Flux: Total, Per-Area, Vector & Density Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of flux in various contexts, including its definitions, mathematical representations, and distinctions between total flux and flux density. Participants explore theoretical aspects, applications in physics, and the implications of terminology used in different scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that flux can be defined as a surface integral of a vector field with a unit normal vector, leading to total flux through a surface.
  • Others argue that dividing total flux by the area yields flux density, which can sometimes be expressed as a vector quantity, though this varies by context.
  • A participant questions whether total flux can be expressed as a vector and seeks clarification on the terminology used for different types of flux, such as mass flow rate and volumetric flow rate.
  • There is discussion about the meaning of terms like "flux density" and whether it applies uniformly across different contexts, such as electric and magnetic fields.
  • Some participants note that flux density may refer to the original vector field or to a scalar quantity derived from the surface integral, leading to potential confusion in terminology.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the average flux density over a surface and how it relates to the original vector field.
  • A participant raises a specific example related to heat flux and questions the rigorous terminology that should be applied in that context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and applications of flux and flux density, indicating that multiple competing interpretations exist without a clear consensus on terminology or conceptual clarity.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions of flux and flux density, particularly in relation to their application in various physical contexts. The discussion highlights the potential for ambiguity in terminology and the need for careful consideration of context when discussing these concepts.

Rasalhague
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Am I right in thinking that flux can mean either a surface integral of the dot product of a vector field with a unit vector perpendicular to a given surface (the total flux through a surface of area A):

[tex]\int \mathbf{F} \cdot \hat{\mathbf{N}} dA,[/tex]

(e.g. electric flux, magnetic flux), or such a total divided by the area of the surface:

[tex]\frac{\int \mathbf{F} \cdot \hat{\mathbf{N}} dA}{A},[/tex]

(e.g. volumetric flux)? The latter kind of flux seems sometimes to be expressed as a vector quantity, as in the Poynting vector and heat flux (also called heat flux density), although some sources only call the magnitude of the Poynting vector energy flux. Is this just a matter of convention or convenience? What happens if the surface isn't flat; which direction does the vector point? Have I even got the right formula for defining it? Is total flux ever expressed as a vector?

I gather that total flux, in the relavant contexts, may be called mass flow rate and volumetric flow rate, while the per-area flux is called mass flux and volumetric flux. Are these terms limited to certain instances of flux in the broader sense? What are electric and magnetic flow rate (are they synonymous with electric and magnetic flux, as normally defined, or do they refer to something else)?

I read in Wikipedia that energy flux can refer to either kind of flux, total or per-unit-area, the latter sometimes being called flux density, and I've seen the Poynting vector called an energy flux density vector. Does the term "flux density" applied to the magnetic B field have the same meaning as "flux density" when it's the per-unit-area kind of energy flux, or is it a flux density in the sense that Davis and Snider use the term in Introduction to Vector Analysis, § 3.7, where they define flux density of the flux

[tex]\mathbf{F} \cdot \hat{\mathbf{N}} ds[/tex]

as the function F, or does flux density have some other sense when applied to the magnetic B field?

What is flow rate density? Why is density used for a "per unit area" quantity, as opposed to pressure; is it just a linguistic quirk/convention?

Are there general, unambiguous terms for these concepts? Are there other uses of the words flux and flux density, etc. in physics that I haven't covered.
 
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Flux is indeed a surface integral of a vector field, and is hence a scalar quantity, associated to a surface (actually, to a flux tube).

If you divide by the surface, you get a flux density, and in fact, the correct description of a flux density is nothing else but the original vector field you integrated over the surface.

However, people are sometimes sloppy with names, and sometimes they omit "density".
 
vanesch said:
If you divide by the surface, you get a flux density, and in fact, the correct description of a flux density is nothing else but the original vector field you integrated over the surface.

So is flux density effectively synonymous with vector field (and, in that case, why is the electric D field called electric flux density rather than the E field, given that electric flux is a surface integral of the E field), or can flux density also mean the scalar quantity obtained by diving the surface integral of a vector field by the total area of the surface?

[tex]\frac{\int \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{\hat{N}} dA}{A}[/tex]

This isn't the same as the original vector field F. It's a scalar and depends on the orientation of the surface at each point. Are you saying that this scalar quantity is sometimes loosely called flux density although the term flux density is more correctly applied to the vector field F itself?
 
Last edited:
The flux density is

[tex] \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{\hat{n}}[/tex]

while

[tex] \frac{\int \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{\hat{n}}dA}{A}[/tex]

is the average flux density over the surface
 
csco said:
The flux density is

[tex] \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{\hat{n}}[/tex]

while

[tex] \frac{\int \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathbf{\hat{n}}dA}{A}[/tex]

is the average flux density over the surface

Yes, and if you want to summarize the flux density "for all local surfaces with all possible orientations", you're back to the vector field itself.
 
Thanks to you both for the answers. So, in the following example,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_flux

if we were to use more rigorous terms, would the integral be called heat "flux", and the original vector field heat "flux density" when conceived of as a scalar valued function with values [tex]\mathbf{F} \cdot \hat{\mathbf{n}}[/tex] at each point on a given surface? Is this vector field [tex]\mathbf{\phi_{q}}[/tex] the gradient of a scalar temperature field? The illustation shows it orthogonal to a surface though, as if maybe [tex]\mathbf{\phi_{q}}[/tex] itself is only defined relative to some specified surface, but maybe that's just a coincidence.
 

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