Friction force without coefficient of friction?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of friction force, particularly in the context of whether it can be determined without knowing the coefficient of friction. Participants explore the implications of static and kinetic friction, and the role of Newton's second law in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether friction force can be calculated without a friction coefficient, suggesting that it is typically determined by the coefficient and normal force.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on whether the friction in question is static or kinetic.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about whether the friction is static and requests explanations for both cases.
  • It is proposed that friction force can be calculated using Newton's second law (F = m x a) if the mass and acceleration are known, and if friction is the only force acting.
  • One participant argues that the friction coefficient is an approximation, citing examples like velcro, where resistance does not scale linearly with normal force.
  • A participant notes that if the friction is static, the coefficient is not needed as long as the object is not sliding, using the example of a box on an inclined plane to illustrate that static friction can be determined without the coefficient until sliding begins.
  • Further clarification is provided that knowing the coefficient of static friction is almost useless for finding actual friction unless other forces and conditions are known.
  • Another participant agrees with the previous point, emphasizing that for a stationary box, the net force is zero (ma = 0), making coefficients irrelevant if other forces are known.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of the friction coefficient for calculating friction force, particularly distinguishing between static and kinetic friction. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the general applicability of coefficients in various scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in determining friction force without coefficients, particularly in cases where specific material properties are unknown or when dealing with non-linear resistance behaviors.

Aris Holmes
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I have a problem need to be solved here. Someone told me that the friction force must always have the friction coefficient. Is it right or wrong? and we can not calculate the friction force without friction coefficient because this force is only calculated by the coefficient and the Normal force?
Is there any way to calculate friction force without coefficient because I think that there are many materials can not identify the specific coefficient?
The friction force I think is the force like Newton's Force. So can I calculate the friction force by the second fomula of Newton force: F= m x a?
 
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Is it static or kinetic friction?
 
I think it is static friction. But I am not sure about it. So could you mind explaining both of 2 cases
 
Aris Holmes said:
So can I calculate the friction force by the second fomula of Newton force: F= m x a?
Yes, sure. If you know m, a, and friction is the only force acting, or you also know the other forces.
 
The idea of a friction coefficient is just an approximation. Some surfaces don't behave this way. For example, velcro. The resistance to movement is very strong, but it doesn't scale linearly with normal force.
 
ActionPotential's question in post #2 is very pertinent. If it is static friction, then you don't need to know the coefficient of static friction as long as the object is not yet sliding. Consider a box on an inclined plane. From a force balance in the direction along the plane, the friction force is statically determinate, and you don't need to know the coefficient of static friction. However, you do need to know the coefficient of static friction if you want to find out the conditions under which the box will start to slide.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
If it is static friction, then you don't need to know the coefficient of static friction as long as the object is not yet sliding.
If it is static friction, then knowing the coefficient of static friction is almost useless to find the actual friction (except for the upper boundary). You have to know the other forces and m & a, to find the actual static friction. But if you know all this then the type of force and any coefficients are irrelevant.
 
A.T. said:
If it is static friction, then knowing the coefficient of static friction is almost useless to find the actual friction (except for the upper boundary). You have to know the other forces and m & a, to find the actual static friction. But if you know all this then the type of force and any coefficients are irrelevant.
Yes. This is what I was trying to say in my own way. Also we should mention that, for a box on a stationary slide, ma = 0.

Chet
 

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