How can a volume integral yield a vector field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical formulation of the electric field due to continuous charge distributions, specifically the interpretation of a volume integral that yields a vector field. Participants explore the implications of the radial unit vector in the context of the integral and its representation as a vector-valued function.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about how the radial unit vector contributes to the vector nature of the electric field in the integral formulation.
  • Others argue that the radial unit vector is essential for understanding the vector nature of the total electric field.
  • One participant questions the mathematical validity of the integral, comparing it to a simplified form that appears nonsensical to them.
  • Another participant clarifies that the integral of a vector is defined as the vector formed by integrating each of its components.
  • A later reply suggests that the properties of vector integrals follow from those of scalar integrals, indicating a relationship between the two.
  • Some participants draw parallels between the continuous charge distribution scenario and the case of discrete point charges, emphasizing the additive nature of vector contributions from each charge.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express uncertainty about the mathematical interpretation of the integral, with some agreeing on the role of the radial unit vector while others remain skeptical about its formulation. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the clarity of the mathematical representation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the absence of examples in the textbook that directly utilize the discussed formula, which may contribute to the confusion. There is also mention of symmetry arguments used in examples, which may simplify the understanding of the electric field without explicitly using the integral.

rcmps772
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I'm using the textbook Electricity and Magnetism by Purcell. In the section about continuous charge distributions I found the following formula

\mathbf{E}(x,y,z)= \frac{1}{4\pi\epsilon_0 } \int \frac{\rho(x',y',z')\boldsymbol{\hat r} dx'dy'dz'}{r^{2}}.

It's stated that (x,y,z) is fixed while we let the variables x', y' and z' range over the domain of integration. What puzzles me is that radial unit vector, which is supposed to point from (x', y', z') to (x,y,z), making the integrand a vector valued function.
What am I missing?
 
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rcmps772 said:
What puzzles me is that radial unit vector, which is supposed to point from (x', y', z') to (x,y,z), making the integrand a vector valued function.
Yes, it is the radial unit vector which gives the vector nature to the total E field.
 
blue_leaf77 said:
Yes, it is the radial unit vector which gives the vector nature to the total E field.

I understand the idea, but as a mathematical object it looks like nonsense to me. There are no examples in the textbook that use this formula directly. They use symmetry arguments such that only the magnitude of one direction is calculated.
 
rcmps772 said:
but as a mathematical object it looks like nonsense to me.
In which way does it look nonsense to you?
rcmps772 said:
They use symmetry arguments such that only the magnitude of one direction is calculated.
Well, the symmetry argument derives automatically from the vector summation, doesn't it? Without the presence of the radial unit vector in the integrand, there can't be such thing as cancellation of one or more of the field's components. The examples in your textbook do use that formula, but most of the times, examples are a group of problems which can be solved and understood easily. That's why a physical situation which is facilitated by the symmetry argument is commonly found in examples.
 
blue_leaf77 said:
In which way does it look nonsense to you?
In the same way that this looks
\int (r_x,r_y,r_z) dx'dy'dz'
This is essentially the same as what's up there, just removed clutter. I don't understand how this works.
 
rcmps772 said:
In the same way that this looks
\int (r_x,r_y,r_z) dx'dy'dz'
This is essentially the same as what's up there, just removed clutter. I don't understand how this works.
The integral of a vector is, by definition, the vector formed by integrating each of the components.
 
PeroK said:
The integral of a vector is, by definition, the vector formed by integrating each of the components.

Well, makes sense. I'm guessing that it's defined just as easily through Riemann sums.Thank you for the help.
 
rcmps772 said:
Well, makes sense. I'm guessing that it's defined just as easily through Riemann sums.Thank you for the help.
Yes, exactly. Although, once you have proved the properties of a scalar integral, the properties of a vector integral follow.
 
rcmps772 said:
I understand the idea, but as a mathematical object it looks like nonsense to me
If it weren't a continuous charge distribution, but instead a finite number of discrete point charges, you'd calculate the electric field at a given point by summing the contributions from each point charge. Each contribution ##\vec{E_i}## would be a vector, so you'd write it as the product of its magnitude (##Q_i/r_i^2## where ##Q_i## and ##r_i## are the charge of and distance to the ##i##'th point charge) and a unit vector in the direction of that charge. These vectors point in different directions, but that doesn't stop you from adding them.

The integral you're looking at is the same thing except extended to an infinite number of infinitesimally small charges represented by ##\rho##. The integrand is the vector-valued contribution to the total field produced by the infinitesimal charge in the infinitesimal volume dx'dy'dz at a distance ##r## in the direction ##\hat{r}##; the integral is the sum of all of these.
 

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