Fourier transform of RF signal with a prism ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of using a prism-like device to decompose RF signals into their frequency components, similar to how visible light is separated by a prism. Participants explore the theoretical and practical aspects of this idea, including the nature of RF signals, modulation, and potential methods for frequency separation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a prism can decompose RF signals similarly to visible light, as both are electromagnetic waves.
  • Others argue that RF signals, particularly unmodulated carriers, typically represent a single frequency rather than a range, complicating the analogy with visible light.
  • A participant mentions the concept of dispersion and suggests that a material with a varying refractive index could be engineered for RF frequencies, possibly using metamaterials.
  • Historical context is provided with references to early experiments by Hertz, who created a large prism for RF signals, indicating practical challenges due to the size of RF wavelengths.
  • Some participants discuss the role of modulation in RF signals, noting that modulation introduces bandwidth and sidebands, which could be relevant for frequency separation.
  • Questions are raised about the feasibility of using transformers to extract different frequency components from a modulated RF signal.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of modulation, with some asserting that modulation does indeed create a range of frequencies, while others maintain that it results in a single spot frequency with varying characteristics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether RF signals can be treated like visible light in terms of frequency decomposition. There is no consensus on the feasibility of using prism-like devices for RF signals, and the discussion includes competing interpretations of modulation and its effects on frequency representation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the size of devices needed for RF wavelengths and the complexity of modulated signals, which may not align with the simpler model of light decomposition.

univector
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Fourier transform of RF signal with a "prism"?

We can use a prism to decompose visible light into components of different frequencies. This is a Fourier transform by nature. For an ideal prism, the energy is conserved in the process.

How about RF signals? There is no fundamental difference between an RF signal and visible light -- they are both EM waves. Is there a device/circuit that can separate the RF signal into different frequencies spatially just like a prism to visible light?

Thanks.
 
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A prism has the effect it does because the speed of light (refractive index) inside the material varies according to the frequency. This is called dispersion. All you have to do is find a material where the refractive index continues to vary into the radio range, and make a triangle out of it.

Alternatively you could probably simulate such a material by making a metamaterial, which would probably be fairly easy for radio wavelengths since the element size would be quite large.

Actually, far more exotic devices have been built, such as lenses for gamma rays and neutrons.

So my answer is yes, it is definitely possible, but I have not personally heard of someone doing it.
 
The ionosphere is the Nature's device for dispersing RF.

A bit of a problem with RF is that the wavelength is large, so dispersing devices will need to be large as well.

Hertz in what was probably the very first experiments with RF built a prism made of asphalt, which weighed half a ton, and he was able to detect refraction. He used centimeter waves, longer waves would have made that completely impractical.
 
univector said:
We can use a prism to decompose visible light into components of different frequencies. This is a Fourier transform by nature. For an ideal prism, the energy is conserved in the process.

How about RF signals? There is no fundamental difference between an RF signal and visible light -- they are both EM waves. Is there a device/circuit that can separate the RF signal into different frequencies spatially just like a prism to visible light?

Thanks.

there is a difference and something you haven't appeared to consider...
Visible (white) light is a collection of frequencies ( wavelengths) and can be split into its components
A transmitted RF signal ( unmodulated carrier) is generally a single spot frequency ( with some given bandwidth) you cannot split it up ...
that would be the same as taking the blue or red light that comes out of a prism and trying to split it further ... you can't its still either blue or red

You can use a spectrum analyser and look at a section of spectrum say 100MHz to 1000 MHz and look at all the individual frequencies that are being transmitted in that range that are within the receive capability of the analyser.
You can look at an individual freq and see its bandwidth, its sidebands ( due to the modulation etc) its signal strength etc

Dave
 
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Is it possible to use a series of transformers to extract signal components of different frequencies simultaneously?
 
what signal components ?
did you understand what I wrote in my last post ? :smile:

Dave
 
Hi Dave, I was thinking about a modulated RF signal, whose frequency is not a spot but a range. How do we separate the RF signal into different frequency components? I suspect a series of transformers may do the job, but am not sure.
 
Its not a spot freq because of the modulation, that is, its the modulation that gives the signal "x" amount of bandwidth ... so there isn't a range of RF frequencies being combined.
for AM( Amplitude Modulation) its a spot frequency that has a changing amplitude
( yes sidebands are produced but they are endeavoured to be kept to a minimum)
FM ( Frequency Modulation) is a spot frequency that is varies slightly with the modulation

if its a modulated signal, then you put it through a demodulator to recover the modulation.
That modulation may be voice, data etc

in the most basic radio signal demodulator, say an AM transmission, we use a diode to detect and recover the audio from the RF signal have a look at http://www.engr.uky.edu/~gedney/courses/ee521/notes/Set2_Diode.pdf
it's just one of 100's of links in google for demodulating/recovering the audio etc

cheers
Dave
 
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davenn said:
Its not a spot freq because of the modulation, that is, its the modulation that gives the signal "x" amount of bandwidth ... so there isn't a range of RF frequencies being combined.

That seems self-contradictory. Any modulation results in a range of RF frequencies; that's what "bandwidth" means.

for AM( Amplitude Modulation) its a spot frequency that has a changing amplitude

Which means it is a range of RF frequencies.
 

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