn't guarantee anything, but it allows you to expand your ability to network.
 
  • #41
why get a PHD if all you end up doing is programming?
 
  • #42
EternityMech said:
why get a PHD if all you end up doing is programming?

Because not all programming is created equal.
 
  • #43
StatGuy2000 said:
I believe when others refer to "putting in 110%", they mean do not simply rely on applying for jobs that are posted or contacting your former classmates, but go beyond that to really focus on developing skills that are "marketable" that you either possesses already through your education or are willing to develop on your own, perhaps while you are currently working as a bus driver (much as ParticleGrl had done while she had worked as a bartender) -- for someone like you, based on your research work, that would be programming/software development, statistical analysis/data analysis/machine learning, or computational finance (all popular areas for former physicists, especially for finance in the UK).

Then focus on networking, by setting up a LinkedIn page (at the risk of repeating myself, I STRONGLY recommend doing this); joining discussion forums online on software development, statistics/machine learning, or finance; attending seminars; meeting people; talking to headhunters/recruiters; even cold-calling companies.

You had said that you had went to career fairs and had good feedback, but didn't hear anything back when you applied to the company -- did you get any business cards or any contact info for the people you met there? Did you call and follow up with the person you met? Simply applying and waiting for a response is NOT enough!

I hear what your saying StatGuy2000, but I have been 'developing my skills' for the last 10 years at university, and I am only going to learn new skills if I am interested what I am doing. Thus this excludes computational finance and other non science related computer programming positions. Believe it or not, I actually spent 10 years studying physics to become a physicist not a computer programmer or any other unrelated type of career. However, despite applying for a lot of jobs, for one reason or another, I cannot seem to find a position in which I can achieve this. But as I have said, I am quite happy to stay as a bus driver, while I continue to try and land a job I like, simply because to me, driving buses is a whole lot more interesting than computational finance.

p.s I joined LinkedIn couple of weeks ago, and I have to say so far I am very dissapointed in it, there has been no job leads whatsoever, it has been to busy spamming my email account every day telling me to follow people that are in completely unrelated fields.
 
  • #44
Believe it or not, I actually spent 10 years studying physics to become a physicist not a computer programmer or any other unrelated type of career.

But you were lied to, and now you are lying to yourself- there are no careers to be had in physics. Its time to readjust and retool. The physics chapter in your life is over. The majority of physics phds leave physics- you took your shot, rolled the dice, and lost- but that's ok, the odds were heavily stacked toward the house.

You might not hate driving a bus, but you probably don't want to do it forever (at the very least there are probably decent alternatives that pay way better).

But as I have said, I am quite happy to stay as a bus driver, while I continue to try and land a job I like, simply because to me, driving buses is a whole lot more interesting than computational finance.

That physics job is never going to show up. Put yourself in the shoes of an employer doing hiring- you have a choice between hiring someone who was publishing recently and hiring someone who has been driving a bus for the last year.

Its time to move on.
 
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  • #45
It never stops to amaze me that people can be so delusional. In my country everyone and their mothers know that there are no jobs in physics/chemistry/biology etc. How come you didn't know that? Is there some kind of conspiracy in US?

Anyway you don't need to be computer programmer. You can get MSc in engineering and work as engineer or you can do something else.

The point is - give up physics and start doing something different. I'm sure there are careers out there that can make you happy.
 
  • #46
Rika, did you read anything in this thread? The OP is based in the UK.

ParticleGrl, I think you're forcing your own opinions/ambitions onto him. You left physics by choice, you said you didn't want the post-doc life and that prof's you had were dishonest to you.

This doesn't sound like shana's experience. And afaik, after spending a number of months at a UK university, I've learned that the prospect for UK phd's staying in the UK after graduating and having a scientific career is very, very low. The default option seems to be doing a post-doc in another country or two before returning to the UK to have a sensible chance. A few phd's and most physics undergraduates I've met here don't plan on making science a career, just an adventure for a few years that they'll give up on when they decide to have a family/stay in the same place.

I don't think profs paint an unrealistic picture for anyone here either, they sometimes joke about it along the lines of "since most of you want to work for a bank..." and most of the class laughs in agreement.
 
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  • #47
This doesn't sound like shana's experience. And afaik, after spending a number of months at a UK university, I've learned that the prospect for UK phd's staying in the UK after graduating and having a scientific career is very, very low.

But its important to realize the probability is OVERALL very, very low. Even if you do postdocs outside the UK. In today's economy, even getting a decent postdoc is tough. Doing a postdoc still leaves you with very low odds to continue in physics.

I don't think profs paint an unrealistic picture for anyone here either, they sometimes joke about it along the lines of "since most of you want to work for a bank..." and most of the class laughs in agreement.

The misdirect there is in the word WANT. Physics phds don't work for banks and insurance companies because that's their hearts desire, they want to be physicists. Physics phds work for banks and insurance companies because that's where the work is.

jacksonshana is of the opinion that because he did a phd and what he wants is a job in physics he'll eventually find one- that's not how the world works. The longer he/she spends driving a bus, the less likely it gets that the physics job will ever show up. Most physics phds work for banks or as programmers or at insurance companies because they can't get jobs in physics, not because the banking/programming/insurance analysis is more appealing.
 
  • #48
And how do you know that? You were never in the post-doc market in or outside the UK. Doing no postdoc leaves you with null odds of continuing in academia too, so let's not exaggerate the already bleak prospects, it's getting a little ridiculous.

And what the profs really said was "will be bankers or consultants", not "want", now that I remember. But a lot of people I have spoken to do WANT banking jobs because they pay well and they need them to sustain their fairly high standard of living (as compared to mine, but I come from a comparatively poor background).

I still haven't met any physics undergraduates here that want a phd or take science seriously like a career, it doesn't look at all like it's their #1 ambition.
 
  • #49
And how do you know that? You were never in the post-doc market in or outside the UK. Doing no postdoc leaves you with null odds of continuing in academia too, so let's not exaggerate the already bleak prospects, it's getting a little ridiculous.

I actually turned down an offer at Durham, and I've worked with postdocs from all over the world (all grad students do). Most of the postdocs I know left physics not-by-choice. But my personal sample might be biased, so we can turn to the long term career studies of UK physics phds.

This chart is from a long term study of physics phd in the UK (hoisted from a thread in this forum) -http://imgur.com/8SOJX Just under half of phds do postdocs, but only about 3.5% (of the total) make it to permanent research staff (0.45% are tenure track professors). So doing some postdocs increases your odds to < 10%.

But this is irrelevant to what's at hand (whats important for the OP)- if you fail to get a postdoc, driving a bus for a year will greatly diminish your odds of getting one in the future. We can't all be movie stars.
 
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  • #50
I have seen the chart you posted. I would be really surprised if it included post-docs and tenureship of UK phd's abroad, I doubt whatever organization that compiled those statistics keeps track of UK scientists that have emigrated (as is the case for practically everyone doing HEP in the UK or so I've heard).

Also, if I'm reading it correctly, 30% of phd's make it into the "permanent research staff" region. Then ~0.88 of those choose to quit for other non-research careers. I don't think that's so bad, especially when the first fraction of potential competitors (0.53) left during the post-doc stage or never even begun it, for whatever reason(and I'm starting to believe not doing post-docs is not due to lack of opportunity, this has been the only thread I've heard about someone failing to get a postdoc, while I've heard at least half a dozen cases of fresh phd's passing on post-docs apart from your own).

I think the only unrealistic expectation is that of university professorship, but there are other avenues like government/contractor research. My university recently held a colloquium given by 8 former graduates (some with phd's). Some were post-docs, others worked for government labs, one in banking 1 or 2 AWE/defense, etc.

And I'm sorry I can't be more helpful to the OP, I really don't know how it is in the field. Maybe it was just an unlucky year for that field, have you considered post-docs in not immediately-related fields? Speaking way out of my knowledge here, but I have heard of people doing postdocs in radically different fields and later making a career out of them.

But if it's your choice to keep doing what you do and you're enjoying it, there's absolutely no shame in it. Like others have said, don't let some random people on the internet tell you what you should do to be happy, only you can know that for sure.
 
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