News Is Free Speech Being Confused with Hate Speech in Schools?

[DR13]

So I don't know if many of you know but a few days back there was a teacher suspended from a school in Howell, Michigan for kicking two kids out of class. One of them was wearing a confederate belt buckle. The school is in an area that used to be a central point for the KKK as recent as the 80s so the teacher wanted the student to remove it for sensitivity's sake. Well, it didn't quite end there. The student with the belt buckle and one of his friends argued that he should not have to remove it because he thought it was no different than a recent event at the school where kids wore purple to raise awareness of anti-gay bullying. The local union says the student also made "inappropriate and offensive statements regarding gay students."

Here is an article on it. And in the article there is a video of a 14 year old gay student who gives a speech on the issue: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20101115/us_yblog_thelookout/gay-michigan-student-defends-suspended-teacher"

So what do you guys think? I think that the teacher should not have been suspended. First off, these kids were obviously causing a disruption in class. I have seen kids being sent out for much worse. It is not like the teacher hit the kids. He didnt even try to suspend them or take further action. He just kicked them out. A teacher should have the right to manage his own classroom. Also, more on the point of the issue, I don't have a problem with a teacher getting mad at kids for promoting a way of thought that is clearly immoral. It is not like the student was wearing the belt buckle as a symbol of southern pride (again, this happened in Michigan) he was wearing it to make an offensive statement. To offer some proof to you that this was meant as an offensize statement here is a quote from the article, "Two years ago, a group of students were investigated by the Department of Justice for starting a Facebook group that used the Confederate flag as its profile photo and featured hate speech. Two students were suspended." Schools should be safe havens from bullying and abuse.

 

[G037H3]

Hate speech doesn't exist.

End of story. :)

it's a belt buckle, if people can't handle a belt buckle, they need to grow up

maybe the student has a preference for state power over federalism

saying something isn't assaulting someone

harassing someone is different, but calmly saying something or defending yourself verbally is not harassment

 

[Evo]

Federal Appeals court has ruled against displaying confederate symbols on school grounds.

http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/324/324.F3d.1246.-.02-14931.html

 

[DR13]

Hate speech doesn't exist.

End of story. :)

it's a belt buckle, if people can't handle a belt buckle, they need to grow up

maybe the student has a preference for state power over federalism

saying something isn't assaulting someone

harassing someone is different, but calmly saying something or defending yourself verbally is not harassment

1. I don't know how you can say hate speech doesn't exist. That is being extremely naieve. Look at neo nazis. I don't think anyone can deny that they exhibit hate speech (whether or not the hate speech should be allowed is a different debate, but it obviosly exists).
2. It is not that people can't handle the belt buckle it is that the belt buckle is a symbol of hatred and oppression towards certain groups.
3. Really? You think that this student who was saying hateful things towards gays was wearing the belt buckle to show a preference for state power over federalism? Stop being intentially dumb (sorry, I know dumb isn't a good word but I can't think of another one right now).
4. When did I say anything about assaulting people? And yes, harassment is different but are you saying that it should be allowed in schools? Kids should feel safe and welcomed in school. Not fearful of their health.
5. These kids were not calmly defending themselves. They were causing a disturbance in the class by shouting homophobic remarks.

Federal Appeals court has ruled against displaying confederate symbols on school grounds.

http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/324/324.F3d.1246.-.02-14931.html

Then I wonder how they can suspend the teacher. Hopefully the union finds this ruling.

 

[Evo]

Then I wonder how they can suspend the teacher. Hopefully the union finds this ruling.

If her lawyer isn't brain dead, he should have this. Obviously what the teacher did was right. Previous rulings are in her support. The school acted inappropriately due to ignorance and fear.

 

[JaredJames]

Hate speech doesn't exist.

You are sadly misguided.

This isn't a case when you can claim "it is only hate speech if you disagree with it". This isn't like discussing a moral value where you can claim it is only moral if you feel it is.

Hate speech is clearly defined:

Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.[1][2] In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic.[3] In some countries, a victim of hate speech may seek redress under civil law, criminal law, or both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion is wrong is freedom of speech. It is a person voicing their opinion.

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion doctors should be killed is hate speech. You are inciting violence towards the doctors.

There is a distinct difference between voicing your opinion on a subject and spouting how you wish [insert denomination here] should be harmed / killed. You can't rationalise the latter and it has no place in civilised society.

 

[Pattonias]

Is stating that wearing a belt-buckle with a confederate flag is similar to a anti-bullying campaign a form of hate speech?

Sounds like the school board is getting a little touchy...

 

[Hepth]

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion is wrong is freedom of speech. It is a person voicing their opinion.

A person on a street corner preaching how they feel abortion doctors should be killed is hate speech. You are inciting violence towards the doctors.

What if you are not explicitly inciting violence, but preaching that those who did were right? (Id assume its still hate speech.)
What if you are not explicitly inciting violence, but wear an emblem of those who did to show your support? (I'm not sure, seems like a grey area)

 

[russ_watters]

While that may be interesting to discuss from a theoretical perspective, Hepth (and jardenjames), it doesn't really have much to do with this specific case. A student's right to freedom of speech is much more restricted than is typical in other settings. The speech/expression doesn't have to be much more than legitimately disruptive in order to be censurable by the school.

The Confederate Battle Flag is a divisive symbol at best and at worst is overtly racist and rebellious.

 

[1MileCrash]

The confederate flag is generally more of a symbol for southern heritage.

 

[russ_watters]

The confederate flag is generally more of a symbol for southern heritage.

That's true only insofar as the "heritage" the flag represents is treason/insurrection and oppression. Recognize, this is the battle flag of the Confederate Army we're talking about - a symbol of the Confederate side of the war itself.

 

[1MileCrash]

That's true only insofar as the "heritage" the flag represents is treason/insurrection and oppression. Recognize, this is the battle flag of the Confederate Army we're talking about - a symbol of the Confederate side of the war itself.

Simply put, you just have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Char. Limit]

While that may be interesting to discuss from a theoretical perspective, Hepth (and jardenjames), it doesn't really have much to do with this specific case. A student's right to freedom of speech is much more restricted than is typical in other settings. The speech/expression doesn't have to be much more than legitimately disruptive in order to be censurable by the school.

The Confederate Battle Flag is a divisive symbol at best and at worst is overtly racist and rebellious.

This. While I wouldn't call the belt-buckle hate speech (come on people, it's a belt buckle. They aren't even visible if you're sitting down in a desk...), I would call his offensive comments against gay people hate speech. And also, while he's in school, he needs to obey the rules of the school officials, which includes teachers. This isn't a moral problem at all.

Which is good, because I hate moral problems.

 

[JaredJames]

For the record Russ (and possibly Char. Limit), I was simply defining hate speech for Goethe who denied it's existence.

Confederate Flag, Nazi Swastika or any other perceived 'symbol of evil' isn't something I would see as a problem (specific circumstances aside - walking through Poland with a Swastika isn't appropriate for example). I would be moe concerned with the comments about gay people.

 

[Char. Limit]

For the record Russ (and possibly Char. Limit), I was simply defining hate speech for Goethe who denied it's existence.

Confederate Flag, Nazi Swastika or any other perceived 'symbol of evil' isn't something I would see as a problem (specific circumstances aside - walking through Poland with a Swastika isn't appropriate for example). I would be moe concerned with the comments about gay people.

Oh, don't worry about me. I was just using the bold line in Russ's post as a stepping stone to state my own opinion.

 

[JaredJames]

As far as I'm concerned, the teacher has authority in the classroom (or anywhere on the school premises).

 

[russ_watters]

Simply put, you just have no idea what you're talking about.

could you be more specific...?

 

[DR13]

The confederate flag is generally more of a symbol for southern heritage.

Again, this happened in Howell, Michigan (in case you are from another country, Michigan is way north). The most logical reason to be wearing a confederate belt buckle in Howell would be in reference to the KKK. The KKK has been based there and had an active membership as recently as the 80s. So this is not about heritage. It is about hate.

 

[1MileCrash]

could you be more specific...?

The confederate flag is no more a divisive symbol than any state flag.

When the confederate flag is displayed it is a symbol of the south, nothing more. It doesn't mean "grrr, slavery was right!" or other such nonsense.

If you are truly this confused by the symbolism of the confederate flag, why aren't you actively pushing for the removal of mississippi, georgia, south carolina, etc's state flag? They are all based on the confederate flag. Such a divisive and hateful state flag should not be allowed to stand!

What about the hundreds of courthouses that fly it along with the american flag? What were those citizens and politicians thinking? Flying such a symbol of hate in a place like that?

I am sorry the symbol is wildly abused in your area. This would be as ridiculous as brits viewing the american flag as a symbol treason, rebellion, and war rather than just a symbol of the area and the people who live there amd their heritage.

Just as there is a lot more to american heritage than the revolutionary war, there is a lot more to southern heritage than just the civil war. If you can't understand that then I am sorry, i can't help you.

 

[czelaya]

The confederate flag is no more a divisive symbol than any state flag.

When the confederate flag is displayed it is a symbol of the south, nothing more. It doesn't mean "grrr, slavery was right!" or other such nonsense.

If you are truly this confused by the symbolism of the confederate flag, why aren't you actively pushing for the removal of mississippi, georgia, south carolina, etc's state flag? They are all based on the confederate flag. Such a divisive and hateful state flag should not be allowed to stand!

What about the hundreds of courthouses that fly it along with the american flag? What were those citizens and politicians thinking? Flying such a symbol of hate in a place like that?

I am sorry the symbol is wildly abused in your area. This would be as ridiculous as brits viewing the american flag as a symbol treason, rebellion, and war rather than just a symbol of the area and the people who live there amd their heritage.

Just as there is a lot more to american heritage than the revolutionary war, there is a lot more to southern heritage than just the civil war. If you can't understand that then I am sorry, i can't help you.

I agree completely.

When I was an undergraduate I had a friend, Ryan, which displayed the confederate flag on his laptop.

Being Hispanic, I was always told by other ethnicities that it was sign of hatred. I never bothered to ask Ryan why he freely displayed it. Put simply we always studied and he was always very helpful with homework and test problems. He seemed very comfortable with me and we became good friends that semester.

One day, a fellow Hispanic friend of mine asked me why I talked to that individual since he displayed the confederate flag. So, I asked Ryan. He's answer was simply about tradition and heritage of the south. He was proud of his family legacy. Nothing more.

What's perplexing is that I realized many of my ethnic friends find it groosly offensive but they themselves don't understand anything about the meaning of the flag. Just because other groups have linked it to unacceptable social behavior doesn't mean that's what the flag stands for.

I have no issue with it.

 

[readaynrand]

All speech should be allowed, as long as it is only speech, and not objective threats (like "give me your money, or I'll kill you").

 

[BobG]

Lost in this discussion is the fact that no disciplinary action was taken against the girl that wore the Confederate flag belt buckle. She removed the belt buckle, so it's not known what the consequences would have been for refusing to do so.

The belt buckle incident was the instigating factor for the discussion (i.e. the hate speech) that resulted in two other students being suspended (not the girl wearing the belt buckle).

A better story about what happened:

http://www.livingstondaily.com/assets/pdf/C6166296111.PDF

http://www.livingstondaily.com/assets/pdf/C6166315111.PDF

Even by McDowell's side of the story, I disagree with his actions regarding the main character in the incident. The student's comments were an honest statement of his beliefs. He didn't resort to insults, hyperbole, or rhetoric in stating his beliefs. The comments weren't totally out of the blue. The girl had to remove a belt buckle because the teacher felt the meaning behind the belt buckle was offensive, while the teacher wore a T-shirt whose meaning the student found offensive. The student's comments were about the conflicting standards; not comments aimed at offending gays.

I'm not really concerned with the second student being disciplined because it sounds like he was just being a smart aleck. Even so, suspension might have been extreme for the offense.

While the Confederate flag wasn't the reason for the students' suspension, it does make interesting background, since there seems to some indication (at least from McDowell) that the flag was routinely banned from display on school grounds specifically because of its use on a hate website created by that particular school's students.

So it does raise an interesting side question. Can the context of use determine whether a symbol is hate speech or not. In other words, while the normal interpretation of the flag may not (or may, considering its history) be hate speech, does the specific intent it was used for make it hate speech?

You asking me whether your dog can mate with my ***** has a completely different meaning depending on whether you're referring to my dog or my girlfriend. (And our website has definitely made its own decision about which you were referring to.)

 

[DR13]

What some people here arent getting is that the belt buckle in this instance was not taken as a symbol of heritage or southern pride. Rather it was taken as statement of hate. When a teacher sees a symbol of hate in his classroom he is within his power to have the student remove it. Maybe the heritage argument would make some sense if this took place in Alabama. But people, this took place in a Michigan city that was recently a hot bed of KKK activity.

 

[Al68]

Maybe the heritage argument would make some sense if this took place in Alabama. But people, this took place in a Michigan city that was recently a hot bed of KKK activity.

While I'm no fan of the Confederate flag, I don't get this argument. Should the actions of the local KKK dictate local school policy? Should we prohibit students from wearing crucifixes because of their "association" with some local hate group?

Should only students in Alabama be allowed to display the confederate flag? No KKK in Alabama?

 

[DR13]

While I'm no fan of the Confederate flag, I don't get this argument. Should the actions of the local KKK dictate local school policy? Should we prohibit students from wearing crucifixes because of their "association" with some local hate group?

Should only students in Alabama be allowed to display the confederate flag? No KKK in Alabama?

You are misunderstanding my point. If the confederate flag is for heritage purposes I don't mind. So in Alabama, it would be understandable for someone to wear it to display one's heritage. However, in Michigan this is not the case. This was taken to be a reference to the KKK. A group of, let's be honest, murderous bigots. By the way, if someone were wearing the belt buckle in Alabama in reference to the KKK then I would still have a problem with it.

 

[JaredJames]

While I'm no fan of the Confederate flag, I don't get this argument. Should the actions of the local KKK dictate local school policy? Should we prohibit students from wearing crucifixes because of their "association" with some local hate group?

Should only students in Alabama be allowed to display the confederate flag? No KKK in Alabama?

What they're trying to say is simple Al68. If this student was in a southern country then yes, it could be considered a case of heritage. But this student is in Michigan which isn't a southern state and where there has been recent KKK activity.

You have to weigh things up. Which is more likely, the student living in a northern state with no apparent connection to the south is wearing the flag for heritage or is it more likely that they are wearing it in connection to the recent KKK activity within the state?

It could very well be that it is a heritage thing, but given the KKK involvment in that state, you're going to consider that connection before any other.

 

[BobG]

What some people here arent getting is that the belt buckle in this instance was not taken as a symbol of heritage or southern pride. Rather it was taken as statement of hate. When a teacher sees a symbol of hate in his classroom he is within his power to have the student remove it. Maybe the heritage argument would make some sense if this took place in Alabama. But people, this took place in a Michigan city that was recently a hot bed of KKK activity.

How far does that go?

For instance, if a group burns crosses in people's yards, I think it's safe to say they're using the cross as a form of hate speech.

Does using it as a form of hate speech turn the cross into a symbol of hate?

Or can it still be used provided the person using it says the right words?

Or do we only ban crosses larger than a certain size, since it would be unlikely for a person to be so religious that they carried an 8 foot cross around with them wherever they went?

In other words, context matters and the cross is banned in situations where any "reasonable" person would know the person intended the cross to be used as a symbol of hate. Not necessarily beyond the shadow of doubt, but what a "reasonable" person would believe the symbol meant given the local environment.

I think the context of the belt buckle might not be quite as clear as an 8 foot cross and a can of gasoline in the back of a pick-up truck, but I also think it's hard to interpret this a symbol of Southern pride or heritage. It's possible (perhaps the girl just moved to Michigan from Alabama), but it's certainly not the most likely reason. A more believable reason is that the girl wore the buckle because she thought it looked cool and may not have associated any meaning to the buckle at all (not enough meaning to stand up to the teacher and object to removing the buckle, anyway).

I think the only two likely situations are:

1) The buckle was worn for no reason at all.
2) The buckle was worn as a symbol of hate.

The much less likely situation would be:

3) The buckle was worn as a symbol of pride in her own Southern heritage.

 

[JaredJames]

I think the only two likely situations are:

1) The buckle was worn for no reason at all.
2) The buckle was worn as a symbol of hate.

The much less likely situation would be:

3) The buckle was worn as a symbol of pride in her own Southern heritage.

Agreed, although I'd be swinging more for number 1 than the others.

 

[WhoWee]

Unless I missed it, has anyone else wondered about the circumstances or details of a 9 year old being bullied - for being gay - that lead to a suicide attempt?

How does someone become identified as gay/straight/bi (whatever?) at SUCH a young age?

As for the belt buckle - perhaps it had some kind of secret (local) meaning - IMO typically, the Confederate flag means "Southern".

Sometimes the easiest way to determine the "meaning" in a situation like this is to ASK THE PERSON wearing the item. If someone has gone to the trouble to select such an accessory - they would (more than likely) want to explain their "reasoning".

On a side note (my wife is an educator) if a student tells a teacher to go "F" themselves (or something of equal value) are they within their rights of free speech? Just as common are students who routinely talk on their cell phones in class - they also cite "free speech" and are rarely challenged. Again, we'll label this as opinion as I can't prove the events - only asking for an opinion of PF members.

 

[Al68]

You are misunderstanding my point. If the confederate flag is for heritage purposes I don't mind. So in Alabama, it would be understandable for someone to wear it to display one's heritage. However, in Michigan this is not the case. This was taken to be a reference to the KKK. A group of, let's be honest, murderous bigots. By the way, if someone were wearing the belt buckle in Alabama in reference to the KKK then I would still have a problem with it.

"Taken by" who to be reference to the KKK? I assumed your point referred to whether a student should be permitted to display the flag, not whether you would mind or not.

But if you have the same standard for Alabama as Michigan, I must have misunderstood your point.

 

[BobG]

On a side note (my wife is an educator) if a student tells a teacher to go "F" themselves (or something of equal value) are they within their rights of free speech? Just as common are students who routinely talk on their cell phones in class - they also cite "free speech" and are rarely challenged. Again, we'll label this as opinion as I can't prove the events - only asking for an opinion of PF members.

Actually, this was the main question asked in the original post. Except the student wasn't as disrepectful or disruptive as the original post indicated (in fact, the person with the belt buckle wasn't even involved in the discussion, nor was she suspended). The story directly from the school and directly from the teacher give a much more accurate description of events.

The student questioned the double standard of a teacher requesting a student to remove apparel the teacher found personally offensive while the teacher was wearing apparel that that particular student found personally offensive. Expecting a civil, rational explanation instead of a suspension wasn't an unreasonable expectation.

I'm not saying the teacher was wrong for supporting a cause, but once he chose to wear the purple T-shirt, he was a player; not an observor or referee or superior; but a participant that should have conducted the discussion on an equal footing as the students he was discussing it with. In fact, the wear of the T-shirt provoked discussions with the students about it in the teacher's other classes, as well. There was something about this particular student's comments that got the teacher's goat.

 

[Al68]

Which is more likely, the student living in a northern state with no apparent connection to the south is wearing the flag for heritage or is it more likely that they are wearing it in connection to the recent KKK activity within the state?

It could very well be that it is a heritage thing, but given the KKK involvment in that state, you're going to consider that connection before any other.

I would never consider it myself, any more than I would consider a crucifix to be a connection to the KKK because of local KKK activity. It could be, but my first instinct would be that it represents the Confederacy, since that's what it's a symbol of.

And from what I gather, the "recent KKK activity" was decades ago in a nearby town. Seriously? That justifies an assumption of association with the KKK instead of the obvious association with what the symbol actually is?

And I don't understand how a student has "no apparent connection to the south" if they're displaying the symbol of the Confederacy.

But for all I know, the Confederate flag is displayed exclusively by KKK followers in that part of Michigan. That seems rather unlikely to me, but I'm not familiar with that area's specific trends.

 

[Jasongreat]

What they're trying to say is simple Al68. If this student was in a southern country then yes, it could be considered a case of heritage. But this student is in Michigan which isn't a southern state and where there has been recent KKK activity.

You have to weigh things up. Which is more likely, the student living in a northern state with no apparent connection to the south is wearing the flag for heritage or is it more likely that they are wearing it in connection to the recent KKK activity within the state?

It could very well be that it is a heritage thing, but given the KKK involvment in that state, you're going to consider that connection before any other.

Is it impossible that the student moved from the south to michigan? Or that the students family came from the south? Possibly a relative that fought and died for the south? It seems to me that it is possible that any of the above could be the case and would be a case of heritage. Even if none of those are the case, I see flying the confederate flag as a statement about state rights, or more precisely, as supporting the original intent of the framers. This country was a voluntary association and is what the confederates were fighting for, they were not fighting so they could turn the north, or the territories, into slave owning states. They were on the right side according to my reading of history.

I think that the intent of the wearer should have more bearing on this discussion, than the perceived intent that the teacher concluded was the students intent. As Al pointed out, the student should be judged on her actions, not the actions of others who use that flag for nefarious purposes, or we're going to be banning korans, crucifixes, and an infinite number of other objects, if all one has to say is so and so used that for this undesired purpose so all others who follow have to mean the same thing by displaying such and such.

Bob hit the nail right on the head, the student wearing the buckle took it off and was not suspended. The students who were suspended, were suspended because of the debate that took place after the initial incident. Thats the last thing we need in schools, spirited debate. ;) Imo, this is a case of free speech being supressed, the teacher can wear potentially disruptive clothing, the students can't even discuss it. If I remember correctly, a few of the same members who are taking the side of the school in this thread, are the same who in another speech thread(also in michigan), made the point that free speech is there to protect the speech that the majority disagree with, more so than the speech most agree with, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[norrin.radd]

The confederate flag is currently used a symbol of country pride and the love of small town affairs. It has little to do with racism, just as a student wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt has little to do with marxism.

@Evo,
I believe this is the perceived meaning of the symbol, both to the student and to her peers.

 

[Evo]

The confederate flag is currently used a symbol of country pride and the love of small town affairs. It has little to do with racism, just as a student wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt has little to do with marxism.

Funny! Now back that up!

 

[russ_watters]

When the confederate flag is displayed it is a symbol of the south, nothing more. It doesn't mean "grrr, slavery was right!" or other such nonsense.

No? What does "the south" stand for, then? What heritage, specifically, is that flag meant to remind us of?

If you are truly this confused by the symbolism of the confederate flag, why aren't you actively pushing for the removal of mississippi, georgia, south carolina, etc's state flag? They are all based on the confederate flag. Such a divisive and hateful state flag should not be allowed to stand!

I'm not confused nor am I "actively pushing for" anything. But remaining state flags based on the Confederate flag should be re-designed and many have been. The issue of Georgia's flag is instructive because it is a clear demonstration of precisely my point:

The state flag used from 1956 to 2001 (see below) featured a prominent Confederate Battle Flag, which some residents found offensive due to its historical use by the Confederate States of America and its contemporary use as a symbol by various white supremacy groups. People found it offensive because the emblem was originally adopted not during the American Civil War period but in 1956 during the height of the fight for desegregation during the Civil Rights Movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state )
In other words, the flag was designed during the civil rights movement as a reaction against it. The Confederate Battle Flag was chosen precisely because of the "heritage" of racism it represents. And it has since been changed because of the recognition that it is wrong to display it.

Just as there is a lot more to american heritage than the revolutionary war, there is a lot more to southern heritage than just the civil war. If you can't understand that then I am sorry, i can't help you.

You keep asserting it, but you have yet to explain it. If there is more to Southern heritage represented by the Confederate Battle Flag, then tell me what that heritage is! What good things is the Confederate Battle Flag a symbol of?

Don't just tell me I'm wrong, explain!

 

[WhoWee]

Just out of curiosity, should a student (or teacher) be permitted to wear a belt buckle displaying this image?
http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaypride/p/rainbowflag.htm
What if just one person finds it offensive?

 

[1MileCrash]

You are misunderstanding my point. If the confederate flag is for heritage purposes I don't mind. So in Alabama, it would be understandable for someone to wear it to display one's heritage. However, in Michigan this is not the case. This was taken to be a reference to the KKK. A group of, let's be honest, murderous bigots. By the way, if someone were wearing the belt buckle in Alabama in reference to the KKK then I would still have a problem with it.

My question is - why is the confederate flag taken as a reference to the KKK? Please- answer me that. I really want to know the source of this.

Yeah, you're going to find some with the confederate flag too, but you'll find them using our good ol' American flag much more commonly, and you'll find them using the christian flag by FAR the most often.

If I were in michigan, and I saw a confederate flag hanging from someone's porch, my immediate thought would be that they have family or are originally from the south. The idea that they meaning to display "hate" (of what, no one has seemed to clear up yet - could be hate for brownies as far as I know.) would never enter my mind. Then again, I actually know what the flag means.

In all honesty, this makes about the exact same sense as saying the buddists that lived thousands of years ago that made a practice out of using the swastika were in fact, Nazis.

 

[russ_watters]

The confederate flag is currently used a symbol of country pride and the love of small town affairs. It has little to do with racism, just as a student wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt has little to do with marxism.

Insofar as Che Guevara t-shirts are a fad, often with little or no connection to the history, I agree with you. But that doesn't make it any more right than wearing a Nazi emblem because one likes the pretty red color or a Dallas Cowboys bumper sticker because you like the pretty silver and blue star.

 

[BobG]

One thing that bugs me about McDowell's reply.

The letter starts out very professional and exactly what you'd expect from a college educated Economics teacher.

Right up until the paragraph about the argument. The style disintegrates. That paragraph reads as if it were written by a student in middle school with few written communications skills beyond good spelling. It's hard to believe the same person wrote both that paragraph and the rest of the letter.

Then the style reverts back to the professional style you'd expect from a college educated Economics teacher.

It probably doesn't mean anything other than that the teacher was still pretty wound up about the incident, but it was something that was too strange not to notice.

 

[russ_watters]

Just out of curiosity, should a student (or teacher) be permitted to wear a belt buckle displaying this image?
http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaypride/p/rainbowflag.htm
What if just one person finds it offensive?

You're missing the point. At issue isn't the people viewing the symbol, but the people using the symbol. Certain symbols have a history and oft-intended use as hate speech. In other words, the symbol was adopted for the purpose of displaying hate. It is because of that history that such symbols are categorized and treated that way. The rainbow has no connection with hate speech.

 

[Evo]

My question is - why is the confederate flag taken as a reference to the KKK? Please- answer me that. I really want to know the source of this.

Nice selecting pictures to suit your post. You realize it's just as easy to post hundreds of KKk members holding the confederate flag.

In answer to your question.

The Confederate battle flag, called the "Southern Cross" or the cross of St. Andrew, has been described variously as a proud emblem of Southern heritage and as a shameful reminder of slavery and segregation. In the past, several Southern states flew the Confederate battle flag along with the U.S. and state flags over their statehouses. Others incorporated the controversial symbol into the design of their state flags. The Confederate battle flag has also been appropriated by the Ku Klux Klan and other racist hate groups. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 extremist groups use the Southern Cross as one of their symbols.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html

 

[russ_watters]

If I were in michigan, and I saw a confederate flag hanging from someone's porch, my immediate thought would be that they have family or are originally from the south. The idea that they meaning to display "hate" (of what, no one has seemed to clear up yet - could be hate for brownies as far as I know.) would never enter my mind. Then again, I actually know what the flag means. [emphasis added]

Is that feigned ignorance or a Freudian slip? Anyway, I was pretty specific in my first response to you, but let me try again:

The Confederate Battle Flag is predominantly a symbol of the Confederate side of the Civil War. The Civil War was predominantly fought over slavery. That is why modern hate groups (such as the government of the state of Georgia in the 1950s!) often choose to use the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of their racism: it is the most direct, relevant and recognizable symbol of racism available to them.

In all honesty, this makes about the exact same sense as saying the buddists that lived thousands of years ago that made a practice out of using the swastika were in fact, Nazis.

Actually, you're arguing against your own point there. Since the Confederate Battle Flag was created during the Civil War, it couldn't possibly have been a symbol of the heritage of pre-civil war southerners.

 

[BobG]

Yeah, you're going to find some with the confederate flag too, but you'll find them using our good ol' American flag much more commonly, and you'll find them using the christian flag by FAR the most often.

Nice selecting pictures to suit your post. You realize it's just as easy to post hundreds of KKk members holding the confederate flag.

In answer to your question.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html

1MileCrash is technically correct in that the US flag is used more often than the Confederate flag. There is no special symbolism in having the US flag at KKK meetings. The US flag just makes the meeting seem more official as opposed to a disorganized gathering of a gaggle of lunatics.

Using the Confederate flag at KKK meetings is reserved for those KKK groups that believe the US flag is a symbol of the Jewish controlled government.

Some KKK groups just hated minorities. Some KKK groups also hated the US government.

The pictures of KKK groups with the US flag were just pictures of the slightly less extreme KKK groups.

By the way, that's not exactly an endorsement that hate groups ought to be able to claim any symbol they feel like grabbing as their own. For example, which of the following are symbols of white supremist hate groups and should no longer be used as answers on arithmetic tests?

a) 18
b) 28
c) 23
d) 100%

Answer: All four are.

18 stands for AH, or Adolf Hitler.
28 stands for BH, or Blood and Honor.
23 stands for W, or white.
100% stands for racial purity, or 100% white.


Or, conversely, what's wrong with these kids?
[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg

Answer: Nothing. That's the way kids did the Pledge of Allegiance prior to World War II.


Things like this go way beyond rationality.

 

[russ_watters]

1MileCrash is technically correct in that the US flag is used more often than the Confederate flag. There is no special symbolism in having the US flag at KKK meetings. The US flag just makes the meeting seem more official as opposed to a disorganized gathering of a gaggle of lunatics.

Ehh, I'd think it is more an intent to claim they are on the same side as "us" or that "we" should be on their side. They believe they are patriots and fly the flag as a symbol of that...

...flying the battle flag as well would be contradictory, so it would surprise me to see both at the same time. One link from a specific group I saw said that they started flying the Confederate Flag during the civil rights movement as a protest against government oppression. In other words, to say that the government should be overthrown or fought against as during the civil war. They also sometimes fly the American Flag upside-down for the same reason.

 

[WhoWee]

You're missing the point. At issue isn't the people viewing the symbol, but the people using the symbol. Certain symbols have a history and oft-intended use as hate speech. In other words, the symbol was adopted for the purpose of displaying hate. It is because of that history that such symbols are categorized and treated that way. The rainbow has no connection with hate speech.

Let's test the statement:
If a Gay person wears the Gay flag it's ok - right?
If a Mexican wears a Mexican flag it's ok - right?
If a Black person wears African garb it's ok - right?
If a Muslim wears Muslim garb it's ok - right?
If a Jewish person wears a Jewish symbol it's ok - right?
If a Christian wears a cross it's ok - right?
If a hunter wears a hunting permit it's ok - right?
If a biker has tattoo's (of non-hate symbols) from head to toe it's ok - right?
If a Southern (redneck stereotype) wears the Confederate flag it's ok - right?
If a Nascar fan wears a Confederate flag it's ok - right?
If a Russian wears a Soviet symbol it's ok - right?
If a German wears a Nazi symbol - it's ok?
If a KKK member wears a (symbol with a hood - of some type?) on his buckle - it's ok?

Hmmm - it feels as though the KKK and Nazi people would have a problem - even though they are being honest. While it MIGHT be possible one or more of the (seemingly) acceptable displays might be just as hateful?

 

[russ_watters]

Let's test the statement:
If a Gay person wears the Gay flag it's ok - right?
If a Mexican wears a Mexican flag it's ok - right?
If a Black person wears African garb it's ok - right?
If a Muslim wears Muslim garb it's ok - right?
If a Jewish person wears a Jewish symbol it's ok - right?
If a Christian wears a cross it's ok - right?
If a hunter wears a hunting permit it's ok - right?
If a biker has tattoo's (of non-hate symbols) from head to toe it's ok - right?
If a Southern (redneck stereotype) wears the Confederate flag it's ok - right? no
If a Nascar fan wears a Confederate flag it's ok - right? no
If a Russian wears a Soviet symbol it's ok - right?
If a German wears a Nazi symbol - it's ok? no
If a KKK member wears a (symbol with a hood - of some type?) on his buckle - it's ok? no

Hmmm - it feels as though the KKK and Nazi people would have a problem - even though they are being honest. While it MIGHT be possible one or more of the (seemingly) acceptable displays might be just as hateful?

Huh? See responses in bold. I'm not sure I see any connection between your post and mine that you responded to.

 

[WhoWee]

Huh? See responses in bold. I'm not sure I see any connection between your post and mine that you responded to.

Here is a direct connection.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?slug=dw-confederateflag100906
"TALLADEGA, Ala. – Over the rolling Alabama hills, the soft autumn breeze still whistles through Dixie, finding a legendary track on race week and a sea of flags to push and pull – American flags, driver flags and the flag that remains the third rail of NASCAR, the Confederate.
In America, a NASCAR race is the last major sporting event where the Stars and Bars is still so prevalent, still so prominent, and while the debate over whether the flag's presence is appropriate isn't new, the stakes for NASCAR continue to get higher.

After a decade of massive growth, NASCAR's popularity has slowed and television ratings have slumped. To restart its progress, NASCAR must continue to attract new fans in fresh, more diverse markets, many of whom view the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism and oppression. Yet NASCAR doesn't want to alienate its loyal base, many of whom view the waving flags in the infield as a symbol of honor, history and traditional Southern pride. "

 

[1MileCrash]

The Confederate Battle Flag is predominantly a symbol of the Confederate side of the Civil War. The Civil War was predominantly fought over slavery.

Now, I am no history revisionists who will say slavery no part, because it did. It played a large part in the southern states' decision to succeed from the union along with a myriad of other reasons. The south was wrong in it's reasons for succeeding.

The US government rejected the legality of succession. (succession is mentioned no where in the constitution). In this respect I'd say the north was wrong in declaring that succession was illegal despite the constitution's silence on the matter, as the US is a group of states that willingly joined together in union.

This is where the confederate flag was created, as a symbol of the confederate states and their right to succeed from the union. Nope, it had nothing to do with slavery. It's best symbolism can be summed up with scottish origins and the american colors. Really.

Regardless...

I'm still not getting the racism, even taking into account your misunderstandings, I mean considering that persons of all races, including whites were slaves, and that slaves were mainly imported through the north?

That is why modern hate groups (such as the government of the state of Georgia in the 1950s!) often choose to use the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of their racism: it is the most direct, relevant and recognizable symbol of racism available to them.

Are you being serious here?

Actually, you're arguing against your own point there. Since the Confederate Battle Flag was created during the Civil War, it couldn't possibly have been a symbol of the heritage of pre-civil war southerners.

No.

The confederate flag was created during the civil war, as a symbol of the southern states. Not as racism, or twinkie hatred, or cobbler whoring or whatever it is.


Just so we're understanding each other - you believe that the creation of the Confederate flag did not symbolize the confederate states, or the southern Us, but the advocation of slavery and (weirdly) racism?

Ponder this - does the American flag mean racism or slavery to you? I mean, the north had slaves almost just as long as the southern states did, the southern states were just behind in getting rid of them. If you consider the confederate flag to be solely a symbol of racism, do you at least admit that the US flag can be thought of as a symbol for slavery in the same way, along with the flags of several other nations?

Why do you insist that it is all that the flag symbolizes? Why does it symbolize that at all? Does the US flag represent discrimination to you? Or does it represent the proud inhabitants of the country and the pride they have for where they live?

 

[BobG]

Ehh, I'd think it is more an intent to claim they are on the same side as "us" or that "we" should be on their side. They believe they are patriots and fly the flag as a symbol of that...

...flying the battle flag as well would be contradictory, so it would surprise me to see both at the same time. One link from a specific group I saw said that they started flying the Confederate Flag during the civil rights movement as a protest against government oppression. In other words, to say that the government should be overthrown or fought against as during the civil war. They also sometimes fly the American Flag upside-down for the same reason.

Exactly! The use of the Confederate flag is to express a little more hate against even more people.

However...

The message being sent by a symbol depends on the context in which that symbol is used; not the symbol itself. The reality is - allowing a symbol to be consistently misused distorts the symbol's meanings to whatever the new users want it to mean. Having people misuse a symbol should tick off people who actually respect that symbol more than anyone else.

For example, I'm surprised when I hear people defend the students that wore US flag T-shirts to protest a Cinco de Mayo celebration. That's not what the US flag was intended for, it's not even appropriate to wear the US flag as apparel, and it leads to idiotic reactions such as telling a kid he has to stop displaying his flag because it's Veteran's Day.