Guaranteeing turbulent flow in a gas pipe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the requirements for achieving turbulent flow during the purging of gas pipes in the gas industry. It examines the relationship between pipe diameter, purge velocity, and shear stress, as well as the implications of these factors for ensuring safety during maintenance work.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why a faster purge velocity is required for larger pipes despite the Reynolds number being proportional to pipe diameter, suggesting that larger diameters might allow for slower velocities to achieve turbulence.
  • Another participant proposes that constant shear stress at the wall may be necessary, leading to a discussion about the relationship between shear stress, friction factor, and flow velocity.
  • A participant summarizes their understanding of the friction factor and its relationship to shear stress and flow velocity, suggesting that to maintain constant shear stress with increasing pipe diameter, flow velocity must also increase.
  • There is a mention of the purging standard's friction factor equation for natural gas, which indicates that the friction factor decreases with increasing pipe diameter.
  • One participant attempts to fit a curve to the relationship between purge velocity and pipe diameter, questioning its relevance to the concept of constant shear stress.
  • Another participant provides a detailed table of minimum purge flow rates for various pipe diameters, contributing additional data to the discussion.
  • A participant derives a formula for flow rate based on the provided data and encourages others to plot the data for further analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between purge velocity, pipe diameter, and shear stress, with no consensus reached on the necessity of constant shear stress or the implications of the friction factor. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the relationships involved and the need for simplifications in their reasoning. There are indications of unresolved mathematical steps and assumptions regarding the behavior of flow in gas pipes.

Jehannum
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In the gas industry engineers often have to purge gas pipes. For example, if repair work must be done on a gas line the fuel gas in the system must be removed before work can be done safely.

The Institute of Gas Engineers and Managers (IGEM) publication IGE/UP/1 stresses the need to achieve a minimum purge velocity when purging, to ensure that purge flow is turbulent. Laminar flow could leave undisturbed layers of fuel gas (of a different density to the purge gas) in pipes.

To help engineers achieve this IGEM provide a table that gives minimum purge velocity for a given pipe diameter. Some sample figures are below:

50 mm pipe, 0.6 m / s
...
200 mm pipe, 0.7 m / s
...
400 mm pipe, 1.0 m / s

My question is this: if Reynolds number for gas in a circular pipe is proportional to pipe diameter, why is a faster purge velocity needed for larger pipes? Wouldn't it be the opposite, i.e. a larger pipe diameter would mean you could have a slower purge velocity and still get the Reynolds number you need (say > 4000) to ensure turbulent flow?
 
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Maybe you need to have a certain shear stress at the wall. For turbulent flow, if f = 0.079/Re^0.25, how would the velocity vary with diameter so that the shear stress is constant?
 
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After going around in circles in Wikipedia and other sources I think I'm beginning to get a glimmer of sense. I have found out:

(Fanning) friction factor is the ratio between shear stress and flow kinetic energy density​

So I surmise that:

Friction factor is proportional to shear stress divided by the square of flow velocity​

Rearranging this tells me that:

Shear stress is proportional to friction factor x the square of flow velocity​

In the purging standard (see original post), it says that friction factor can be taken as 0.0044 [1 + 43.5 d^-1] for natural gas, where d = pipe diameter (mm). In terms of proportionality:

Friction factor decreases with increasing pipe diameter​

So, to keep shear stress constant:

If pipe diameter increases, flow velocity must increase, which is what we see in the tables in the purging standard.​

Would this chain of reasoning be correct? To understand all this I have had to make drastic simplifications: i.e. reducing equations to "if one thing goes up, this other thing goes down", but this is sufficient for my conceptual understanding - and it answers my original question.

Can you tell me why it could be necessary that shear stress be constant?
 
Jehannum said:
After going around in circles in Wikipedia and other sources I think I'm beginning to get a glimmer of sense. I have found out:

(Fanning) friction factor is the ratio between shear stress and flow kinetic energy density​

So I surmise that:

Friction factor is proportional to shear stress divided by the square of flow velocity​

Rearranging this tells me that:

Shear stress is proportional to friction factor x the square of flow velocity​

In the purging standard (see original post), it says that friction factor can be taken as 0.0044 [1 + 43.5 d^-1] for natural gas, where d = pipe diameter (mm). In terms of proportionality:

Friction factor decreases with increasing pipe diameter​

So, to keep shear stress constant:

If pipe diameter increases, flow velocity must increase, which is what we see in the tables in the purging standard.​

Would this chain of reasoning be correct? To understand all this I have had to make drastic simplifications: i.e. reducing equations to "if one thing goes up, this other thing goes down", but this is sufficient for my conceptual understanding - and it answers my original question.

Can you tell me why it could be necessary that shear stress be constant?
If there is some kind of deposit or buildup at the wall, it takes a higher shear stress to sweep it away.
 
I tried to do a curve fit to the relationship you gave. It seemed to be fit well by ##V=0.544e^{0.00148 D}##. This doesn't seem to relate to constant shear stress at the wall.
 
As well as minimum purge velocity they also give minimum purge flow rate (Qp). This figure is actually given to more significant figures. Here is the full range they give in the table:

[diameter (mm), Qp (m3 / h)]
[20, 0.7]
[25, 1.0]
[32, 1,7]
[40, 2.5]
[50, 4.5]
[80, 11]
[100, 20]
[125, 30]
[150, 38]
[200, 79]
[250, 141]
[300, 216]
[400, 473]
[450, 575]
[600, 1230]
[750, 2390]
[900, 3440]
[1200, 6960]
 
From this data, I get ##Q=0.0006492D^{2.2533}##. Plot the data, and see what you get.
 

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