News Georgian - South Ossetian - Russian Conflict

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The discussion centers on the U.S. response to the conflict between Georgia and Russia, with participants questioning whether the U.S. will mediate or support Georgia. There is a consensus that Georgia initiated the fighting by attacking separatist South Ossetia, complicating the situation as Russia intervened under the guise of protecting its citizens. Participants express frustration with the perceived inaction of NATO and Europe, suggesting they should take more responsibility in addressing the conflict. The debate also touches on the historical context of the region, including the implications of NATO expansion and the legacy of Soviet influence. Overall, the conversation reflects a complex interplay of geopolitical interests, national sovereignty, and the challenges of international intervention.
  • #91
Gokul43201 said:
Things can be more complex than a simple comparison of kill-rates may reveal.

True, but I am asking a simple question about the "2000" deaths number that has been ntossed about. I have read reports that say the majority of those were caused by Russia, others say Georgia.
 
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  • #92
meopemuk said:
...
I saw interviews with refugees who spent 3-4 days in basements and cellars hiding from the shelling and sniper fire. They told about Georgian atrocities. Like in any conflict of that sort, there could be some lies and inflated numbers. But, basically, I tend to believe these people.
...

I thik it is a bit interesting that you mention both Russian and South Ossetian accounts, but not the Georgian version of events. Have you seen any testimony from Georgian citizens and/or military?
 
  • #93
seycyrus said:
I thik it is a bit interesting that you mention both Russian and South Ossetian accounts, but not the Georgian version of events. Have you seen any testimony from Georgian citizens and/or military?

I don't have access to Georgian TV, but I suppose their version of events is well represented by the US media. All I saw there were statements by Saakhashvili that "Russian tanks are coming to Tbilisi" and "we will not kneel before occupiers". Have you seen any credible accounts of what happened in Tshinvali from the US/Georgian side? I have a feeling that they prefer to avoid this issue. They more like to discuss how Russia should be punished.
 
  • #94
meopemuk said:
I don't have access to Georgian TV, but I suppose their version of events is well represented by the US media. All I saw there were statements by Saakhashvili that "Russian tanks are coming to Tbilisi" and "we will not kneel before occupiers". Have you seen any credible accounts of what happened in Tshinvali from the US/Georgian side? I have a feeling that they prefer to avoid this issue. They more like to discuss how Russia should be punished.

Sure thing. I saw the footage of the bombing on both CNN and Fox websites.

The western media itself is NOT discussing how russia should be punished. Rather, they are covering certain political figures who are raising such issues. It would be much more suspicious if such stories were *not* covered.
 
  • #95
I believe that both the US and Russia have strategic interests in Georgia, in addition to the fact that Abkhazians and S. Ossetians would prefer to breakaway from Georgia, but then Georgians in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia would prefer to remain as part of Georgian territory.

The question is - who fired first? Georgian military or S. Ossetian militias, who are apparently looting in S. Ossetia and parts of Georgia?

It certainly appears that Abkazians and Ossetians have legitimate greivances with the Gerogian government in Tbilisi.

Violence and ethnic cleansing is not the solution.
 
  • #96
Astronuc said:
The question is - who fired first? Georgian military or S. Ossetian militias, who are apparently looting in S. Ossetia and parts of Georgia?

Probably there was fighting of relatively low intensity some time before this mess started, but the major escalation seems to have come from Georgian side:

"Authorities in the Georgian separatist region of South Ossetia said Wednesday night (last week) that the outskirts of the region's capital were coming under heavy fire from Georgian-controlled territory, Russian news agencies reported."

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...tml#cnnSTCText

Even if this is a statement coming from one of the involved parties, the subsequent events and reports seem to confirm it more or less.
 
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  • #97
Cyclovenom found this link (post #65):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_South_Ossetia_War

If you search for the German reaction you will find this:

"Deputy Foreign Minister Gernot Erler accused Georgia of violating international law by breaking a 1992 ceasefire agreement with Russia. Eckart von Klaeden, foreign policy spokesman for the Christian Democratic Union, said Russia was to blame."

Pick the one you like :biggrin:

Seriously, what I think is: The German deputy FM would not blame a gouvernment that is an outspoken friend of the west, if he would not really think that it is true. So in my book, yes the Georgian gouvernment started the RECENT events (I'm not saying there has been no bullying and harassment from Russia and / or South Ossetia before...)

P.S: I KNOW how easy it is to put crap on a wiki page, I will try to get some confirmation ASAP...

EDIT: Here you are:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3551206,00.html

Deputy FM: Georgia violated international law
His deputy, Gernot Erler, who is also a Social Democrat, went a step further. Talking to German public broadcaster NDR Info, Erler said Georgians had breached a 1992 ceasefire agreement struck with Russia over South Ossetia, monitored essentially by Russian peacekeepers.
"In this sense, it is also a question of a violation of international law as soon as you start to go down the road of military action," said Erler, who is a Social Democrat like Steinmeier.
He acknowledged prior provocation of the Georgian leadership from Russian-backed South Ossetia's separatists, but said he understood Russia's reaction. While South Ossetia remains sovereign Georgian territory, Russia has taken over the role of providing economic support to the region, Erler said. From a Russian perspective, peacekeeping troops have therefore
been attacked.
"It's an insane, bloody war which will surely do nothing to resolve the problem of this separatist Ossetian province," he said.
 
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  • #98
Oberst Villa said:
Even if this is a statement coming from one of the involved parties, the subsequent events and reports seem to confirm it more or less.

I don't see how the subsequent events confirm that version. Gerogian forces could have been responding to S. Ossettian fire.

Events still would have unfolded as they did.
 
  • #99
seycyrus said:
Actually, none of those, save the last, is nonsensical in the least.

I agree that "pipelines", "young democracy", "hegemony", etc are all important issues. My point is that they have only side relationship to this particular conflict. The major questions are whether or not Georgian leadership committed a war crime by ordering to bomb a city and whether or not Russian army overreracted to the events. My answers are "yes" and "no".
 
  • #100
Oberst Villa said:
Cyclovenom found this link (post #65):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_South_Ossetia_War

If you search for the German reaction you will find this:

"Deputy Foreign Minister Gernot Erler accused Georgia of violating international law by breaking a 1992 ceasefire agreement with Russia.

This quote is a bit confusing as, and doesn't clarify (even if taken at face value) what occurred between Georgia and S. Ossetia.

Could it not have transpired thusly?

S. Ossettian rebels fire at georgians.

Georgians fire back, inadvertently killing some Russian peacekeepers.

Russia points at dead Russians and claims that cease fire was broken by Georgia.
 
  • #101
meopemuk said:
...major questions are whether or not Georgian leadership committed a war crime by ordering to bomb a city and whether or not Russian army overreracted to the events. My answers are "yes" and "no".

But so far on the first issue, we have only seen footage of Russians and S. Ossettians claiming that the bombing was the initial strike.

On the second issue. I have seen reports that Russians were continuing to operate inside Georgia and strike at targets, even *after* the cease fire was signed.
 
  • #102
How it started - From the BBC
THURSDAY 7 AUGUST

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".

The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm
 
  • #103
seycyrus said:
Russia points at dead Russians and claims that cease fire was broken by Georgia.

The accusation that Georgia broke the cease fire came from the GERMAN deputy foreign minister, for all I know he is NOT a Russian. If you have other information, please contact the MAD (Militärischer Abschirmdienst, German Counterintelligence) as soon as possible:

http://www.mad.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/mad
 
  • #104
Oberst Villa said:
The accusation that Georgia broke the cease fire came from the GERMAN deputy foreign minister, for all I know he is NOT a Russian. If you have other information, please contact the MAD (Militärischer Abschirmdienst, German Counterintelligence) as soon as possible:
http://www.mad.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/mad

Why the inability to read the entirety of a post and consider the broad message?

Please note, that the specifics of the cease-fire violation were not given. I was giving a version of events that might have transpired. This was indicated by my phrase "Couldn't it have happened...?"

The technical violation might be viewed as being mediated by intent on the Georgian side

If you want to nitpick, I'll note that virtually all accounts indicate that sniper fire, mortar attacks, kidnappings etc. etc. have been ongoing from both sides for the past year, if not more. Certainly all of those constitute a violation of the cease fire.
 
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  • #105
Gokul43201 said:
Were there more deaths in NY/Washington than there were in Afghanistan/Iraq? Have there been more deaths in Israel due to suicide bombings than there have been in Palestine and/or Lebanon, due to Israeli retaliation?

Things can be more complex than a simple comparison of kill-rates may reveal.
South Ossetia claims between 1600 - 2000 civilians killed, Russia says it lost 74 troops killed whilst Georgia claims to have lost a total of 175 civilians and troops. Even allowing for S Ossetia exaggerating it's losses if these figures are even near correct Russia let Georgia off lightly.

In regard to those crying foul because Russia attacked outside the conflict zone; as I remember, NATO fairly hammered Belgrade, which was many miles outside the conflict zone, to persuade the Serbs to pull out of Kosovo so it is hypocritical to say the least to see those same countries condemn Russia for doing a lot less than they did themselves and with far less legal justification. And whereas Russia attacked only military targets NATO attacked soft targets such as TV studios and Serbian gov't administrative buildings, as I recall NATO even bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade

During a live interview an English reporter asked the Georgian president straight out if he had launched the attack on S Ossetia at the US's instigation. In reply he waffled on for 5 minutes without saying anything and then terminated the press conference.

Bush's supposed shock and horror at the breach of sovereign borders and the resulting collateral damage in Georgia is almost funny when one considers his illegal invasion of Iraq the enormous amount of structural collateral damage and the colossal loss of innocent lives the US inflicted on Iraq. Again not so long ago Bush was 110% behind Israel when it transgressed Lebanons borders killing over 1000 innocent Lebanese civilians as it destroyed infrastructure and bombed apartments in Beirut whilst poisoning the agricultural land and villages for years to come with cluster bombs. All that for far less justification then Russia's intervention.

Russia certainly doesn't need lessons in how to behave on the international stage from a psychopath like Bush or McCain for that matter with his highly paid Georgian lobbyist foreign affairs advisor.
 
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  • #106
seycyrus said:
This quote is a bit confusing as, and doesn't clarify (even if taken at face value) what occurred between Georgia and S. Ossetia.

Could it not have transpired thusly?

S. Ossettian rebels fire at georgians.

Georgians fire back, inadvertently killing some Russian peacekeepers.

Russia points at dead Russians and claims that cease fire was broken by Georgia.

The question is not who formally broke the cease fire. There was a sporadic fire from both sides of the border for weeks before the event. The real question is who shelled Tshinvali and caused thousands of civilian deaths (1500-2000 by different unverified accounts)? I doubt that small contingent of Russian peacekeepers in the area could do that, simply because they didn't have the heavy artillery required for that. Regular Russian troops arrived in the area after the city was destroyed.
 
  • #107
seycyrus said:
True, but I am asking a simple question about the "2000" deaths number that has been ntossed about. I have read reports that say the majority of those were caused by Russia, others say Georgia.
Please provide a link wherein it states Russia caused most of these deaths as even the most pro-Georgian reports I have seen have not made that claim.

Former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze said Saakashvili ``was caught in his own trap'' in the conflict with Russia.

``When they ask why the Russians are destroying our strategic facilities, I ask why we shelled Tskhinvali and killed people there,'' Shevardnadze said in an interview. ``I don't want to criticize Saakashvili, but it's clear he wasn't ready and should have known that Russia has a lot of reason to defend the region, such as the presence of its citizens.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a7CjkzoE3sYA&refer=home
 
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  • #108
meopemuk said:
The question is not who formally broke the cease fire. There was a sporadic fire from both sides of the border for weeks before the event. The real question is who shelled Tshinvali and caused thousands of civilian deaths (1500-2000 by different unverified accounts)? I doubt that small contingent of Russian peacekeepers in the area could do that, simply because they didn't have the heavy artillery required for that. Regular Russian troops arrived in the area after the city was destroyed.
The question I'm most interested in is why on the night of Aug 7 following Georgia's attack when Russia asked for an emergency meeting of the UNSC to demand a ceasefire the US and Britain refused to back a resolution demanding one. It was only when Russia sent in it's tanks and it became obvious their dog had lost that suddenly the US and it's lapdog Britain with indecent haste reversed course and began demanding a ceasefire themselves.
 
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  • #109
seycyrus said:
The western media itself is NOT discussing how russia should be punished. Rather, they are covering certain political figures who are raising such issues. It would be much more suspicious if such stories were *not* covered.

I basically agree with that. However, I also think that the press could be less accomodating to the US administration and ask tougher questions rather than follow the common line: "Georgia is the victim. Russia must be punished." For example they could obtain tapes with refugee's interviews from Russian TV stations and show them on the air. From these interviews the viewers may learn a bit more about the real events than from Saakhashvili's press conferences.
 
  • #110
And meanwhile, Russian forces continue to move towards Tbilisi, violating their own cease-fire agreement. As reported on CNN,FOX,MSNBC.
 
  • #111
Art said:
Please provide a link wherein it states Russia caused most of these deaths as even the most pro-Georgian reports I have seen have not made that claim.

I'll get on it. Maybe I just read it in one of these forums, where it was stated that the infamous "western media" reported the toll, in a report showcasing Russia as the villain, without identifying the aggressor thus leading speculation in that direction.

Edit: Can't find anything to back up my claim. I retract it with apologies. Western media never tried to blame Russia for the large death toll.
 
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  • #112
seycyrus said:
And meanwhile, Russian forces continue to move towards Tbilisi, violating their own cease-fire agreement. As reported on CNN,FOX,MSNBC.

Are you referring to this article?:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/13/georgia.russia.war/index.html

"Bush said he was told the Russian military had blocked Georgia's major east-west highway and had soldiers at the main port at Poti, and there were reports that some ships had been attacked.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that there were no Russian troops in Poti but that there were soldiers on the outskirts of Gori and Senaki, to the west, according to the Russian news agency Interfax. Senaki is south of another separatist province, Abkhazia.

"They are staying there to neutralize the large arsenal of weapons and other military hardware in the areas of Gori and Senaki. These arsenals remain unguarded. Apparently those who guarded them fled," Lavrov said.

He added that Russia's operations are "aimed at ensuring the peace-enforcement operation in respect to the Georgian side, which violates all of its obligations," and his office denied that Russia had violated the cease-fire."


I may add the following info (translation is mine) from

http://www.nr2.ru/incidents/191082.html

"Russia returns Gori to Georgia. Tbilisi. August 14 (New region, Olga Rad'ko). Russian troops will be removed from Gori on Thursday. The control of the city will be taken by Georgian police. This statement was made yesterday by the head of Georgian security council Alexander Lomaia. He said that Gori will be patrolled by Russian military at night from Wednesday to Thursday, however in the Morning of August 14 Georgian police is going to return to the city, AFP reports. According to "Interfax", the information about the exit from Gori was confirmed by the Russian side. The representative of the Russian Defence Ministry general-major Vjacheslav Borisov said that Russian troops moved from outskirts of Georgian Gori in the direction of Tchinvali. "Russian soldiers will stay in the Gori region for another two days in order to perform certain procedures to transfer the control to Georgian law-enforcement agencies, after that the troops will leave."

In the beginning of this week Gori inhabitans were forced to flee the city when the news came that Russian troops are moving in the direction of the city, reminds "lenta.ru". City administration and police officers were also rushly evacuated. Georgian side insisted that Russian armored vehicles entered the city. Russian military, in its turn, said that troops took their positions on the outskirts. Later RF Defence ministry reported that Russian soldiers are forced to support order in the city abandoned by its administration, including distribution of food to the remaining inhabitans."

I don't think Bush makes his misleading statements out of ignorance. Of course, he may not trust Russian websites. But he has spy satellites, AVAX airplanes, drones and what not. So, he should know the real situation better. The only explanation is that he tries to shield his buddy Misha from deserved prosecution.
 
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  • #114
seycyrus said:
No, I am referring to the commentary and reports I am watching on TV right now.
I just heard on NBC a few minutes ago that while Rice and Bush have made this claim categorically, the Pentagon have said that they have no conclusive evidence of any further movement of Russian forces.
 
  • #115
Gokul43201 said:
I just heard on NBC a few minutes ago that while Rice and Bush have made this claim categorically, the Pentagon have said that they have no conclusive evidence of any further movement of Russian forces.

Let me back off for a second. I am not claiming Bush or Condi made any such statements. I am claiming the news correspondents, the people on Lou Dobbs for instance, are making the claims.
 
  • #116
seycyrus said:
No, I am referring to the commentary and reports I am watching on TV right now.

I stopped watching US TV after listening to the today's interview with distinguished former Secretaries of State M-me Albright and Mr. Eagleberger on NPR's "News hour", which is normally rather balanced. It is just full of twisted facts and propaganda. What a shame!

Who created all this hysteria? Bush advisers? Is it going to help McCain to be elected? I am not a fan of "conspiracy theories", but I can't help thinking about them.
 
  • #117
This might be of interest -

James Traub On The Russia-Georgia Conflict
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93561996
Fresh Air from WHYY, August 13, 2008 · Russia and Georgia have signed a cease-fire, but the conflict continues. Journalist James Traub discusses the latest developments.

Traub regularly contributes to The New York Times Magazine. On Sunday, the paper published his analysis of the conflict and its causes.

Taunting the Bear
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html
The hostilities between Russia and Georgia that erupted on Friday over the breakaway province of South Ossetia look, in retrospect, almost absurdly over-determined. For years, the Russians have claimed that Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili, has been preparing to retake the disputed regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and have warned that they would use force to block such a bid. Mr. Saakashvili, for his part, describes today’s Russia as a belligerent power ruthlessly pressing at its borders, implacably hostile to democratic neighbors like Georgia and Ukraine. He has thrown in his lot with the West, and has campaigned ardently for membership in NATO. Vladimir V. Putin, Russia’s former president and current prime minister, has said Russia could never accept a NATO presence in the Caucasus.

The border between Georgia and Russia, in short, has been the driest of tinder; the only question was where the fire would start.

It’s scarcely clear yet how things will stand between the two when the smoke clears. But it’s safe to say that while Russia has a massive advantage in firepower, Georgia, an open, free-market, more-or-less-democratic nation that sees itself as a distant outpost of Europe, enjoys a decisive rhetorical and political edge. In recent conversations there, President Saakashvili compared Georgia to Czechoslovakia in 1938, trusting the West to save it from a ravenous neighbor. “If Georgia fails,” he said to me darkly two months ago, “it will send a message to everyone that this path doesn’t work.”

During a 10-day visit to Georgia in June, I heard the 1938 analogy again and again, as well as another to 1921, when Bolshevik troops crushed Georgia’s thrilling, and brief, first experiment with liberal rule.

. . . .
On the NPR program, Traub indicated that Saakashvili's decision to shell Tskhinvali was really stupid. That was an open invitation for the Russians to retaliate, which they did.

I beginning to wonder if 'ineptitude' is universal among politicians. It's just that some are more inept than others.
 
  • #118
meopemuk said:
I stopped watching US TV after listening to the today's interview with distinguished former Secretaries of State M-me Albright and Mr. Eagleberger on NPR's "News hour", which is normally rather balanced. It is just full of twisted facts and propaganda. What a shame!

Who created all this hysteria? Bush advisers? Is it going to help McCain to be elected? I am not a fan of "conspiracy theories", but I can't help thinking about them.

You are claiming that Bush or perhaps McCain is behind Albright's, Eagleberger's and NPRs reporting of the situation?

Perhaps the hysteria is being created by the tanks continuing to roll towards Tbilisi?
 
  • #119
seycyrus said:
You are claiming that Bush or perhaps McCain is behind Albright's, Eagleberger's and NPRs reporting of the situation?

Perhaps the hysteria is being created by the tanks continuing to roll towards Tbilisi?

Remember "weapons of mass destruction" hysteria before the Iraq invasion? Everybody sang to the same tune. Now they regret that. Maybe there was (and still is) some mass hypnosis installation near Washington DC?
 
  • #120
Why is it that Saakashvili actions are repeatedly described at stupid, ill-reasoned or unwise, rather than evil, horrible or despicable? He did raze a town and kill many hundreds of civilians, didn't he?
 

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