Finite Group G w/ Non-Normal Subgroup H & Prime Index [G:H]

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around finding an example of a finite group G with a non-normal subgroup H such that the index [G:H] is prime. The original poster considers the alternating group A4 and explores its subgroups, while also seeking alternative examples.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Problem interpretation, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster examines the subgroup structure of A4, eliminating certain orders based on the requirement for a prime index. Participants discuss the possibility of using the symmetric group S5 and the embedding of S4, questioning the normality of the subgroup.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively exploring different group structures and their properties. Some guidance has been offered regarding the embedding of S4 into S5, and there is an ongoing examination of the validity of specific subgroup properties and calculations.

Contextual Notes

There is a focus on the subgroup orders within A4 and the implications of normality in the context of S5. The discussion highlights the constraints of subgroup orders and the necessity of proving non-normality.

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What is an example of a finite group G that has a subgroup H which is not normal but for which the index [G:H] is prime?

I was thinking about the alternating group A4 which has order 12, I know that the subgroups of A4 must have order 12, 6, 4, 3 , 2 or 1. But we need a prime index so I can eliminate subgroups of order 1,2 and 3 and 12. Also A4 does not have a subgroup of index 2, so I can also eliminate subgroups of order 6. So here I am looking for a subgroup of A4 of order 4.
What would that be? Or any other example that satisfies the requirements.
 
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Well, there is one subgroup of A_4 which has order 4, but unfortunately for your problem, it's also a normal subgroup of A_4. (Specifically, this subgroup is {(1), (12)(34), (13)(24), (14)(23)}). And this is the only subgroup of A_4 having order 4, so I'm afraid that using A_4 as the overgroup is a doomed approach.

Try letting G=S_5 and H be the obvious embedding of S_4 into S_5. I'm sure you can prove that the resulting subgroup isn't normal.
 
Thanks, by embedding, do you mean that we just consider the permutations of the numbers {1,2,3,4} and assume that 5 is fixed? Also I was thinking maybe for proving that S_4 is not normal in S_5 to show that there exists an element g in S_5 such that gS_4g^-1 is not contained in S_4.
So I choose g=(12345), x=(1234) in S_4
hence gxg^-1=(1235) which is not in S_4. Is this valid?
 
math8 said:
Thanks, by embedding, do you mean that we just consider the permutations of the numbers {1,2,3,4} and assume that 5 is fixed?

Yes, that's the embedding I was thinking of.

Also I was thinking maybe for proving that S_4 is not normal in S_5 to show that there exists an element g in S_5 such that gS_4g^-1 is not contained in S_4.
So I choose g=(12345), x=(1234) in S_4
hence gxg^-1=(1235) which is not in S_4. Is this valid?

Your approach is right on, but your arithmetic is wrong. [itex]gxg^{-1}(1) = gx(5) = g(5) = 1[/itex], so [itex]gxg^{-1}[/itex] cannot possibly be (1235). (In fact, for your given choice, [itex]gxg^{-1} = \text{(2345)}[/itex]).
 
Oh yes, you're right, I guess I was doing g^-1xg instead of gxg^-1.

Thanks
 

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