News Future of European Constitution After French Vote

[Monique]

Now that the French have voted against the constitution, what will be the future of it?

 

[Adrian Baker]

Yes Yes Yes! What a pile of S***e that constitution was. The EU is undemocratic, ruled by an unelected elite and is living in a socialist 1950/60s kind of world. It sucked.

Thank you France for voting no. We would have too, but the Uk is ignored when it points out problems with Europe.

What willhappen? The unelected elite will carry on as if nothing had happened. They are so out of touch with the people of Europe. Yesterday, was the high point of that monstous entity the EU - it is all downhill from here. I'll give you odds of 50:1 that Italy isn't using the Euro currency in 10 years time. The Euro sucks too - it will now not last.

Germany is in an awful mess due to the Euro, and the Italian and Portugese economies are beyond belief! The quicker the whole European project collapses, the better.

No. I'm not some "little-englander" with a 'we-won-the-war-mentality' but a true believer in free trade, small Govt, and democracy.

Vive La France!

 

[Adrian Baker]

Holland next on Wednesday. That will be a no too!

Ha Ha Ha.

Democracy may yet return to Europe!

 

[GENIERE]

Yes Yes Yes! What a pile of S***e that constitution was. The EU is undemocratic, ruled by an unelected elite and is living in a socialist 1950/60s kind of world. It sucked.

I can’t disagree with your comment; the EU Constitution is a socialist pile of crap. Of course the French voted against it for all the wrong reasons, seeking to preserve a failing socialist state. 20+%of French workers are employed by the state; the unemployment is above 10% and above 22% for the worker under 25 years old. The economy is stagnant and can never be competitive in a global marketplace while business is smothered by regulations. The promise of cradle to grave government largess is nothing but a pyramid scheme inevitably impoverishing all.

The German voter would have surely voted against it had they been given the opportunity to do so. No country, that has accepted the EU Constitution, has done so via a democratic process. All countries that have allowed a popular vote have rejected it, as will the Dutch.

The unelected elite are, of course, anything but elite, simply the idiotic followers of a intolerant religion with Mordecai Marx as its insane, ranting prophet.

Unfortunately the European nations do need a means to act in concert as far as improving the business environment, as no individual EU nation can remain economically viable in a global market.

...

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow 20% for the government? Whats the stat in the US?

My parents both worked for the government here and they say its like a dream job. Huge job security, doesn't matter if you suck or not or do your job or not, great pay, insane retirement plans, no accountability... oh man...

 

[PerennialII]

LOL --- would think it as democracit whether the people or the parliaments/governments do the voting.

The EU "constitution" is worth a laugh at tops, but can't really see much of a difference whether the "elite" ( ) is national or EU level, at least the EU eliminates some of the petty bickering and tries to give us a direction for solving our problems.

 

[Adrian Baker]

... at least the EU eliminates some of the petty bickering and tries to give us a direction for solving our problems.

But if the direction is all wrong - then it doesn't solve our problems.

Tha Common Agricultural Policy rewards small inefficent farmers in France, costs a huge amount to the taxpayers of Europe, and even worse it distorts world trade by dumping cheap subsidised food on the world market. This prevents poor non-EU countries from making a living. This one policy is responsible for a huge amount of poverty around the world.

The Fisheries policy is just as bad. At the moment huge European fleets are sucking up vast amounts of fish from the seas off the west coust of North Africa. The politicians in the African countries make money personally, the EU gets cheap fish, and the people of Africa see another African resource plundered.

I could go on... but I'd be typing for about an hour!

 

[PerennialII]

... yeah and on most points in all likelihood I'd be agreeing with you. Although EU brings about several rotten aspects, I don't see why we should revert to an era of "nation-states" ... it's not like everything in Europe was rosy before the EU. I wouldn't disband the idea of European unification ... who needs separate counties anyways ?

 

[Monique]

There is a Dutch guy who read the whole constitution, and chapter by chapter commented on the content in a blog. You can read his conclusion on the European constitution here http://blogger.xs4all.nl/steeph/archive/2005/05/26/40741.aspx

He concludes with: "After reading it all, reading related stuff (other constitutions), writing about it, thinking about it, discussing it and summing it all up, I came to the conclusion that this constitution is just not good enough. Europe deserves better. The people of Europe deserve better."

That doesn't mean that the European constitution as it is presented now is worse than the current constitutions, as he also mentions: "It's also very important to state that I don't judge this constitution against the current situation. I already concluded that it will be an improvement over the current situation. But that is not what they ask me to vote for." It means that the current form is not acceptable.

I would like to see a European constitution that would lead to better economical and political coorporation, I'm not sure whether this one is it. I think the government should have been more open about the actual content, rather than employing scare tactics to get people to vote either way.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Why not have a constitutional convention? It was never in the cards that unsupervised elites and bureaucrats could devise a good constitution.

 

[skeptic]

I think that the UK should vote to become an American state. Parts of the UK are probably closer to Washington ('spiritually' as well as geographically) than are parts of the US, the UK has long been the USA's aircraft carrier off the shores of Europe, and its politicians have long been the US president's lap-dogs. The UK could dump its royalty at the same time; without the risk of Blair becoming UK president. Most of all, it is only right that a young vigorous country should take its ailing parents in.

 

[Pengwuino]

No, you should be set off into a retirement home and neglected and mistreated by everyoen :D lol jk... let me check those distances from washington!

Meh, washington to UK : 3500 miles
washingto to California: 2500 miles

Well, to alaska or hawaii u have a point lol.

 

[brewnog]

I think that the UK should vote to become an American state. Parts of the UK are probably closer to Washington ('spiritually' as well as geographically) than are parts of the US, the UK has long been the USA's aircraft carrier off the shores of Europe, and its politicians have long been the US president's lap-dogs. The UK could dump its royalty at the same time; without the risk of Blair becoming UK president. Most of all, it is only right that a young vigorous country should take its ailing parents in.

You had better just be trying to wind us up. Who are you anyway?!

Anyway, aside from the language, the UK has far more in common with Europe than the US. I don't know anyone who would vote to do such a thing. It doesn't bear thinking about. Many UKish citizens do realize that their PM is a puppet with Bush's hand up his arse, but that's not the point. The country is more than just its current leadership.

Anyway, I'm not going to get dragged into this now, I'd like my blood to remain liquid, but I'll say that it's an utterly ridiculous idea and it would never, ever, ever, ever, ever happen, and I sincerely hope you were taking the piss trying to get a reaction out of us!

 

[danAlwyn]

I tried to read the EU Constitution. I'm surprised that I'm still walking and talking after that venture. It was the most confusing political document that I've ever seen anybody try to found a nation on. Normally I do all right at that kind of stuff, but the EU Constitution was so horribly written that I gave up partway through.

 

[Joel]

Well, I think the current treaties (nice, amsterdam and mastricht) could be called some kind of constitutional conventions because they define what the 'three pillars' of European co-operation do - European Communities (internal economic and social co-operation), the foreign and security policy co-operation (some crise-management forces) and Judical and Criminal co-operation (for example, Europol) - and how they are controlled by the Parliament, Ministry Council, Commision and European Cout of Justice. This is also the case in the UK, where there is no single, written constitutional document, but many treaties that are applied according to various court rulings over time - these are UK's constitutional conventions.

The new document at hand would lump the existing treaties into a single document, hopefully clarifying the relationship between 'EU's government branches' and include the value foundation in the European Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

I haven't read more than bits from the proposed constitution, but I have tried to link some of the previous treaties together and that is pure pain. So, I don't know if the proposed constitution has any serious flaws, but I'd say they have to be pretty big to make it worse than the current situation. If european integration is desirable, then I'd say some form of constitution is needed, weather it is this or the next one.

Ps. This would aslo be my answer to SelfAdjoint; for simplicity reasons.

 

[skeptic]

It was a wind up, but I thought of it only because this was once seriously suggested back in the 1960s by a UK politician. I cannot remember the exact details, but I think that the politician was Sir Gerald Nabarro.

 

[Joel]

If anybody wants to repeat danAlwayn's adventure, here you can read the constitution and stuff about it: http://europa.eu.int/constitution/index_en.htm

 

[Art]

Europeans have a long history of warring with their neighbours and so the EU is simply a forum for 'war by other means'. To that end it has been successful in so much as the member states have stopped shooting at each other settling instead for diplomatic squabbling. The EU project began as a trade agreement and that is as far as european integration should go. The idea of a united federal europe is nonsensical driven only by the egos of a couple of French and German politicians attempting 'conquest by other means'. Given the huge cultural and linguistic differences between the member states it will never happen.
That said the proposed constitution is pretty meaningless as you'd expect from a document necessarily based on the self interests of 25 member states. I believe the reason for rejection by the French isn't so much the constitution itself, it's more a message that they, like the overwhelming majority of europeans, have had enough of a federal europe being shoved down their throats by stealth.
I believe the only reason the British government supported the constitution is because they fundamentally object to the EU but realize they cannot exist economically outside it so better to destroy it from within. They see the constitution as a vehicle to greatly increase the membership of the EU thus watering it down to the point that it becomes irrelevent
Here in Ireland we shall be having a referendum but Chirac can rest assured; if we vote no we'll simply keep voting until we get it right as with the Nice treaty.

 

[vanesch]

I have to say that there are quite some uninformed comments about that Constitution here.

The first point is that it would make for an "undemocratic" Europe: for the moment, the European union is a technocracy, and the constitution wanted to change that (partly) by giving some power 1) to the European parliament (which is, as it is now, a joke, in that the only power it has is to send the commission home) and 2) to citizen initiative, with the petition right.
By saying "no" to that constitution we fall back upon the Nice treaty which instored the current technocratic situation (which I personally like, btw).

The second point is that silly remark about a "socialist" constitution: in fact, the only points where the constitution was talking about such matters, was in its fundamental principle of the free market as basic organizing scheme - not a very socialist idea, I'd say - but that is just TAKEN OVER from the previous Nice treaty (and former treaties). So on this point, nothing will change.
The only "socialist" part was that each member state was explicitly allowed to organize public activities for the general well-being which can be in deficit, on their own decision and initiative and finance (like, say, having a train run to a small village where almost nobody takes the train, just because that member state can find it important to offer public transport to each village).
Most "no" voters in France thought that this constitution was not "socialist" enough, but in fact on that point, yes or no don't make any difference: the internal free market is guaranteed, and "social" initiatives are left to the member states.

Concerning a constitutional convention: but that WAS the case: 200 members from the European parliament (all elected directly by the Europeans) wrote that constitution.

Concerning France: yes, a big part of the French people never understood the principles of a market economy :-) But you shouldn't exaggerate either: only 10% is in state function, and that's essentially because education (teachers) are state servants. They represent the biggest part of the French state ; you could easily change that bookkeeping by making schools "private institutions with state subvention".

Honestly, I find it a pity that the French (and in a few hours the Dutch) say "no" to this "constitution" in that it could have helped the EU move forward. However, I agree that it is a very opaque document: no constitution should be so long and complicated ; it should be kept on, say, at most 10 pages.
In fact, it is not so much a constitution as a new, cleaned-up treaty which introduced some extra democratic principles into a rather technocratic machinery, and, that's the biggest loss, a much more efficient decision process. It also would have given the EU finally a united voice to the rest of the world. The funny thing is that most people who are against the constitution (except nationalists) are against the 3rd part, which just takes over most elements from previous treaties. By saying no, they do 2 things: they KEEP the previous treaties, and they eliminate the possibilities, specified in the (new) first two parts, to change them (by petition initiative, or through their representatives in the European parliament - which cannot do such a thing currently).

The only thing left in the European functioning now, is a unanimous agreement of the European Council (the heads of state of the 25 countries) in order to change ANYTHING to the current treaties. This is extremely difficult as everybody has, as such, veto right, so nothing significant can be changed.

So the irony is that the no-voters, who are mainly against the part that they ignore IS ALREADY THERE, only accomplished that they 1) kept that part and 2) made it very difficult to change it !

Most French no-voters were convinced that this treaty could be re-negociated, to make it more "socialist". I think that is a big illusion, the treaty being a product of very long negociations and compromise. I don't think anything fundamentally different can come out of such a complicated negociation. So I think that - apart from nationalists - most no-voters did so for very uninformed reasons.

Finally, I think it is a mistake to subject such a difficult matter to a referendum. Representative democracy has its role: the people should INDICATE WHO are their leaders, but the leaders should be responsible for their decisions, especially complicated technical ones like this one. As a people cannot be held "responsible" for decisions, it should not take them.

BTW, I do not think that this constitution was a particularly bright text ! It was a complicated technical document, but that allowed a better decision making process, and outlined a better framework for cooperation in Europe. As such, it was worth taking, when compared to the actual treaties. Such decisions shouldn't be made by peasants and lowly educated workers who are just swallowing whatever nonsense others told them.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[vanesch]

Europeans have a long history of warring with their neighbours and so the EU is simply a forum for 'war by other means'. To that end it has been successful in so much as the member states have stopped shooting at each other settling instead for diplomatic squabbling. The EU project began as a trade agreement and that is as far as european integration should go. The idea of a united federal europe is nonsensical driven only by the egos of a couple of French and German politicians attempting 'conquest by other means'. Given the huge cultural and linguistic differences between the member states it will never happen.

Well, it happened in the past, for several hunderd years under the Roman Empire!

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[Galileo]

I'm still in doubt on whether to vote. I may or may not go. I guess I`m against holding a referendum. A lot of people are complaining (like always), but without a referendum everyone will forget the whole deal within 2 years whatever the government decides to do.

If I decide to go, I still have to convince myself to vote against or in favor. Arrgh, politics.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well Galileo, why don't you guys act like California does here in the US? Give the people the chance to vote but throw out the vote when the decision isn't what the state wants and pass your own vote :D

 

[Galileo]

Well, that may actually happen, since IIRC the voting is officially just a probe.

 

[danAlwyn]

It also would have given the EU finally a united voice to the rest of the world.

I'm not sure about this. The mechnisms to force the European nations to come to one consensus both speedily and without undue negotiation are at best ill-defined. There doesn't seem to be any enforcement clause either-or any central diplomatic office that supercedes the national diplomatic offices (for instance, there will be no EU ambassador to the US with the authority to dismiss the German or French ambassadors for making inappropriate diplomatic gestures). Europe normally agrees anyway, but if the nations of Europe ever disagree, there's no way I can see to keep that voice united.

 

[Clausius2]

I remember just now some time ago when Chirac was claming against Nice treatments, against Aznar and against Spain who were the defenders of it.

Now we have the constitution which France and Germany really wants, and now it comes to demonstrate that governors and population interests are faraway each other. What the hell wanted France if not this current constitution? They were not happy with Nice because Spain and Polland had a greater power than now, but they are not happy too with this constitution. What do they want? A coffee??

 

[russ_watters]

Wow 20% for the government? Whats the stat in the US?

http://federaljobs.net/ 2.7 million, or about 2%. I'm not sure if that includes the military, but I suspect it does not (probably another 2%).

Interesting thread, guys. I don't have much to add since I know very little about it, but its interesting (and ironic, re: the French) to hear Europeans' opinions on democracy and the EU. It would be truly a quinticential irony if the EU came together in an effort to counter American economic strength only to fail due to choosing socialism.

 

[Monique]

More than 50% of the people voted, they've counted part of the votes and as of now 63% of the Dutch have voted against the European constitution. I think the politicians are in trouble :S

 

[Galileo]

More than 50% of the people voted, they've counted part of the votes and as of now 63% of the Dutch have voted against the European constitution. I think the politicians are in trouble :S

Did you vote, Monique?

 

[vanesch]

Now we have the constitution which France and Germany really wants, and now it comes to demonstrate that governors and population interests are faraway each other. What the hell wanted France if not this current constitution? They were not happy with Nice because Spain and Polland had a greater power than now, but they are not happy too with this constitution. What do they want? A coffee??

Yes, this is the paradox (or irony if you want) of the French "non". This constitution was in their advantage for different reasons, and the French peasants and silly leftish work force didn't realize this (mended essentially by a few left wing politicians who were using cheap arguments to distinguish themselves from official party lines in order to prepare themselves for the elections in 2007 ; I'm mainly thinking of Laurent Fabius). They acted like spoiled children who say "no" to a very very exceptional present because they don't like the color of the paper in which it is envelopped. For instance, the extreme left argued that one shouldn't accept this constitution because one should negociate again to incorporate MORE of the French social model, not realizing that this is absolutely impossible (especially with the new members of the Union).
Chirac did a very bad job in explaining that, but I don't think that the "non" was his fault. After all, his camp (the conservatives) were already aligned on the "oui", and Chirac was badly placed to try to convince the left. The biggest responsability lies with left wing political leaders who wanted to boost their own career (Fabius especially), and others who didn't know what they were talking about.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[vanesch]

More than 50% of the people voted, they've counted part of the votes and as of now 63% of the Dutch have voted against the European constitution. I think the politicians are in trouble :S

What were the main arguments to vote against it in the Netherlands ? Were they similar as in France or totally different ?

In France, the main reason was (46 % of the no-voters): because they "have enough of it" (those politicians) ; (40 %) because there is too high unemployment and 35% because one should negociate a new treaty with a less capitalistic contents. I think around 20% was for nationalistic reasons.

( I got this from a TV show after the elections ; given the fact that this adds to more than 100% I suppose it means that more than 1 reason could be given).

 

[vanesch]

It would be truly a quinticential irony if the EU came together in an effort to counter American economic strength only to fail due to choosing socialism.

First of all, the European Union has always been more "capitalist" (in that its essential function is to promote the free internal market) than each of its member states individually. However, the idea was not to "counter American economic strength" (which will soon be nothing compared to Chinese and Indian economic strength!), but to try to be an actor in the world which plays on equal levels as the US, and even maybe, as the Chinese ; something which individual European nations cannot do, simply because they are too small, individually.
Europe doesn't want to "counter the US" economically ; however, we'd like to get our political independence from the US.

You are right that the irony is that those that mostly wanted such a counter weight against "the US" killed the best tool that they had to do so, which was this constitution.

 

[vanesch]

I'm not sure about this. The mechnisms to force the European nations to come to one consensus both speedily and without undue negotiation are at best ill-defined. There doesn't seem to be any enforcement clause either-or any central diplomatic office that supercedes the national diplomatic offices (for instance, there will be no EU ambassador to the US with the authority to dismiss the German or French ambassadors for making inappropriate diplomatic gestures). Europe normally agrees anyway, but if the nations of Europe ever disagree, there's no way I can see to keep that voice united.

The nations making up the EU remain souvereign nations, so they cannot be forced anything upon them, especially not foreign politics. So if there is division within the EU, then this won't work and that will remain so as long as the EU is a conglomerate of souvereign nations. However, the constitution did put tools for internal negociation and for external representation if there IS a consensus.
For instance, in the case of the war in Irak, as Europe was divided, maybe the internal negociation would have made us make less a spectacle of ourselves although probably no consensus would have been reached. However, in the case of Iran, when everybody agrees to try to put pressure upon them to abandon the work on nuclear weapons, the EU would have had the tools to speak as one union, and could have sent European negociators with a mandate of the entire union. This would probably have more effect than individual actions.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[Monique]

What were the main arguments to vote against it in the Netherlands ? Were they similar as in France or totally different ?

It was part of a poll in the newspaper yesterday, but I can't find it anymore. There were three main arguments: 1) the Netherlands will lose its identity, 2) the Netherlands is paying too much for the EU, 3) the Dutch will lose their jobs to foreigners.

 

[GENIERE]

You got to be kidding! If you think the EU Constitution is not a far left statement you must trod the same turf as Ted Williams. You’re way out there!

This is the most outlandish statement I can recall reading in these forums but it does, in a nutshell, say every thing there is to be said about the elitist mindset. Wow!

…BTW, I do not think that this constitution …Such decisions shouldn't be made by peasants and lowly educated workers who are just swallowing whatever nonsense others told them.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[Art]

Well, it happened in the past, for several hunderd years under the Roman Empire!

cheers,
Patrick.

Couple of points Patrick;

1) The Romans conquered most of europe. Not quite the same as consensual unity

2) The French were selling exocet missiles to Argentina while one of their fellow EU members were at war with them. And actually boasted about it's success to boost sales after the war. Hardly the stuff unions are made of.

3) The proposed constitution is being sold by the 'Yes' campaigners as simply an amalgamation of existing treaties and a reform of qualified majority voting to aid decision making but as usual there were a few tag ons such as a full time president and a full time foreign ambassador.

4) I saw you lamenting in one of your posts about the right to petition being lost because of the 'No' vote but you failed to mention that this petition needs a million signatures from a yet to be specified number of countries whereupon the commission would 'consider' it. Doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

5) You also claimed the treaty was drafted by the 200 elected MEPS. Actually of the 105 people on the committe which drew up this document 72 were elected officials.

6) Can you confirm that the 'No' vote prevailed in France because the farmers and rural communities feared a drop in their subsidies if poorer member were admitted.

 

[russ_watters]

However, the idea was not to "counter American economic strength" (which will soon be nothing compared to Chinese and Indian economic strength!), but to try to be an actor in the world which plays on equal levels as the US, and even maybe, as the Chinese ; something which individual European nations cannot do, simply because they are too small, individually.

How is that different from what I said?

 

[vanesch]

You got to be kidding! If you think the EU Constitution is not a far left statement you must trod the same turf as Ted Williams. You’re way out there!

It doesn't require individual property to be abolished so this is not a far left document (if we are going to say silly things anyhow...)

This is the most outlandish statement I can recall reading in these forums but it does, in a nutshell, say every thing there is to be said about the elitist mindset. Wow!

Well, there is a VERY CLEAR correlation between education level and voting. People who left school at 16 voted for 65% against ; people with a college degree voted for 64% in favor. People with just a high school diploma were 53% against.

http://www.ipsos.fr/CanalIpsos/articles/1608.asp?rubId=19

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[vanesch]

3) The proposed constitution is being sold by the 'Yes' campaigners as simply an amalgamation of existing treaties and a reform of qualified majority voting to aid decision making but as usual there were a few tag ons such as a full time president and a full time foreign ambassador.

What's wrong with that ? Now we have a new president every 6 months !
This is simply part of a better decision making process, no ?

4) I saw you lamenting in one of your posts about the right to petition being lost because of the 'No' vote but you failed to mention that this petition needs a million signatures from a yet to be specified number of countries whereupon the commission would 'consider' it. Doesn't sound like much of a loss to me.

Well, if I'm not mistaking, the EU contains about 400 million people, so 1 million is not such a high number to reach, isn't it ? Let us not forget that the EU is only busy with matters that are better solved on EU level than on national level. So it is not because in your village you have a problem that you should use this procedure. But an organisation which has already a European presence, such as, say, work unions or political parties or sports associations or universities or whatever could easily get such a number of votes if they have something important to say and they do some campaigning.

5) You also claimed the treaty was drafted by the 200 elected MEPS. Actually of the 105 people on the committe which drew up this document 72 were elected officials.

Ah, I heard the number of 200 during a TV debate.

6) Can you confirm that the 'No' vote prevailed in France because the farmers and rural communities feared a drop in their subsidies if poorer member were admitted.

Well, the funny thing is that NOW this will happen almost for sure :-)
I don't think that this argument was the main one (although indeed, most farmers voted against, but that has more to do with them being traditionally extreme right wing). The main "no" vote came from the left who wanted to renegociate a less capitalistic document.

Have a look at:

http://www.ipsos.fr/CanalIpsos/articles/1608.asp?rubId=19

concerning the statistics of the voting.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[vanesch]

It was part of a poll in the newspaper yesterday, but I can't find it anymore. There were three main arguments: 1) the Netherlands will lose its identity, 2) the Netherlands is paying too much for the EU, 3) the Dutch will lose their jobs to foreigners.

That was indeed the viewpoint of the extreme right in France too . But it was not the majority "no" vote here ; that was given by the left who wanted to "renegociate" a more social constitution.

 

[vanesch]

How is that different from what I said?

Well, I didn't get your "by choosing socialism", unless you meant that the french left voted against this "capitalist" constitution in order to be a "bigger weight against the US". Then yes, I agree with you, this is very ironic, because they'll have exactly the opposite

 

[GENIERE]

It doesn't require individual property to be abolished so this is not a far left document (if we are going to say silly things anyhow...)

Yeah, it’s allowed subject to various conditions and insofar it does not interfere with the public good.

Try reading the children’s rights section from a conservative viewpoint and compare it to communist dogma or Tony Blair’s and Hilary Clinton’s the 3rd way.

Well, there is a VERY CLEAR correlation between education level and voting. People who left school at 16 voted for 65% against ; people with a college degree voted for 64% in favor. People with just a high school diploma were 53% against.

cheers,
Patrick.

Perhaps the unwashed masses should only be allowed to vote for the best movie.


...

 

[vanesch]

Perhaps the unwashed masses should only be allowed to vote for the best movie.

Even there, I'm not sure it is a good idea...

 

[vanesch]

Yeah, it’s allowed subject to various conditions and insofar it does not interfere with the public good.

Could you cite me the article that says so ??

EDIT: ah you mean article II-17 ?
Well, do you know of one country where no such exception clause is valid ? The reason for this exception rule is NOT that the EU can undo you of your property right, but most (if not all) member states do have such laws. If this clause wasn't there, then one could invoke the European constitution to PREVENT one's own member state to proceed to expropriation.

I mean, if a state has decided, say, to build a new airport, or a highway or whatever, and there is, say, some farm land belonging to someone, then there are of course legal means to oblige that owner to sell his land to the state at a fair price.

 

[GENIERE]

Even there, I'm not sure it is a good idea...

Agreed!

...

 

[GENIERE]

Could you cite me the article that says so ??

EDIT: ah you mean article II-17 ?
Well, do you know of one country where no such exception clause is valid? The reason for this exception rule is NOT that the EU can undo you of your property right, but most (if not all) member states do have such laws.

No, and that is the point. The constitution is partially sold to the citizens of the individual nations as not egregiously infringing on their national prerogative “but most (if not all) member states do have such laws”. As you point out this provides one of many means to do so. It is in fact the reason for some of the articles in the US Constitution’s “Bill of Rights” which limits federal authority being imposed on the individual states. It was the cause of the US’s civil war and many will argue that the constitutional rights of the confederate states were abrogated.

It is somewhat typical of European nations to list the rights of the individual in their constitutions. Contrast that to the US Constitution where all rights are presumed natural with certain, specified rights infringed on for the public good; a subtle but profound difference.


…

 

[Art]

What's wrong with that ? Now we have a new president every 6 months !
This is simply part of a better decision making process, no ?.

Yes if you are a Federalist who wants a european government to take sovereign powers away from member states and transfer them to Brussels. Obviously most people aren't hence the 'no' votes.

Well, if I'm not mistaking, the EU contains about 400 million people, so 1 million is not such a high number to reach, isn't it ? Let us not forget that the EU is only busy with matters that are better solved on EU level than on national level. So it is not because in your village you have a problem that you should use this procedure. But an organisation which has already a European presence, such as, say, work unions or political parties or sports associations or universities or whatever could easily get such a number of votes if they have something important to say and they do some campaigning.

Oh you mean much like the lobbying that is currently carried out as part of the everyday political process. I suspect this change was actually introduced to make it easier for the european parliament to ignore groups lobbying for change. Whereas currently they are listened to (because politicians need to get re-elected) they would now be handed the ready made excuse sorry I can't help you until you get a million people to sign a petition from X number of counties.

Ah, I heard the number of 200 during a TV debate.

Must have been from the 'Yes' campaigners. They do tend to distort facts.

Well, the funny thing is that NOW this will happen almost for sure :-)
I don't think that this argument was the main one (although indeed, most farmers voted against, but that has more to do with them being traditionally extreme right wing). The main "no" vote came from the left who wanted to renegociate a less capitalistic document.

How can anybody who believes they have a right to an income from the state regardless of the quality or demand for their products be described as right wing? Maybe it's a cultural difference in definitions but here we call people with that view communists!

Bottom line is, there is an unstated agenda by some (Mainly by the French and German governments) to move toward a united europe by stealth but we the people simply do not want it and in every country with a referendum so far it has been rejected apart from Spain (who like Ireland over Nice) were warned of dire consequences if they rejected it.

By the way I see Chirac is already maneouvering for a new referendum in France after promising prior to the vote that he wouldn't..

 

[Art]

However, the idea was not to "counter American economic strength" (which will soon be nothing compared to Chinese and Indian economic strength!)

For the previous 12 months the year on year increase in America's GDP was bigger than India's total GDP. So perhaps your prediction will come true in a millenia or two.

 

[selfAdjoint]

And yet..

For the previous 12 months the year on year increase in America's GDP was bigger than India's total GDP. So perhaps your prediction will come true in a millenia or two.

I noticed your little put-down didn't mention China. We are in debt a bunch to them.

 

[Art]

I noticed your little put-down didn't mention China. We are in debt a bunch to them.

For completeness China's GDP is approx 14% of the USA's ranking them 6th in the world. So it will take quite a while for them to catch up on the USA as well.

 

[vanesch]

No, and that is the point. The constitution is partially sold to the citizens of the individual nations as not egregiously infringing on their national prerogative “but most (if not all) member states do have such laws”.

Yes, because it has been the result of long negociations, and you cannot change everything at once, so this "constitution" just smoothly follows the common divisor of most national legislations.
Also, it is an error to call it a "constitution" ; it is more a new European treaty.

It is in fact the reason for some of the articles in the US Constitution’s “Bill of Rights” which limits federal authority being imposed on the individual states. It was the cause of the US’s civil war and many will argue that the constitutional rights of the confederate states were abrogated.

Exactly, and that is certainly NOT the idea in Europe. The idea is certainly NOT to make a European federal nation !

It is somewhat typical of European nations to list the rights of the individual in their constitutions. Contrast that to the US Constitution where all rights are presumed natural with certain, specified rights infringed on for the public good; a subtle but profound difference.

Well, but it is still better to have a list of rights, than to have none such, without that natural presumption :-)

I have a question, though: in the US, doesn't there exist a legal means of expropriation ? I mean, if you have somewhere some farmland, or a house, or whatever, that is in the way of a big military or civil project, is there no legal means to get you to sell it to the state ?
Maybe you guys have less of such a problem in that there is "room enough" to do it where it doesn't hinder anybody...

cheers,
Patrick.