First person without a legal gender

[Kajahtava]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/03/16/2010-03-16_no_sex_for_me_please_extranssexual_briton_is_first_legally_genderless_person.html

Interesting, I might get me one of those.

 

[Kajahtava]

I believe its mind told it it's nothing really.

By the way, can you point out any difference between a 'gender identity' and a 'subculture', any thing that does not apply to the former but does to the later or the reverse. Because I haven't found it and neither has any person that I know of.

There are people that are so into anime they want to be Japanese and are distressed by their not being. There are people that are so into female stuff that they want to be female, and are distressed by their not being.

 

[MotoH]

Those people are weird and should be marooned on an island in the south Atlantic.

 

[rootX]

Those people are weird and should be marooned on an island in the south Atlantic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg

 

[waht]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/qpdx/2008/08/small_trans-bathroom.jpg

 

[Kajahtava]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg

Ahahaha, interesting.

Consider this thread my coming out by the way, I don't have a gender identity, and I never got the business either.

What does 'having an identity', any identity mean really? It just means you 'see yourself' as 'male' or as 'female' or something? How can you 'see yourself' as that? What does it even mean to be that?

How can you 'see yourself' as some-thing, as any-thing, I don't get it. I mean, I get it if it's some defined thing, but then you don't 'see yourself' as it, then you're just it, or you aren't. But things like 'gender' or 'human' or 'punker' or 'republican' or 'Christian' are just so different, so vague, every one interprets it in a completely different way that I really don't get what it means any more to 'identify' as it.

 

[mgb_phys]

Balancing the cost of adding a tri-bool type for gender to all RDMS and fixing millions of tables in millions of databases vs just putting out a hit - I think the association of database admins are going to be making a call to someone called 'vinne the...'

Then maybe we can get a bulk deal on people with names longer than 80chars, people with a ' and anyone who insists that von or van shouldn't be ordered under 'v'

 

[MotoH]

You are a male if you have a penis.

A female if you have a vagina.

You are still a male even if you removed your penis.

You are still a female even if you removed your vagina.

There is no in between. It is black and white, no matter how your mind "sees yourself."

 

[mgb_phys]

You are a male if you have a penis.
A female if you have a vagina.

Generally a good guideline in a bar.

But leaving aside this 'personal choice' case - external dangly bits and chromosomes don't always tell the same story.
You can be a male with an insensitivity to testosterone which will give you a vagina and no penis.

 

[Kajahtava]

You are a male if you have a penis.

A female if you have a vagina.

You are still a male even if you removed your penis.

You are still a female even if you removed your vagina.

There is no in between. It is black and white, no matter how your mind "sees yourself."

Sure? Why do you complain then if people act out a different gender?

You just said they stay male or female? By your own definition here, these people you don't like because they are a different gender than they claim in fact are still the same gender?

You just said it, saying you are female or male doesn't change a thing about your gender, so where do you complain about? By your own definition, these people you're so scared of don't exist.

 

[NeoDevin]

You are a male if you have a penis.

A female if you have a vagina.

You are still a male even if you removed your penis.

You are still a female even if you removed your vagina.

What if you removed your penis and gained a vagina? Then you "have a vagina", so by your definition are female. Never mind hermaphrodites...

Probably a better way to define it is with chromosomes, but then you're still left with http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-xxy-chromosomes.htm".

I guess my point is: Gender is not as well defined as you'd like to think it is.

 

[Kajahtava]

What if you removed your penis and gained a vagina? Then you "have a vagina", so by your definition are female. Never mind hermaphrodites...

Probably a better way to define it is with chromosomes, but then you're still left with http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-xxy-chromosomes.htm".

I guess my point is, gender is not as well defined as you'd like to think it is.

Well, there is the SRY gene, however, the argument that can never be overcome is mosaics. A lot of people are so called mosaics, if by the first, or the second division of a fertilized zygote a functional mutation occurs, 1/4 or 1/2 of your cells will simply have different DNA, if it's not in antigens, this will not cause any bad sides, in fact, it's why some people have two colours of hairdo or two different eye colours.

What if this happens to your SRY gene hmm?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

There is no in between. It is black and white, no matter how your mind "sees yourself."

Fail. Google 'ambiguous genitalia'

 

[mgb_phys]

What if you removed your penis and gained a vagina?
Then you "have a vagina", so by your definition are female.

By any definition that matters ms Cossey is female

http://67.19.222.106/movies/graphics/cossey.jpg

What if this happens to your SRY gene hmm?

Same thing as multiple chromosones, eg XXY and XYY
If you are male and have a faulty SRY you look like a women.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

You are a male if you have a penis.

A female if you have a vagina.

You are still a male even if you removed your penis.

You are still a female even if you removed your vagina.

There is no in between. It is black and white, no matter how your mind "sees yourself."

What if you were born with both? (Some people are!) What if you were born with a half-formed mess that is really neither? (Some people are!) What if you were born with something indeterminate, and the doctors decided to do some rearranging to make you into one or the other, so that you wouldn't feel out of place at school? (It happens more often than you might think!)

It's rather silly to pretend there must be a strict dichotomy, when in fact there exist people whose physical bodies explicitly violate that dichotomy. Who cares? Let people be who they want to be, I say.

 

[MotoH]

They can be who they want to be, as long as they are on the island in the South Atlantic with the rest of the "I dunnos"

 

[mgb_phys]

Who cares? Let people be who they want to be, I say.

As long as they pick one and I don't have to create a check box that says:
male, female, don't know, don't care, male-female, female-male, male but like to wear clean shirts, female but understands the offside rule,etc.

I'm not rewriting websites to accommodate a slider control for gender.

It's bad enough having to handle people with accents - I hope that midget pop star with the squiggle for a name never catches on again.

 

[mgb_phys]

They can be who they want to be, as long as they are on the island in the South Atlantic with the rest of the "I dunnos"

You've been to Tasmania as well then?

 

[Kajahtava]

As long as they pick one and I don't have to create a check box that says:
male, female, don't know, don't care, male-female, female-male, male but like to wear clean shirts, female but understands the offside rule,etc.

I'm not rewriting websites to accommodate a slider control for gender.

It's bad enough having to handle people with accents - I hope that midget pop star with the squiggle for a name never catches on again.

Here's a new one: why is there a check box for your gender on so many things where it's not relevant?

Is it relevant what my gender is for the taxes I pay? Do males get to pay less taxes than females? Why do I have to fill it in there?

Why do I have to fill my gender in if I sign up to a forum, do I get banned less easily if I'm a girl?

When people ask me for my sex I say 'male', I have a clear penis, if people ask me for my gender I say 'none', it's like people asking you if you're conservative or liberal, you have to pick either, you can't say 'Well, I think I share elements of both' or 'I decide issue per issue.'

Also, saying you have to keep your gender and sex aligned is like saying you have to be conservative if you're born in the southern US.

 

[MotoH]

Because of demographics. Information on who you are, what you pay, what you watch, what you like all help in companies providing the best product to please everyone.

 

[Kajahtava]

By any definition that matters ms Cossey is female

http://67.19.222.106/movies/graphics/cossey.jpg


Same thing as multiple chromosones, eg XXY and XYY
If you are male and have a faulty SRY you look like a women.

Read better, I talked about mosaics.

What happens if 50% of your cells haven SRY gene, but 50% don't?

 

[mgb_phys]

What happens if 50% of your cells haven SRY gene, but 50% don't?

If you look like that in a bikini - I don't care what you genes say !

 

[fasterthanjoao]

When people ask me for my sex I say 'male', I have a clear penis, if people ask me for my gender I say 'none', it's like people asking you if you're conservative or liberal, you have to pick either, you can't say 'Well, I think I share elements of both' or 'I decide issue per issue.'

Also, saying you have to keep your gender and sex aligned is like saying you have to be conservative if you're born in the southern US.

This isn't a discussion topic I'm familiar with (just to be clear: I do have a gender, as well as a sex..!), and as much as I'm never keen on arguing over what might just be semantics, I'll chip in and see what is said.

I'm no sociologist, but it seems to me that gender is a social construction of the illustration of traits perceived to pertain to one, or both, of the sexes. In this set up, I don't see how someone can claim to have 'no gender'. Whether you're conscious of it or not, you'll have tendencies that society can, and will ascribe to one, or indeed both, of the sexes. It feels to me like rather than gender, this is an issue related to sexuality. Though, with my previous thoughts on the fact that gender is a construction based on ones attitudes, etc, it would then follow that it is possible, probable even, that some will have a different 'gender' depending on the culture they find themselves in.

(also is the discussion on genes etc. properly limited to producing an answer for the 'sex' of an individual rather than gender?)

 

[dlgoff]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/qpdx/2008/08/small_trans-bathroom.jpg

[/URL]
waht, you never cease to amaze me.

 

[Kajahtava]

I'm no sociologist, but it seems to me that gender is a social construction of the illustration of traits perceived to pertain to one, or both, of the sexes. In this set up, I don't see how someone can claim to have 'no gender'. Whether you're conscious of it or not, you'll have tendencies that society can, and will ascribe to one, or indeed both, of the sexes. It feels to me like rather than gender, this is an issue related to sexuality. Though, with my previous thoughts on the fact that gender is a construction based on ones attitudes, etc, it would then follow that it is possible, probable even, that some will have a different 'gender' depending on the culture they find themselves in.

No, I thought that was the case too. But you can have a guy whose female in every situation, he's gay, he spends time in front of the mirror, likes to gossip, likes to cook and what not.

Still, he identifies as as male. He's called 'an effeminate guy'. Gender identity, like any identity is simply what one 'identifies' at, and I have no idea what that is supposed to mean at all, not in any thing, not only gender. But it works like that.

I mean, take any subculture, not only gender. I mean, people that identify as Christian often have completely different interpretations thereof. And in fact, none of them really observes the bible, the bible says nothing of churches, it says we should all eat Halal meat only, it says we cannot rent or loan money with interest (in fact, the reason Muslims can't is because of the bible, Islam is a later religion), very view Christians observe this and they often invent some whole new crap with like going to hell if you don't pray or if you vote Obama.

And they are all completely different in it, but they all identify as Christians, an 'identity' is not what you are, it's how you want to be called. I really can't care if people call me male or female, if my body was destroyed and I had to pick a new one from 50 male and 50 female I'd choose the one I find the most aesthetic. I'm maybe different from the topic subject as it wants to be called 'neuter', I just don't care what people call me or as what they see me. It's just a name without a meaning. If people want to exchange my name for 'Sheep****er' from now on that's fine with me, as long as they keep using it so I know I'm addressed, that they call me that doesn't mean that I **** sheep, now does it?

(also is the discussion on genes etc. properly limited to producing an answer for the 'sex' of an individual rather than gender?)

Sure, but I'm just driving MotoH in a corner.

Best way to beat them is fight them on their own terms, and still win. He said that gender is also genetic, I'm just showing that even then, also loses and it's not black and white at all.

 

[mgb_phys]

(also is the discussion on genes etc. properly limited to producing an answer for the 'sex' of an individual rather than gender?)

Exactly, the answer depends on the domain:
Nightclub, genetics lab, government census

 

[MotoH]

Sure, but I'm just driving MotoH in a corner.

Best way to beat them is fight them on their own terms, and still win. He said that gender is also genetic, I'm just showing that even then, also loses and it's not black and white at all.

All you have shown is that you are a gender confused person trying to justify the way you feel. I have not mentioned anything to do with genetics, only the fact that having a schlong makes you a man, and a vajayjay makes you a woman.

Black and white, it always will be. If you have both you are half black, half white. As long as one genital feature is more prominent than the other, you will be that gender, regardless of how "you feel." Feelings are for girls to talk about whilst they watch The Notebook, and eat a tub of ice cream. Not if your mind says you are a barbie girl, in a barbie world.

Your mind has f***-all to do with what you are. I think I am a bird, does that mean I can fly? Hell no it doesn't.

In other words don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Kajahtava]

All you have shown is that you are a gender confused person trying to justify the way you feel. I have not mentioned anything to do with genetics, only the fact that having a schlong makes you a man, and a vajayjay makes you a woman.

I have no confusion whatsoever about what gender I fall in, I just don't care about which it is or what people call me.

If people say I'm a girl because I've long nails and hair and a feminine waste than that's fine for me, don't care, if people say I'm a guy because I've a goatee and a penis, let them.

People can call me whatever they want, but I have no opinion about myself, and neither do I have about them. I see no need to divide people into genders. People are born with different eye colours too, what's next? Different personal pronouns for people with blue, brown and green eyes and then being really awkward and confused when a person turns up who has one blue and one brown eye? People that say they identify as brown-eyed while they in fact are blue eyed?

Black and white, it always will be. If you have both you are half black, half white. As long as one genital feature is more prominent than the other, you will be that gender, regardless of how "you feel." Feelings are for girls to talk about whilst they watch The Notebook, and eat a tub of ice cream. Not if your mind says you are a barbie girl, in a barbie world.

That's like saying there are only black and white pixels on a screen because you can call them black if the brightness is less than 50%, and white otherwise, come on.

You can call all things black and white with that logic. Sciences are black and white, there is only physics and sociology, as soon as one of them becomes more prominent it falls under it, biology is sociology, most chemistry too, but molecular chemistry is physics, and so is computer science.

Seriously, you're just being confronted by the fact that the world turns out to be more complex and you try to salvage your image thereof.

Edit: Also, you ignore the ****ing point, what if a person who's a 50/50 SRY/no SRY mosaic exists?

That person is not going to have genitalia that are recognisable as either.

Your mind has f***-all to do with what you are. I think I am a bird, does that mean I can fly? Hell no it doesn't.

No, but it does mean you identify as a bird.

Also, we were talking about gender not sex. Sex is appearance, gender is personality. See it as a white negro.

Or do you also think that listening to rap music and claiming to be black deep down inside is not allowed if you're born white?

 

[MotoH]

I succeed the argument.

I now proclaim I am a fish. A fish with feathers and hollow bones. A fish that can fly and also swim at the same time.

 

[Kajahtava]

If that's your identity, I'm fine with that.

Note that these people never claim that they are another sex, sport, they say they feel like the other sex.

 

[MotoH]

And I feel that:(see below)

I am a fish with feathers and hollow bones.

 

[Kajahtava]

I wouldn't contest that you feel like that, I would that you are though.

 

[MotoH]

What if I told you I was a very intelligent fish who could type?

 

[Kajahtava]

I would be sceptical to your being that?

 

[Office_Shredder]

From what I understand, the development of the brain and gender are based on hormones in the womb, and it's possible that the hormone level accidentally hits the right level so that the brain develops thinking the body will be one gender, and the body actually ends up having the other gender's sex organs.

 

[lisab]

MotoH, you keep saying gender is a black-and-white issue; do you have any references that back that up?

You haven't addressed the instances that others have posted here, such as testosterone resistance or people born with ambiguous genitalia. It's really not a black-and-white issue.

Here's a little bit of information from the National Institutes of Health:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001527.htm"

 

[Kajahtava]

That hypothesis has very shallow evidence.

Besides, gender is more cultural than you think, a variety of cultures in history really never made much of a fuzz of gender. Don't know if it's true, but I've been told that the Japanese word for 'homosexual' is a recent borrowing and only appears in technical literature, for the rest they have a word meaning 'homosexual act', but not 'homosexual person', also, apparently in Japanese you can use words you would usually use for girls on feminine guys and you would do the reverse with tomboys.

 

[MotoH]

MotoH, you keep saying gender is a black-and-white issue; do you have any references that back that up?

You haven't addressed the instances that others have posted here, such as testosterone resistance or people born with ambiguous genitalia. It's really not a black-and-white issue.

Here's a little bit of information from the National Institutes of Health:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001527.htm"

I'm not talking about people with wibbly wobbly mix and match genitals. I am talking about what you are born as for a normal person. You are either male or female when you are born. The rest is how your brain thinks. What I have a problem with is people who pretend/want to be something they aren't. That link you just sent further backs my point in that it is a mental issue. Just because a man wants to be a woman, and feels like a woman, doesn't make them a woman. They are still a man, only now they are a man who dresses like a girl and will get them made fun of for the rest of their life.

 

[Kajahtava]

I'm not talking about people with wibbly wobbly mix and match genitals. I am talking about what you are born as for a normal person. You are either male or female when you are born. The rest is how your brain thinks. What I have a problem with is people who pretend/want to be something they aren't. That link you just sent further backs my point in that it is a mental issue. Just because a man wants to be a woman, and feels like a woman, doesn't make them a woman. They are still a man, only now they are a man who dresses like a girl and will get them made fun of for the rest of their life.

Kay, how does that all apply to me being 'confused'?

I wouldn't deny that my body is pronounced masculine, the only desire I would have to switch to a more feminine one if it just happens to be a lot more beautiful?

It also has nothing to do with not wanting to be or praetending to be not what I am. I never contested that I have a masculine body, I just said I don't identify as having either a masculine or female soul and consider the distinction useless.

Also, these transgender people also don't praetent any thing, they won't deny having a female body for instance, but they will claim to have a male mind. And that's a thing you can hardly deny, you've admitted yourself in this post already that body and mind needn't congruate.

 

[MotoH]

A male mind. . .

I have Roger Moore's mind.

A mind is a mind, and aligns itself with its "chromosomes."

Just another excuse for them to justify what they do. I'll try and justify why I got an answer wrong on a test, but does that make the answer right? No it does not.

 

[Kajahtava]

A mind is a mind, and aligns itself with its "chromosomes."

And you already admitted in your praevious post that this needn't be true.

If you all it insanity or not is your own label to it, but you admitted it wasn't true per se.

Just another excuse for them to justify what they do. I'll try and justify why I got an answer wrong on a test, but does that make the answer right? No it does not.

What is this analogy you speak of?

 

[zomgwtf]

This thread all I can see going on really is a person trying to justify their own personal feelings to other people... maybe to feel better about themselves? I mean like if they feel like they have to change sex they are probably already quite insecure with themselves.

I don't care what any checklist says or some whack job wants to tell me, your born one sex and that's your sex. You want to complain that someone made an error somewhere (maybe it was those damned sperm cells, the one that won the race actually cheated.) then go see and psychologist and complain to them. If your born with a chromosomal disorder then that's a completely different bag of chips... I'm just talking about what NORMALLY occurs in the human race (in fact most organisms on this planet work based on two sexes...)
No just because some organisms can change their sex doesn't mean that humans should too or that when they try to it means diddly squat.

I hate how our modern world tries to accommodate every individual person. It should really only go to a certain 'normally acceptable' extent where you should expect to get accommodated for. When you go past that then your own your own, go live in the jungle or something clearly being HUMAN doesn't make you happy, personal problem and should not be in court systems or in debates over how to accomdate them in the washroom making it something public.
I'm really against the death penalty, but sometimes I really wish some people would just die off.

It seems that medical advances have evolutionally been a downfall for humans... I'm sure the people with these thoughts would just die off, not bothering the world with their non-sense 'I feel like a man' or 'I feel like a girlll'.

 

[Kajahtava]

This thread all I can see going on really is a person trying to justify their own personal feelings to other people... maybe to feel better about themselves? I mean like if they feel like they have to change sex they are probably already quite insecure with themselves.

I don't care what any checklist says or some whack job wants to tell me, your born one sex and that's your sex. You want to complain that someone made an error somewhere (maybe it was those damned sperm cells, the one that won the race actually cheated.) then go see and psychologist and complain to them. If your born with a chromosomal disorder then that's a completely different bag of chips... I'm just talking about what NORMALLY occurs in the human race (in fact most organisms on this planet work based on two sexes...)
No just because some organisms can change their sex doesn't mean that humans should too or that when they try to it means diddly squat.

I hate how our modern world tries to accommodate every individual person. It should really only go to a certain 'normally acceptable' extent where you should expect to get accommodated for. When you go past that then your own your own, go live in the jungle or something clearly being HUMAN doesn't make you happy, personal problem and should not be in court systems or in debates over how to accomdate them in the washroom making it something public.
I'm really against the death penalty, but sometimes I really wish some people would just die off.

It seems that medical advances have evolutionally been a downfall for humans... I'm sure the people with these thoughts would just die off, not bothering the world with their non-sense 'I feel like a man' or 'I feel like a girlll'.

Okay, let's just assume that's true. Is this bad too:

Should we stay to our born racial phenotype if we don't like it?

Is this also atrocious:

Or this:

If any of those is fine with you, then where's the line? How much of our phenotype are we allowed to change from what we've born with because we don't like it hmm? We're born naked? We're born animals. Why aren't we half baked to praetend that we aren't and put some second skin over it?

Are we allowed to shave our beards? Isn't that a little bit changing gender? This guy thinks so. For the record by the way, I have no ambition to change my gender, it's like changing a hair colour to me. Sure, there are times I wonder how another hair colour suits me, but really, I 'identify' no more as male then I 'identity' as 'a person with black hair'.

 

[DanP]

You haven't addressed the instances that others have posted here, such as testosterone resistance o[/URL]

If I would develop testosterone resistance, I would shoot myself.

 

[Kajahtava]

No you won't.

 

[DanP]

No you won't.

You are right. I would shoot anybody telling me that I would not do it first And yes, I wont, because it's impossible for me to develop testosterone resistance :P It simply can't happen.

 

[Kajahtava]

I more mean, that if you develop it you shouldn't care that much any more about manliness.

 

[DanP]

I more mean, that if you develop it you shouldn't care that much any more about manliness.

Then hopefully, one of my friends will be a gentleman and will put me out of my misery :P

 

[Kajahtava]

A gentlemen doesn't put ladies out of their misery. He uses their misery to talk them into going to bed with him

 

[DanP]

A gentlemen doesn't put ladies out of their misery. He uses their misery to talk them into going to bed with him

That is called gay :P