Is shear stress at the pipe wall the same for turbulent and laminar flows?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the shear stress at the walls of a pipe during laminar and turbulent flows. Participants explore the differences in shear stress characteristics between these two flow regimes, including the implications of velocity gradients and the role of viscosity.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that shear stress at the wall is equal to the product of shear rate and viscosity for both laminar and turbulent flows.
  • Others argue that in turbulent flow, the velocity gradient near the wall is significantly higher than in laminar flow, suggesting that shear stress at the wall differs between the two regimes.
  • A participant questions whether shear stress at the wall is the same in laminar and turbulent flows, proposing a scenario with different flow velocities in two pipes.
  • Another participant emphasizes that turbulent flow consists of chaotic eddies, which complicates the idea of summing laminar and turbulent shear stresses.
  • Some participants discuss the concept of 'eddy viscosity' as a model for turbulence, noting that it redistributes momentum similarly to viscosity but is not a physical quantity.
  • There is a suggestion to clarify that closer to the pipe walls, viscosity dominates over eddy viscosity, although the term 'closer' may not accurately describe the phenomenon.
  • One participant highlights that the shear rate in turbulent flow is always higher, and computing this shear rate requires different approaches compared to laminar flow.
  • A clarification is made regarding the definition of the friction factor and its relationship to shear stress at the wall.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical expression for shear rate, indicating that it is not simply equal to the velocity gradient in all cases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on whether shear stress at the wall is the same for turbulent and laminar flows, with multiple competing views presented. While some agree on the basic relationship between shear stress, shear rate, and viscosity, the implications of turbulence and the modeling of shear stress remain contested.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about flow conditions, the definitions of shear stress and shear rate, and the complexities introduced by turbulence. There are unresolved mathematical steps and differing interpretations of how shear stress is modeled in turbulent flow.

  • #31
lost captain said:
do i see this not moving fluid with my naked eye? Yes

Compare the position of the right tip of the dyed fluid between 0.09 and 0.18. It very slowly moves left. You need longer experiments than just a few seconds.

lost captain said:
If it has no thickness to be considered a layer how come i observe this so easily?
"No thickness" applies to the mathematical continuum model. In reality you have particles and surface irregularities of finite size.
 
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  • #32
A.T. said:
Compare the position of the right tip of the dyed fluid between 0.09 and 0.18. It very slowly moves left. You need longer experiments than just a few seconds.


"No thickness" applies to the mathematical continuum model. In reality you have particles and surface irregularities of finite size.
Okay thank you very much. Could you also answer me this: is the friction at the walls of the pipe applied at the moving layer on top of the no slip condition?
 

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