News Georgian - South Ossetian - Russian Conflict

[AhmedEzz]

Wow, I thought the Brits were kissing the US's butts...hmm, maybe this Gordon Brown is not a puppy dog as Blair used to be.

 

[seycyrus]

Western "independent" media looks laughable. Saakhashvili's paranoidal statements are reported immediately without verification, .

I don't see the problem with this as long as they are identified as his statements. If a world leader is publicly making statements, I want to know what those statements are.

...They (the media) try to avoid the central issue of who destroyed Tshinvali by all possible means: "cannot be independently verified", "... It is good that some Western reporters now reached the conflict zone on the South Ossetian side ...

They were exactly correct in saying that the reports could not be *independently* verified. State controlled russian media is not an independent source. You do note that now they have people on the ground, and are able to cover the stories firsthand.

This "western media" junk is laughable.

Just because news sources that are well known for their past criticism of the Bush Admin. didn't immediately swallow everything that the state controlled russian media was putting out, they are labelled as biased.

Meanwhile, for an balanced perspective, let's look at a few reports from the russian controlled media that were even remotely critical of the Russian handling of the situation.

Oh wait, those don't exist.

I guess in a country with a population of 140 mil. everyone totally agrees on this issue! Ha!

 

[AhmedEzz]

In my opinion, you are not looking at the big picture. Something similar would have happened one way or the other. It is not who shot the first shot or who started this, it is something like a hidden war between Russia, EU & US. Russia just added a card that might be to its favor if it is played correctly. The US wants to debunk this card, it starts a media propaganda and tries different things to put this card down. For example, put political pressure on Russia, direct the UN to put more pressure on Russia, get someone like Sarkozy to put more pressure on Russia, support Georgian forces and supply them with weapons and so and so...I think the US might even call forces into Georgia.

This is the Russians not bending over to Americans (unlike some people) and Americans trying to neutralise the Russian danger by implementing its missile-defense programme.

*this is my personal opinion*

just so that you guys know, i am not talking like madman or throwing accusations:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7563182.stm

 

[seycyrus]

just so that you guys know, i am not talking like madman or throwing accusations:

I think you sufficiently documented your earlier post as being an opinion.

But to address what I believe is the intent of your post, I believe that this whole scenario will strengthen US relations with the other former Soviet countries in the region.

Russia might think that they have "won" by including the right to stay in the country for 6 months to ensure security or whatnot, but the surrounding countries will certainly be watching. Any presence by the Russians over what those countries deem as a reasonable amount of time, will bring them closer to the US.

 

[meopemuk]

Just because news sources that are well known for their past criticism of the Bush Admin. didn't immediately swallow everything that the state controlled russian media was putting out, they are labelled as biased.

But they were happy to swallow Saakhashvili's lies each time he spewed them. Headlines like "Russian tanks are coming" go well with US public. Any kind words toward Russia raise eyebrows. That's how I explain the bias.

I guess in a country with a population of 140 mil. everyone totally agrees on this issue! Ha!

You may be surprised but you won't find many Russians who disagree about this conflict. Trust me. Of course, even in the US there are wacko's who explain 9/11 as Bush conspiracy. I can imagine that similar type views (i.e., that present conflict was started by Putin) exist in Russia. But they are tiny minority.

 

[seycyrus]

But they were happy to swallow Saakhashvili's lies each time he spewed them.

"Report" is not the same thing as "swallow".

Headlines like "Russian tanks are coming" go well with US public.

Are there not tanks inside Georgian territory as we speak?

Any kind words toward Russia raise eyebrows.

Nah. Kind words spoken by the russian controlled media in the absence of *any* criticism by that same media, raises eyebrows. As well it should.

I can imagine that similar type views (i.e., that present conflict was started by Putin) exist in Russia. But they are tiny minority.

And to what media source do those who have these minority views go to, to express them, and see them printed or broadcast?

All over the "western media" I have seen anti-US allegations about the cause of this whole controversy.

Show me the analog, in the russian controlled media.

 

[meopemuk]

And to what media source do those who have these minority views go to, to express them, and see them printed or broadcast?

All over the "western media" I have seen anti-US allegations about the cause of this whole controversy.

Show me the analog, in the russian controlled media.

I regularly browse Russian information websites, and I see all kind of stuff there including statements of Western leaders, links to CNN, BBC, Georgian press, etc. Russia does not try to block information (like China, for example). You probably think that Russia today is the same as Soviet Union 30 years ago. No, it isn't.

As for opponents to the current regime, the most vocal and pro-Western player is Garry Kasparov. He issued an "official statement" regarding these events.

http://www.theotherrussia.org/2008/...ion-on-the-war-in-georgia-official-statement/

He does blame Russian leadership for inconsistent policy in the Caucasus, however, he does not deny that Georgian full-scale attack was the trigger:

"Why, after an attack on Russian peacekeepers by the superior forces of the opponent in Tskhinvali, did the official establishment stand in a state of stupor for several hours, and didn’t rush to provide military assistance?"

From what I heard, immediately after the attack, Russians tried to get a resolution of the UN Security Council in order to stop Georgians by diplomatic means. After this attempt failed, there was no other option but to use an overwhelming force.

 

[baywax]

"U.S. President George W. Bush accused Russia of bullying ex-Soviet Georgia, saying: "Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080815/world/us_russia_georgia

This is an indication of either total hypocrisy or Alzheimer's Disease when you consider the tactics used to pull off the invasion of Iraq.

 

[Oberst Villa]

Mikhail Gorbatchev, talking with Larry King, puts the blame for the fighting on Georgia:

"This was the use of sophisticated weapons against a small town, against a sleeping people. This was a barbaric assault."

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/index.html

 

[lisab]

"U.S. President George W. Bush accused Russia of bullying ex-Soviet Georgia, saying: "Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080815/world/us_russia_georgia

This is an indication of either total hypocrisy or Alzheimer's Disease when you consider the tactics used to pull off the invasion of Iraq.

He has a severe irony deficiency.

 

[baywax]

He has a severe irony deficiency.

 

[Gokul43201]

If you missed the Daily Show episode that first covered this conflict, you can thank me for this:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/...ign-countries-is-fineunless-theyre-in-europe/

Watch it - it's priceless!

 

[meopemuk]

Any presence by the Russians over what those countries deem as a reasonable amount of time, will bring them closer to the US.

The truth of the matter is that Georgian army, police, and all authorities ran from Gori and Senaki leaving behing huge amount of ready-to-use military equipment, ammunition, etc. It would be insane to leave this area without any kind of supervision. Can you imagine if some angry person (and now there are many angry people in the area, both Georgians and Ossetians) decided to take a ride around the neighborhood in one of those tanks? I heard that Russians are exploding ammunition dumps in the area.

Another problem is that many Ossetian militiamen entered Georgia proper behind Russian army. They are not well educated on the rules of engagement and hardly obey anyone's orders. I don't think they deserve a lot of blame, because they simply took weapons to defend their families and homes. There are reports of looting. There could be some revenge killings as well. I also heard a report that Russian military commanders shot dead two looters. Nobody wants the Ossetia-Georgia border to become a site of mayhem, like in Bagdad after US invasion.

Just be patient. When the dust settles, Russians will transfer the control over to Georgian authorities. This would take a couple of days, I think. You'll continue hearing about "ceasefire violations" from the US media during this time. But it is better not to pay attention.

 

[WarPhalange]

Did anybody post this yet?

H8XI2Chc6uQ[/youtube]

 

[meopemuk]

You can find the Russian side of the story (in English) and a lot of video footage not shown by Western media on www.russiatoday.com[/URL]

 

[roam]

Having said that and not to take away from America's role it is very likely that all of Europe would have ended up under Stalinist Russia were it not for the US forces.

There is no such thing as a "Stalinist" to begin with. If you are referring to the political ideology used in the Soviet Union during Stalin's era, it's Marxism-Leninism.

Stalin was not the only one in power in the USSR. He was the general secretary of the party. There were many others involved as well but as you may know 'big guy always gets the sh*t...'

 

[Gokul43201]

lUMUGlJDdOA[/youtube] According ...cated . . . lawyer, Mikhail [i]Sashkavili[/i]".

 

[AhmedEzz]

This just shows one why this MCcain cannot be a president. Is there anything coming from the office of Obama?

 

[Astronuc]

Q&A: Russia-Georgia Conflict Has Deep Roots
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93525210

What triggered the current fighting?

It began as a series of sniper-fire incidents and clashes between the South Ossetian militia and Georgian army troops during the first week in August. By Aug. 7, Georgian President Saakashvili was charging that the South Ossetians were using heavy weapons that had been brought into the area in violation of the cease-fire. Civilians began to flee Tskhinvali, the town that serves as South Ossetia's capital. On Aug. 8, Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to capture the city.

Russia responded with airstrikes on Georgian positions, not just in South Ossetia but also in Abkhazia, where Georgian troops still had a foothold in the Kodori Gorge region. Russia has said it is only seeking to restore stability to the two regions, but as its troops advanced out of the separatist regions into undisputed Georgian territory, President Bush accused Russia of seeking to crush the Georgian military and trigger the overthrow of Saakashvili's government.

Hmmm. How should a nation or law enforcement agency respond to sniper fire?

Abkhazia had a sizable population of ethnic Georgians who were forcibly expelled from the region during the fighting in the early 1990s. Human Rights Watch reported that the Abkhaz separatists committed widespread atrocities against Georgians, including massacres, rapes, torture and ethnic cleansing. The findings were corroborated in a 1994 country report from the U.S. State Department.

There are still pockets of ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia, and Georgia asserts that it must protect them from the same fate.

How should this matter be resolved?


But then - Lack Of Western Action On Georgia Reflects History - Daniel Schorr
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93510044

All Things Considered, August 11, 2008 · Western powers have so far failed to support Georgia in its conflict with Russia over the breakaway region of South Ossetia. It is the latest historical example of the failure of great powers to support little countries when the chips are down.

 

[russ_watters]

According to McCain, this is the first serious international crisis since the end of the Cold War! Really? What does he consider the first Gulf War, Kosovo, 9/11, the Iraq War, the genocide in Darfur, the North Korean test firing of Taepodongs near Japanese waters, Israeli attacks in Lebanon and Iran's ongoing UN confrontation (let's even ignore the global food and fuel crises)?

I probably would have chosen different words, but I see his point. None of those was serious enough that there was a risk of a lare war between nuclear superpowers.

The first Gulf War was probably the largest conflict since Vietnam in terms of the number of troops employed, but it was also relatively easy and manageable. One caveat, though: the Iraqi firing of Scuds at Israel was a somewhat serious situation because if Israel had responded, there was a possibility of the entire region erupting in conflict.

Those humanitarian conflicts are not serious in terms of their difficulty in dealing with them. We simply choose not to. I remember reading an analysis that the Rwanda conflict could have been stopped with a disturbingly small force. They are also not mostly not international crises.

Georgia is a US ally who is trying to get into NATO. If we're serious about our commitment to them, we should be sending troops there to fight the Russians. But we're not. Why?

 

[Gokul43201]

Is there anything coming from the office of Obama?

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/04/21/statement_of_senator_obama_on.php :

Georgia is a sovereign country, a member of the United Nations, and a close friend of the United States. I welcome the desire by Georgia, as well as Ukraine, to seek closer ties with NATO.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's decree establishing closer governmental and legal relations with the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, without the approval of the Georgian government, is deeply troubling and contrary to Russia's obligations as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Putin's declaration falls short of recognizing Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent countries, but these pledges of closer ties to these two regions threatens the Georgian government and emboldens the secessionist forces in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
...

http://www.barackobama.com/2008/07/23/statement_of_senator_obama_on_1.php :

Over the last several weeks, Russia and Georgia have been engaged in a steadily more dangerous confrontation over two secessionist regions of Georgia -- South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Although these territories are located within Georgia's internationally-recognized borders, the Russian government seems determined to challenge Georgia's territorial integrity in both places. Developments took an especially provocative turn several days ago when four Russian warplanes violated Georgian airspace close to the Georgian capital for forty minutes.
...
Only a political settlement can resolve the conflicts over Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia needs to roll back the aggressive actions it has taken in the last three months. The Georgian government must resist the temptation to be drawn into a military conflict. All parties must make clear that they are committed to a diplomatic settlement and will not seek to resolve this dispute by force.

The international community must become more active in trying to defuse this confrontation. The fact that Russia has become a party to the conflict means that Russia is not qualified to play the role of a mediator. The visit to Georgia by German Foreign Minister Steinmeier this week was a positive, important step towards establishing a larger role for the European Union. The Euro-Atlantic community must speak with one voice in helping to promote peace in this volatile region. As part of the de-escalation process, a multilateral peacekeeping force must eventually replace the Russian peacekeeping force currently deployed in Abkhazia.

See also: https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1834123&postcount=88

McCain's "Today we are all Georgians" speech
(Looks like McCain has now become a really good friend of Saakashvili - note how he refers to him as Mischa. And don't forget that in 2005, McCain nominated Mischa for the Nobel Peace Prize.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/us/politics/12mccain.html

And finally, note this about McCain's business partner and foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann: Wiki: Randy Scheunemann

While the foreign affairs advisor to Republican presidential candidate John McCain, Scheunemann was also a registered foreign agent (lobbyist) for the Republic of Georgia[5] [6]

On April 17, 2008, McCain spoke on the phone with Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili about Russian efforts to gain leverage over two of Georgia's troubled provinces. That same day, McCain issued a public statement condemning Russia and expressing strong support for the Georgian position. Also on that same day, Georgia signed a new, $200,000 lobbying contract with Scheunemann's firm, Orion Strategies. Scheunemann remained with Orion Strategies until May 15, when the McCain campaign imposed a tough new anti-lobbyist policy and he was required to separate himself from the company.

More here: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG-8I87S5w4QP8CPIrx2wh8irqmgD92HH3M00

And during what McCain refers to as probably the most serious international crisis since the Cold War, where is George Bush? He's on a 2-week vacation, in his ranch in Texas, after a week-long visit to Beijing. Maybe the White House doesn't share McCain's opinion on this?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-08-16-bush-georgia-comment_N.htm

 

[Gokul43201]

Well, none of those was serious enough that there was a risk of world war.

It's always possible to make a situation serious enough that there arises the risk of a world war.

Georgia is a US ally who is trying to get into NATO. If we're serious our commitment to them, we should be sending troops there to fight the Russians. But we're not. Why?

Because that would be exactly the kind of thing that could escalate the situation towards a World War?

 

[AhmedEzz]

I probably would have chosen different words, but I see his point. None of those was serious enough that there was a risk of a lare war between nuclear superpowers.

The first Gulf War was probably the largest conflict since Vietnam in terms of the number of troops employed, but it was also relatively easy and manageable. One caveat, though: the Iraqi firing of Scuds at Israel was a somewhat serious situation because if Israel had responded, there was a possibility of the entire region erupting in conflict.

Those humanitarian conflicts are not serious in terms of their difficulty in dealing with them. We simply choose not to. I remember reading an analysis that the Rwanda conflict could have been stopped with a disturbingly small force. They are also not mostly not international crises.

Georgia is a US ally who is trying to get into NATO. If we're serious about our commitment to them, we should be sending troops there to fight the Russians. But we're not. Why?

Sorry man but your words are false in my opinion. If your daughter or wife was in any of those so-called "not serious" wars, I bet you wouldn't have said that. The only people who are affected by those not serious wars are innocent civilians who happened to be there. and now you want to put US forces in front of Russian forces? I hope Bush is not stupid enough to do this.

Presidents will wake the next morning and still be presidents, safe, unharmed and healthy. However, those living in conflict zones don't if they might even wake up the next morning. This is why MCcain should not be voted for, he will only bring war and destruction to the world. Unlike Obama who does not have war on the top of his to-do list.

 

[Gokul43201]

Statement released by McCain campaign:

"The Obama campaign's attacks on Randy Scheunemann are disgraceful. Mr. Scheunemann proudly represented a small democracy that is one of our closest allies in a very dangerous region. Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin. The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Senator Obama's judgment--it answers them."

Wow!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=5552954&page=1

 

[Evo]

It seems Obama is echoing George Bush and McCain is the odd man out.

This article was back on August 9th.

Bush Calls for Peace in Georgia

The United States is sending a top envoy to the region and asking both sides to stand down their military forces.

Additionally, Bush spoke to the presidents of Russia and Georgia today asking them to stand down. Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili, announced he is bringing 2,000 troops home from Iraq.

President Bush urged talks between the two nations.

“The United States is working with our European partners to launch international mediation and with the parties to restart their dialogue,” Bush said. “Russia needs to support these efforts so that peace can be restored as quickly as possible.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/bush-calls-for.html

 

[Oberst Villa]

Georgia is a US ally who is trying to get into NATO. If we're serious about our commitment to them, we should be sending troops there to fight the Russians. But we're not. Why?

The most important word here is "trying". As Georgia is not part of NATO yet, NATO has no obligation but to support Georgia with generous amounts of hot air.

By the way: You all can say "Thank You !" to France and to my country (Germany). Without us, all of you might have perished in a thermonuclear war

(from April this year):

"The first day of the NATO summit saw France and Germany combine forces to thwart the membership ambitions of Ukraine and Georgia. They stood firm in their opposition despite the mounting pressure from US President George W. Bush to admit the two former Soviet republics."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545078,00.html

 

[Evo]

The most important word here is "trying". As Georgia is not part of NATO yet, NATO has no obligation but to support Georgia with generous amounts of hot air.

By the way: You all can say "Thank You !" to France and to my country (Germany). Without us, all of you might have perished in a thermonuclear war

(from April this year):

"The first day of the NATO summit saw France and Germany combine forces to thwart the membership ambitions of Ukraine and Georgia. They stood firm in their opposition despite the mounting pressure from US President George W. Bush to admit the two former Soviet republics."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,545078,00.html

If Georgia had been admitted into NATO, Russia might not have acted so boldly. France and Germany may be to blame for what has happened. Just the other side of the coin.

 

[baywax]

Cynicism and criticisms aside, I am more than amazed at how fast the good old US got humanitarian aid into the Georgian capital. I wonder how many black ops were packed into some of those crates.

 

[AhmedEzz]

If Georgia had been admitted into NATO, Russia might not have acted so boldly. France and Germany may be to blame for what has happened. Just the other side of the coin.

Not really, Russians would not have simply sat down and watched while the US is trying to put watchdogs at its doorstep. Russians would have also reacted (maybe even worse than this). Trust me, don't over-estimate your powers.

 

[Oberst Villa]

France and Germany may be to blame for what has happened.

What a nice way of saying "Thank You !"

Seriously, you might even be right here, I don't know. But IF it is really true that Georgia started all this by killing Russian peacekeepers and citizens, then Russia HAD to react by military means (but perhaps they would have stayed out of Georgia proper ?). OK, in all probability no thermonuclear exchange would have resulted, but even the thought of a "low level" shooting war between Russia and NATO is very frightening !

 

[Evo]

What a nice way of saying "Thank You !"

Seriously, you might even be right here, I don't know. But IF it is really true that Georgia started all this by killing Russian peacekeepers and citizens, then Russia HAD to react by military means (but perhaps they would have stayed out of Georgia proper ?). OK, in all probability no thermonuclear exchange would have resulted, but even the thought of a "low level" shooting war between Russia and NATO is very frightening !

I have French nationality, BTW.

Condoleeza Rice said that very shortly the facts about what happened will be divulged. It will be interesting to see.

 

[baywax]

The truth of the matter is that Georgian army, police, and all authorities ran from Gori and Senaki leaving behing huge amount of ready-to-use military equipment, ammunition, etc. It would be insane to leave this area without any kind of supervision. Can you imagine if some angry person (and now there are many angry people in the area, both Georgians and Ossetians) decided to take a ride around the neighborhood in one of those tanks? I heard that Russians are exploding ammunition dumps in the area.

Another problem is that many Ossetian militiamen entered Georgia proper behind Russian army. They are not well educated on the rules of engagement and hardly obey anyone's orders. I don't think they deserve a lot of blame, because they simply took weapons to defend their families and homes. There are reports of looting. There could be some revenge killings as well. I also heard a report that Russian military commanders shot dead two looters. Nobody wants the Ossetia-Georgia border to become a site of mayhem, like in Bagdad after US invasion.

Just be patient. When the dust settles, Russians will transfer the control over to Georgian authorities. This would take a couple of days, I think. You'll continue hearing about "ceasefire violations" from the US media during this time. But it is better not to pay attention.

Excellent commentary. Thank you!

 

[TVP45]

I probably would have chosen different words, but I see his point. None of those was serious enough that there was a risk of a lare war between nuclear superpowers.

The first Gulf War was probably the largest conflict since Vietnam in terms of the number of troops employed, but it was also relatively easy and manageable. One caveat, though: the Iraqi firing of Scuds at Israel was a somewhat serious situation because if Israel had responded, there was a possibility of the entire region erupting in conflict.

Those humanitarian conflicts are not serious in terms of their difficulty in dealing with them. We simply choose not to. I remember reading an analysis that the Rwanda conflict could have been stopped with a disturbingly small force. They are also not mostly not international crises.

Georgia is a US ally who is trying to get into NATO. If we're serious about our commitment to them, we should be sending troops there to fight the Russians. But we're not. Why?

In the simplest case, Russ, we don't have any more troops. I suppose we could scrape up several thousand in a pinch but that would assure our being defeated in detail.

At the end of the day, our only serious military option is a full-scale pre-emptive nuclear strike.

Where the heck is Barbara Tuchman now that we need her?

 

[meopemuk]

Just your interest, this was recently printed in Pravda:

Just wanted to mention that "Pravda" is a newspaper of Russian Communist Party, which is in opposition to the government. Although this commentary generally reflects the feelings of many Russians, the choice of words is often over-the-top. You won't find this kind of inflammatory rhetorics in most Russian publications.

If I may summarize the sentiment of the majority: they grief the loss of life of thousands innocent people (civilians and peacekeepers), they are proud of Russian Army who did a good job of restoring peace, and they are genuinely surprisied to hear harsh criticism in their address from Western politicians and media.

 

[Evo]

Hi William our rules do not allow unsubstantiated posts or opinion stated as fact.

Please post links to accredited news sources to back this up.

Just start a new post with the information needed to validate and I will put your post back up with the links. Thanks

 

[WmLambert]

The instigation is contested. The Georgians did attack, but there are reports from South Ossetia that they did so to protect Georgians being brutalized by Peacekeepers. The set-up by the Russians make it unlikely that Georgia did anything but a knee-jerk reaction to events already underway. Time will tell.

 

[Evo]

Just wanted to mention that "Pravda" is a newspaper of Russian Communist Party, which is in opposition to the government. Although this commentary generally reflects the feelings of many Russians, the choice of words is often over-the-top. You won't find this kind of inflammatory rhetorics in most Russian publications.

If I may summarize the sentiment of the majority: they grief the loss of life of thousands innocent people (civilians and peacekeepers), they are proud of Russian Army who did a good job of restoring peace, and they are genuinely surprisied to hear harsh criticism in their address from Western politicians and media.

Thanks Meopunk.

Also Pravda is not allowed as a source on this forum.

 

[Gokul43201]

Just wanted to mention that "Pravda" is a newspaper of Russian Communist Party, which is in opposition to the government. Although this commentary generally reflects the feelings of many Russians, the choice of words is often over-the-top. You won't find this kind of inflammatory rhetorics in most Russian publications.

Pravda falls squarely under the category of what, in the west, is called a tabloid. That makes it not a reliable source.

Also, much of this discussion seems to accept the good vs. bad dichotomy, and seeks to establish which labels to attach to which country. Why?

 

[wildman]

Thanks Meopunk.

Also Pravda is not allowed as a source on this forum.

Why not? Pravda is short on facts, but it does show the emotions in Russia.

 

[Gokul43201]

Why not? Pravda is short on facts, but it does show the emotions in Russia.

Being short on facts is unacceptable.

The present day style of Pravda is an insult to the original paper, founded almost exactly a century ago, by Trotsky.

 

[WmLambert]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4429

Russian Elite troops

Ukraine's distancing from Russia

Russia targeting Caspian Sea pipeline - yet elite troops missing targets

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080810/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_russia_georgia

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104259162&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

Georgia falls victim to pipeline politics

Premeditated Cyber attack on Georgia

For all that US commentators and diplomats are still chattering about Russia's "response" to Georgia's actions, the Kremlin spent months planning and preparing this operation. Any soldier above the grade of private can tell you that there's absolutely no way Moscow could've launched this huge ground, air and sea offensive in an instantaneous "response" to alleged Georgian actions.

The rapid availability and deployment of these two invasion forces by Russia makes it clear that the Russian government had planned, deployed and staged these operations well in advance, raising the natural question regarding whether Russia instigated the attacks/shelling of Georgian villages and positions by South Ossetian forces to provoke the response by Georgia, which Russian then used as a pretext for an already planned invasion.

http://www.wjactv.com/news/17165173/detail.html

Time will tell.

 

[meopemuk]

blah-blah-blah...
Time will tell.

This is what I would call "propaganda". Only one side of the story is presented and the level of noise is so high that any logic and reason is drowned in it. Why is it that your links do not mention the views of South Ossetians, who know better than anybody else what happened in the night of August 8th in Tshinvali and who is to blame?

Why don't you try www.russiatoday.com?[/URL] This is not as powerful propaganda machine as CNN and FOX, but you can see some interesting and authentic stuff there.

Saakhashvili and Rice may talk about the "territorial integrity" of Georgia as much as they want, but I don't think there is a single person in South Ossetia and Abkhazia who would agree to live under Georgian rule after what happened on August 8th.

 

[Astronuc]

. . . , but I don't think there is a single person in South Ossetia and Abkhazia who would agree to live under Georgian rule after what happened on August 8th.

But the Georgians living in the areas of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia do apparently prefer to live as part of Georgia. Apparently over the last decade or so, there has been a concerted effort by Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists (with tacit support from Russia) to attack and drive out ethnic Georgians, i.e. ethnic cleansing. If Abkhazians and Ossetians want to be part of Russia, why not just simply immigrate to Russia?

Nations/governments do consider territorial integrity important. Russia considers it's territory borders to be important, and will fight separatist movements - e.g. Chechnya.

 

[seycyrus]

This is what I would call "propaganda". Only one side of the story is presented and the level of noise is so high that any logic and reason is drowned in it. Why is it that your links do not mention the views of South Ossetians, who know better than anybody else what happened in the night of August 8th in Tshinvali and who is to blame?

You GOTTA be kidding me. Not only do you want his links to support his position, but you want them to support *yours* as well. Ridiculous!

Most of the facts that have been presented on this thread are derived from sources that are non-neutral.

 

[baywax]

I don't quite get the "ethnic" tag. Are Americans "ethnic" Americans?

 

[meopemuk]

But the Georgians living in the areas of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia do apparently prefer to live as part of Georgia. Apparently over the last decade or so, there has been a concerted effort by Abkhazian and Ossetian separatists (with tacit support from Russia) to attack and drive out ethnic Georgians, i.e. ethnic cleansing.

As far as I know Georgians did the same, i.e., expelled Ossetians and Abkhazians from the territory of Georgia proper.

If Abkhazians and Ossetians want to be part of Russia, why not just simply immigrate to Russia?

Are you serious? These people lived on their land for centuries. Are they supposed to drop everything and move to a refugee camp now in order to satisfy some abstract Washington's definition of "territorial integrity"?

Nations/governments do consider territorial integrity important. Russia considers it's territory borders to be important, and will fight separatist movements - e.g. Chechnya.

There are also others who do not consider territorial integrity that important. Remember Kosovo? Russia stood alone against the West and against the independence of Kosovo.

Until August 8th Russia officially supported the territorial integrity of Georgia and signed UN Security Council resolutions, which established that. Until August 8th there was a (slim) chance of peaceful re-incorporation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia. After August 8th this chance disappeared. This is just a reality. Nothing personal. I think there is a higher chance than California will re-integrate with Mexico that South Ossetia going back to Georgia.

 

[Astronuc]

I don't quite get the "ethnic" tag. Are Americans "ethnic" Americans?

America is a relatively young nation, as opposed to Georgia, which has a history going back more than 2 millenia. The Abkhazians and Ossetians do not see themselves as Georgian, and they represent different ethnic background.

In the Caucuses, there have been different groups move through the area, Scythians, Sarmatians (Persian/Iranian), Turkic groups (like the Avars), Huns, Armenians, Romans and Greeks. All controlled that region (or parts) at some point, and various different ethnic groups settled within particular areas.


There are ethnic (or racial) groups in the US, but so far none has decided to breakaway. Some people do identify their heritage, e.g. Mexican-American, African-American, . . . .

In NY, there is occasional conflict between local Indian tribes and the state government over matters like taxation and sovereignty.

 

[baywax]

Canada sent troops and tanks into Quebec (one of the Canadian provinces) when they were threatening to separate. They were pulling terrorist tactics like kidnapping and killing officials. The then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was quite decisive about stopping any ideas of Quebec sovereignty as quickly as possible. And, of course, the idea is still pretty strong today and Trudeau has passed. At the moment we have a patzy for a Prime Minister.

 

[Astronuc]

As far as I know Georgians did the same, i.e., expelled Ossetians and Abkhazians from the territory of Georgia proper.

I'm sure that has happened - but when, and recently? Then how to resolve that. All sides have done their share of ethnic cleansing.

Are you serious? These people lived on their land for centuries. Are they supposed to drop everything and move to a refugee camp now in order to satisfy some abstract Washington's definition of "territorial integrity"?

Yes, I am serious. What about the ethnic Georgians who live in Abkhazia and Ossetia, who have done so for centuries, and who want to remain as Georgia citizens in Georgia? During the Soviet era, Georgia was pretty much are recognized Republic. (unfortunately Wikipedia is the only source available quickly - not that I necessarily trust it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Georgia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:DRGMap.png

There are also others who do not consider territorial integrity that important. Remember Kosovo? Russia stood alone against the West and against the independence of Kosovo.

AFAIK, the Kosovars voted democratically to become independent. When the Serbia military attack the Kosovars, Serbia forfeited any claim to Kosovo.

Until August 8th Russia officially supported the territorial integrity of Georgia and signed UN Security Council resolutions, which established that. Until August 8th there was a (slim) chance of peaceful re-incorporation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia. After August 8th this chance disappeared. This is just a reality. Nothing personal. I think there is a higher chance that California will re-integrate with Mexico that South Ossetia going back to Georgia.

Well, apparently there are some Mexican-Americans who feel that parts of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California should return to Mexico. I recently came across an article that indicated that European-Americans will become a minority by ~2040, and Hispanics will be the majority. So perhaps it's a matter of time.

 

[meopemuk]

I don't quite get the "ethnic" tag. Are Americans "ethnic" Americans?

Those parts of the world are quite different from the US, where immigrants are quickly assimilated and families often lose their native language in the 2nd or 3rd generation.

When people say they are Georgians or Russians they usually mean their ethnicity (primarily, their mother's tongue) rather than their passports. I've been in Georgia twice (and once in Abkhazia) in 1980's. This is a colorful place. I was in a mountain village occupied by ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek language and probably lived there since "Illiada" times. There were Georgian, Ossetian, and Azerbaijani villages nearby. Different ethnic groups lived side-by side for centuries, mostly peacefully. It is sad to see how this delicate fabric of relationships gets torn apart now.