Group velocity of a wavepacket vs its mean phase velocity

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the comparison of mean group velocity and mean phase velocity of a wavepacket, as described by a general wavefunction. Participants explore the conditions under which these two formulations of mean velocity are equivalent and their implications for information transfer and energy flow.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the mean group velocity is the time derivative of the mean position, while the mean phase velocity is the averaged velocity of all plane wave components.
  • One participant states that the two formulations are equivalent in the absence of dispersion, where the derivative of frequency with respect to wave number is constant.
  • Another participant suggests that there may be special cases where phase velocity matches group velocity even with some dispersion, though this is uncertain.
  • Energy flow is argued to be related to group velocity, while the speed of information transfer is described as more complex, involving front velocity.
  • A participant questions the significance of mean phase velocity and its implications for the movement of peaks in a wavepacket.
  • It is noted that in cases of significant dispersion, averaging phase velocities becomes problematic, necessitating consideration of different frequencies separately.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the equivalence of mean group and phase velocities, particularly in the context of dispersion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific implications of mean phase velocity.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the presence or absence of dispersion and the complexity of defining speed of information transfer versus energy flow.

jfizzix
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Insights Author
Messages
757
Reaction score
356
The mean velocity of a wavepacket given by the general wavefunction:
\Psi(x,t)=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\pi}}\int dk A(k)e^{i(k x - \omega(k) t)},
can be expressed in two ways.

First, we have that it's the time derivative of the mean position (i.e., its mean group velocity):
\frac{d \langle x\rangle}{dt}=\int dk |A(k)|^{2} \frac{d\omega(k)}{d k}\approx \frac{d\omega}{dk} at center frequency.

Second, we have that it is the averaged velocity of all the plane wave components of the wavepacket (i.e., the mean phase velocity):
\langle \frac{\omega(k)}{k}\rangle=\int dk |A(k)|^{2} \frac{\omega(k)}{k}.

My questions are these:
When are these two formulations of "the mean velocity" equivalent?
Which (if either) best corresponds to the speed of information transfer, or energy flow?
Thanks for reading.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
jfizzix said:
When are these two formulations of "the mean velocity" equivalent?
They have the same speed if you do not have dispersion, which means ##\frac{d\omega}{dk}## is constant (then ##\frac{d\omega}{dk}=\frac{\omega}{k}##).
There might be some exotic special case where the phase velocity matches group velocity even with some dispersion in some frequency range, not sure.
jfizzix said:
Which (if either) best corresponds to the speed of information transfer, or energy flow?
Energy flow is related to group velocity. The speed of information transfer is more complicated (front velocity), but for usual data transmission group velocity matters.
 
So what does the mean phase velocity tell us, exactly? If each plane-wave component is moving at a given phase velocity, and we average those over all plane wave components, what does that number tell us?
 
It tells you how fast the phase and therefore peaks are advancing, which is important for refraction, for example. If you get significant dispersion within your wave packet, then you cannot average over the phase velocities any more and you have to consider the different frequencies separately.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K