News How can we make sure this Clean Up doesn't turn into a bigger mess?

[Mattius_]

Bush To Africa!

well he has now gotten my vote for re-election... bush is headed to africa; on the agenda is a aggressive 15 billion dollar plan to control aids as well as diplomatic talks to several countries in hopes of creating peace. Just to tell you, 15 billion dollars is ALOT of money in africa, so this will go a long way.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
well he has now gotten my vote for re-election... bush is headed to africa; on the agenda is a aggressive 15 billion dollar plan to control aids as well as diplomatic talks to several countries in hopes of creating peace. Just to tell you, 15 billion dollars is ALOT of money in africa, so this will go a long way.

Don't hold your breath...

 

[Mattius_]

care to elaborate?

 

[Mattius_]

btw nice sig...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
care to elaborate?

$15 billion for aid? Will he actually allow condom use to be part of the plan? Over how many years? And how much goes to 'faith-based' missionaries?

 

[Mattius_]

well i personally don't think that condoms are a viable solution zero... condoms interfere with culture, and culture wins... that has been widely debated and the end result is, unless you want to go put the condom on the guy, then its not going on...

as for your faith-based missionary remark, i am not educated on this subject but i will say that i don't think bush or any other american wants to impose western faith upon african people... the consequence was resulted on 9/11... the pressure would be on him too strong if he were to act with christianity, so i think your hypothesis is purely speculative...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
well i personally don't think that condoms are a viable solution zero... condoms interfere with culture, and culture wins... that has been widely debated and the end result is, unless you want to go put the condom on the guy, then its not going on...

as for your faith-based missionary remark, i am not educated on this subject but i will say that i don't think bush or any other american wants to impose western faith upon african people... the consequence was resulted on 9/11... the pressure would be on him too strong if he were to act with christianity, so i think your hypothesis is purely speculative...

Why? He has already been trying to push religion on people at home...he's never seen tax money that he can't give to a church.

 

[Zero]

Wait...explain how getting people to stop having sex is easier than getting them to start wearing condoms?

 

[Zero]

http://www.africana.com/articles/daily/bw20030225aids.asp

Skeptical...we'll see how it goes.

 

[Mattius_]

to your first post, specify, i haven't heard of any church donations...

your second post, when the average life expectancy is below 40, and 2/3 of the people that were born on your birthday have already died by the age of 18, i think you would want to learn what causes this death...

when some acultural person comes up and tells them to put a piece of latex, something they have never even seen before, on their most sacred skin, it seems a little absurd, know what i am saying? and to top it off, it is banned by many of their traditions...

if you want a comparison, they tried condoms in india... hmmm... i think they are going to be the most populous country in the world within 10 years, that didnt work...

they tried family planning in catholic latin america, significant progress shown...

am i giving you any sort of new perspectives yet zero?

 

[Zero]

Nope...we aren't talking about pregnancy, first of all, secondly are you honestly thinking we should make Africa a Catholic continent?

 

[Zero]

And let's not forget the Bush strategy of promising money now, not putting it in the budget later.

 

[Mattius_]

um that is commonplace in all politics... what's important is that he is showing his awareness... and thus, it makes news, now americans are coming to terms with problems in africa...

sooner or later we will have a reasonable grip on what's going on in africa, and the masses will ask for african relief, that is when you will see it in the budget...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
um that is commonplace in all politics... what's important is that he is showing his awareness... and thus, it makes news, now americans are coming to terms with problems in africa...

sooner or later we will have a reasonable grip on what's going on in africa, and the masses will ask for african relief, that is when you will see it in the budget...

So it is ok for him to maybe lie about it, if it gets awareness(and votes for him)?

 

[Mattius_]

there is no right or wrong zero, what counts is that what he is doing now gives a much better chance of saved lives in the future...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
there is no right or wrong zero, what counts is that what he is doing now gives a much better chance of saved lives in the future...

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't...but it got your vote, huh? Wanna see how much of that money actually gets there after the election? Three hints, first hint is that it is less than what you have in the bank...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
i already said that it was true that africa would probably get little money, BUT... if political games are the cost of progress, then by all means let them lie till the cows come home...

We have a different idea of progress...I understand your point, I just don't agree.

 

[Mattius_]

zero your morals too often get into the way of rationality and reasonability... think practical and things get done...

the end justifies the means...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
zero your morals too often get into the way of rationality and reasonability... think practical and things get done...

the end justifies the means...

I think we are done here...this is about to turn into philosophy!

 

[Mattius_]

heh god forbid...

 

[Dissident Dan]

I, for one, am glad that bush is getting more involved with Africa. I hope to see him use some muscle in bringing some peace in Zimbabwe, Liberia, etc.

 

[FZ+]

While it's good news that Bush is involved, it's worth noting that the US spends the smaller percentage of it's GDP on foreign aid that most of the world.
So, I'll say... Great, but more please! As for the vote, it depends on what the Republicans v0.9 (aka Democrats) promise, and how much is actually delivered.

 

[halfdyke]

mattius, i for one am sick of bush trying to save the world in the name of democracy and freedom and all that crap. and i agree with zero. he'll never suggest that using condoms just might help stop the spread of aids, not to africa, and sadly, not even to his own country. i believe that bush is a very evil man, and i will never re-elect him or for that matter, any member of his family that may in the future decide to run for president. evil and freedom do not go hand in hand.

 

[Mattius_]

*edit*

 

[Zero]

*edit*

 

[Mattius_]

what happened to my last post? anyways, care to elaborate on that generalization halfdyke?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Mattius_
what happened to my last post? anyways, care to elaborate on that generalization halfdyke?

I was giving you a chance to rephrase your comment...which you did nicely.

 

[Mattius_]

heh i figured...

ever watch c-span house of commons? hehe that gets intense...

 

[russ_watters]

*edit*

 

[quantumcarl]

I'm glad there is someone other than the right-wing pharmaceutical companies taking an interest in Africa, a free country. Or does the Prez have stock in Ely Lily?

Who the hell has been whipping up the sentiments between tribes on the oldest continent anyway?

Its like what went on in Iraq... sure there were interests with the oil there and everything... but... the same interest brought with it the removal of an openly brutal dictatorship. So... whatever interests are focusing on the African Continent are also focusing the good intentions of pioneers like U2's Bono and others who want to see an end to the disease and misrepresentation going on there...

Here's to an totally independant Africa! Viva la Liberty.

 

[eNtRopY]

*edit*

 

[russ_watters]

*edit*

 

[Mattius_]

Oddly enough, this thread only reinforces my old theory... there are no smart people in Nebraska.

that wasnt nice...

 

[eNtRopY]

It's actually sad that Bush has decided to start bribing African nations. Now that every nation is afraid to collaborate with the US for fear of breaking international laws, he has to try to gain support from third world countries.

In a recent interview, the prime minister of Poland openly admitted that cooperation with the US in the aftermath of the war could mean lower oil prices (and therefore improvement in economy) for his own country.

When you think about it, $15 billion isn't that much to pay for gaining support from many third world UN representatives.

eNtRopY

 

[Mattius_]

so what if the United States can't get any support in europe? their reasons for not supporting us are just as scandalous as our reasons for attacking iraq...

 

[eNtRopY]

Originally posted by Mattius_
so what if the United States can't get any support in europe? their reasons for not supporting us are just as scandalous as our reasons for attacking iraq...

No, it's not scandalous that European nations do no want to take blood money from the US. It's scandalous that the US is looking to gain support from desperately poor countries by waving a ham sandwich in front of their pathetic faces.

eNtRopY

 

[Mattius_]

haha lesson 1 in politics entropy, morals are non-existent!

dont expect me to swallow that crap, they are as crooked as you or me. they won't take blood money, lol! every single country which sided against us, is now offering to help cleanup iraq, including france! that is FACT. Morality is innefficient, and thus non-existent, every 'moral' country has long died off...

sorry if this new frontier of politics is a little bitter to you, but the fact is that it is REAL.

 

[eNtRopY]

Oh, I am aware that most European countries are angered by the fact that the US has blacklisted them from the reconstruction. However, I am also aware of the fact that most European countries would rather not officially back the US and its policy simply because it is blatantly illegal.

Let's count the number of times the US has contradicted its own Universal Declaration of Human Rights (established in 1948). On second thought, that would take too long... nevermind.

eNtRopY

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by eNtRopY
Oh, I am aware that most European countries are angered by the fact that the US has blacklisted them from the reconstruction.

They want the money but not the responsibility. Tough.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by quantumcarl Here's to a totally independant Africa! Viva la Liberty!

 

[Mattius_]

an independent africa? we (as in westerners) made the mess, its our job to clean it up

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by Mattius_
an independent africa? we (as in westerners) made the mess, its our job to clean it up

Its a tough call. Do we integrate the different cultures of the world into our culture of wireless glass and steel boxes? Do we integrate the other cultures of the world into our glass and steel boxes... where we have goats and mud and cobras and straw rooves along with our Frappachino Carmella?

its a tough call. Do we regulate each pound of goat's milk cheese like we do in Euro land? Do we impose Burgers pattie regulations that shape the food of a nation... Ostrich Burger/ Water buffalo patties... Kuala cheese melt to go?

The result of a "Western Cleanup Op" in Africa will undoubtedly make a worse mess. Unless, of course, people are senstitive to the ways of the African. And the Africans are involved at the highest level in this... "Clean Up".

Some results have been reverse discrimination where we see white immigrants being beaten and removed from their land... sometimes killed. It sounds a bit like Cincinati on a hot, riotious night, except in the reverse.