Group velocity and Dispersion Relation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of group velocity and its relationship to dispersion relations, signal velocity, and the physical implications of these definitions. Participants explore various aspects of group velocity, including its mathematical definition, physical meaning, and conditions under which it is valid, as well as its connection to wave packets and energy transfer.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why group velocity is defined as vgroup = ∂ω/∂k and seek a rigorous derivation of this definition.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of stationary phase in integrals related to wave packets, with some participants expressing confusion over its meaning.
  • One participant explains that group velocity represents the velocity of a wave packet, distinguishing it from phase velocity, and describes how to track the peak of the envelope function.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of group velocity, noting that it only retains meaning if the wave packet maintains its shape during propagation.
  • Some participants assert that group velocity is equivalent to signal velocity, indicating that both represent the speed at which information and energy travel.
  • There is mention of cases where group velocity may yield unphysical values due to high dispersion, leading to questions about its physical significance.
  • Participants discuss the definitions of ω and k, noting that they are linked through dispersion relations, which depend on the material's response to the wave.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the definitions and implications of group velocity and signal velocity. Some points remain contested, particularly concerning the physical meaning of group velocity in highly dispersive media and the relationship between group velocity and signal velocity.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential for unphysical values in certain dispersive scenarios, and the need for clearer definitions of terms like signal velocity and the conditions under which group velocity is meaningful.

Xian
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Hi there


So I was looking into group velocity and related matters and found myself quite confused. So now I have a few questions which I feel I need to understand (primarily the first one). Any help with these would be awesome and I would be very grateful...

1) Why is the group velocity defined as vgroup = \frac{\partial \omega}{\partial k}?
What does this physically mean?
2) For what kinds of functions is this meaningful/valid and why?
3) How is group velocity related to signal velocity and the transfer of energy
4) For that matter what is the explicit definition of signal velocity
5) In general, for what functions can we define ω and k?

I'm looking for some pretty rigorous derivation for the first one, as I've seen some heuristics but am not convinced by their generalization. Anyways, thanks in advance!
 
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genneth said:

Awesome, looks very promising but unfortunately in its current presentation might be a little to dense for me.

I do notice that it mentions the group velocity definition very briefly as a sufficient condition for the phase being "stationary". I'm having a hard time understanding the implications of stationary phases in the integral the mention. It seems to have something to do with the Fourier components of F(w) but I'm not sure. Would you be able to enlighten me on the implications of "stationary" phase for this kind of integral?
 
Usually you start from a spacially very broad wavepacket and cosider its Fourier transform, which is very peaked at some k value k' and frequency omega(k). Then you consider how the maximum (or mean) does move in an infinitesimal instant of time. As the Fourier transform is very peaked, you may expand omega(k) into a series around k=k'.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Xian said:
1) Why is the group velocity defined as vgroup = \frac{\partial \omega}{\partial k}?
What does this physically mean?

It means the velocity of a wavepacket. A wavepacket can be represented spatially as a sine wave times an envelope function, such as a Gaussian. The velocity of the sine wave is the phase velocity and the velocity of the envelope is the group velocity. You can quantify this by tracking the peak of the envelope and measuring the distance it travels in a given amount of time.

Xian said:
2) For what kinds of functions is this meaningful/valid and why?

The group velocity only has meaning if the wave packet retains its general shape as it travels through the medium, so that there is still a dominant central peak of the envelope that you can track. Materials with high enough dispersion will jumble up the wave packet enough that there is no peak to track. If you try to calculate the group velocity of such a case, you will get unphysical values, such as imaginary-valued or infinite.

Xian said:
3) How is group velocity related to signal velocity and the transfer of energy

Signal velocity is the same as group velocity. It is the the velocity at which information (and energy) is traveling. In the special case where the front of a wave packet is amplified and the back is destroyed, the group velocity may seem to exceed the speed of light while the signal velocity has not. However, I would argue this is such a case where the group velocity looses physical meaning.

Xian said:
4) For that matter what is the explicit definition of signal velocity

It is the same as group velocity.

Xian said:
5) In general, for what functions can we define ω and k?

ω and k are traditionally defined to mean the angular frequency and angular wavenumber of the wave traveling through the medium. The response of the material to the traversing wave links ω and k in what we call a dispersion relation.
 

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