Homeopathy and the second law of thermodynamics

[jtschild]

Homeopaths assert that dilution of a medicinal substance in a water -alcohol mixture, followed by forceful shaking (called "succussion") would create a memory of that substance in the solution. Critics argue that shaking of liquid water is unable to create macroscopic order, as this would contradict the second law of thermodynamics. Due to gaps in my physics knowledge, I do not really understand the following statement in this regard :
"To create order, at a macroscopic level in liquid water with all its thermal motion, substantial amounts of energy would be required. This energy cannot be derived from the chaotic thermal motion itself. This would be contrary to the second law of thermodynamics."
The second law of thermodynamics implies, I think, that the introduction of order in a solution would cause a decrease of its entropy and a concomitant increase of the entropy in the environment. Why would forceful shaking be unable to do this ? In particular, why can the required energy not be derived from the "chaotic thermal motion" of the water molecules ?
Thanks for any clarification.

 

[QuantumPion]

You are basically asking why shaking a pile of broken glass does not turn into a cup. Chaotic motion cannot produce a specific ordered state by chance.

 

[dauto]

If the energy goes from the chaotic motion to some ordered form of energy the entropy is decreasing. But you can forget about all that since the water memory itself doesn't exist to begin with. Homeopathy is just a bunch of crackpot nonsense. It's not worth your time trying to "understand" it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

dauto is right. This is crackpot nonsense, and we don't discuss that here.

 

[sardar]

I can provide a response to this content by explaining the scientific principles behind homeopathy and the second law of thermodynamics.

Firstly, homeopathy is a form of alternative medicine that relies on the principle of "like cures like", where a substance that causes symptoms in a healthy person is used to treat similar symptoms in a sick person. Homeopaths believe that diluting a substance in water and then succussing (shaking) it will create a memory of the substance in the water, making it more potent.

However, this belief contradicts the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the total entropy (disorder) of a closed system will always increase over time. In other words, the natural tendency of a system is to move towards a state of maximum disorder and randomness.

In the case of homeopathy, the dilution and succussion process is believed to create order in the water by retaining the memory of the original substance. This goes against the second law of thermodynamics, as creating order in a system would require a decrease in entropy, which is not possible without an input of energy.

To create order in a system, a significant amount of energy is required, and this energy cannot be derived from the chaotic thermal motion of the water molecules. This is because the energy from thermal motion is random and cannot be harnessed to create specific order in a system. Therefore, the idea that succussion can create a memory of a substance in water is not scientifically plausible.

Furthermore, the introduction of order in a solution would indeed cause a decrease in its entropy, but this would also result in an increase in entropy in the surrounding environment. This is in line with the second law of thermodynamics, which states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase.

In summary, the concept of homeopathy and the second law of thermodynamics are incompatible. The process of succussion in homeopathy cannot create a memory of a substance in water, as it goes against the fundamental principles of thermodynamics. As scientists, it is essential to critically evaluate claims and theories using scientific principles and evidence.