General relativity and accelerated frames

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between general relativity (GR) and accelerated frames, exploring the implications of the equivalence principle and the application of special relativity (SR) in non-inertial frames. Participants examine the conceptual foundations of GR and SR, particularly in the context of accelerating rockets compared to gravitational fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant emphasizes the principle that in small gravitational fields, free-falling particles behave as if in a gravity-free space, suggesting that special relativity can be applied in such local inertial frames.
  • Another participant agrees that while one feels a non-inertial force in an accelerating rocket, it does not imply the presence of gravity, allowing for the use of special relativity.
  • Concerns are raised about how to apply special relativity in accelerated frames, with one participant questioning the assertion that GR encompasses all accelerated frames, suggesting that SR already accounts for some of these scenarios.
  • Rindler coordinates are mentioned as a way to describe a rocket undergoing constant proper acceleration, while Born coordinates are referenced for rotating objects.
  • It is noted that the rest frame of an accelerating observer can be modeled as a sequence of instantaneous inertial frames in both SR and GR, but the distinction between gravity and general acceleration is debated.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the necessity of GR for describing accelerated frames, arguing that SR suffices and questioning the historical motivations behind Einstein's development of GR.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between general relativity and accelerated frames, with some asserting that GR is primarily about gravity while others argue that it also encompasses accelerated frames. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the extent to which SR and GR apply to these scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of their understanding regarding the application of special relativity to accelerated frames and the role of calculus in modeling forces that vary. There is also mention of the historical context of Einstein's work and its implications for the development of GR.

  • #61
RiccardoVen said:
it seems from here "even at a point" it's not possible to find such a chart. where am I wrong, please?

"flat at a point" is a statement about the metric tensor at that point, not the Riemann tensor.
I can find coordinates in which the components of the metric tensor at a point are diag(-1,1,1,1) but Riemann still won't vanish.
 
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  • #62
WannabeNewton said:
No this is incorrect. You cannot turn a curved metric into a flat one, ever, not even at a single event. Putting the metric into Minkowski form at a given event, and making the Christoffel symbols vanish there does not mean the metric is flat. The Riemann tensor will still be non-zero there. A handful of GR textbooks will use the terminology "locally flat coordinates" but this is a sacrilegious and downright incorrect term. The equivalence principle only says the gravitational field (= Christoffel symbols) will vanish at the chosen event and that the metric can be put into Minkowski form there. It does not say that the Riemann tensor (= tidal forces) will vanish because they certainly won't-they are a physical characterization of the curvature of space-time. The stipulation of neglecting tidal forces so as to apply the equivalence principle (i.e. the stipulation of a local inertial frame) simply means the Christoffel symbols vanish only at a single event as opposed to on an extended neighborhood of that event and the metric is only Minkowski at this single event. If we start moving away from this event and into an extended neighborhood of it then we will find non-zero terms in the Christoffel symbols and non-trivial terms in the metric that scale with the curvature (i.e. the tidal forces).

As for Gaussian normal coordinates, there is a slight distinction between coordinates and frames but for our purposes here yes a Gaussian normal system is the same thing as a freely falling frame (the local inertial frame has the added property that it is non-rotating which requires the notion of Fermi-Walker transport). One can find explicitly what the Riemann tensor is in this freely falling frame both at its origin (where the metric is Minkowski and the Christoffel symbols = gravitational field vanish) and near the origin up to second order in the characteristic curvature set by the Riemann tensor. See exercise 13.13 in MTW.

OK this clarifies a bit my doubt. It's really rally interesting the distinction you are making betweem gravity = Christoffel symbols and Riemann = tidal forces.
I've not read something like this in any book, and I think it's really clarifying things, at least a bit.
I've to work it out properly, since I think this view can really help me.

WannabeNewton said:
I can try to see if MTW has anything on that topic. Chapter 13 would be a good place to start.

OK, I will look at it as well.

WannabeNewton said:

Thanks for these one as well
 
  • #63
Nugatory said:
"flat at a point" is a statement about the metric tensor at that point, not the Riemann tensor.
I can find coordinates in which the components of the metric tensor at a point are diag(-1,1,1,1) but Riemann still won't vanish.

Yes that's exactly what WBN pointed out in the above post. This was leading confusion to me.
Not it's ok, thanks for your help.
 

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