How Could Naked Singularities Exist Beyond the Event Horizon?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of naked singularities beyond the event horizon, exploring theoretical implications within general relativity (GR) and the complexities of gravitational phenomena. Participants delve into the nature of gravity, the challenges of defining mass in GR, and the implications of theoretical models and simulations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how naked singularities could exist given that singularities are associated with infinitely contracted mass and gravity, which is a fundamental property of mass.
  • One participant notes that relativistic gravity is significantly more complex than Newtonian gravity, emphasizing that gravitational fields cannot be simply defined outside a mass in GR.
  • It is mentioned that gravity couples to various factors beyond mass, including momentum and internal stresses, complicating the understanding of event horizons.
  • A participant highlights that event horizons are nonlocal constructs that cannot be measured precisely, as they require knowledge of the universe's entire future history.
  • Explicit solutions involving naked singularities exist, though they are not expected to occur in reality for various reasons, suggesting that while specific examples can be ruled out, the entire class cannot be dismissed.
  • Another participant references a 1990 model by Shapiro and associates that simulated gravitational mass collapse leading to naked singularities for a finite time, raising questions about the observational implications of such scenarios.
  • There is a suggestion that naked singularities are theoretical constructs resulting from complex mathematical models and simulations, indicating a need for a unified theory of gravity and quantum mechanics to fully understand these phenomena.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the theoretical nature of naked singularities, with some asserting their existence in specific models while others emphasize their theoretical status and the complexities involved. No consensus is reached regarding their physical reality or implications.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in defining gravitational phenomena within GR, the dependence on specific boundary conditions in simulations, and the unresolved nature of the relationship between GR and quantum theory.

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Ok, just HOW could they exist, when the event horizon is just gravity, singularity is supposed to be infinitely contracted mass, and mass is supposed to have gravity?

Any insights at all appreciated...
 
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Tail said:
Ok, just HOW could they exist, when the event horizon is just gravity, singularity is supposed to be infinitely contracted mass, and mass is supposed to have gravity?

Any insights at all appreciated...

Relativistic gravity is much much more complicated than Newtonian gravity. In Newton's version, you can go sufficiently far outside a lump of mass and find that the gravitational field is just given by the total mass of the lump and how far away you are from it. There is no analogous statement in GR (except in the weak field limit of course).

Gravity can't be described by a vector (or scalar potential) anymore, and it couples to more than just mass (also momentum and internal stresses/pressure). In many cases, its not even possible to define masses meaningfully in GR except in certain limits.

To add to the difficulty, an event horizon is an extremely nonlocal construct. It is not "real" in the sense that it could ever be measured exactly even in principle. Constructing an event horizon exactly requires knowing the entire future history of the universe. Otherwise, how would you know that nothing could ever escape?

The point of all that was to say that one's usual intuition doesn't apply here (and the math is very difficult). There actually are explicit solutions with naked singularities. They are not expected to exist in the real world for various reasons, but the point is that we can rule out specific examples, not the entire class.
 
Stingray said:
There actually are explicit solutions with naked singularities. They are not expected to exist in the real world for various reasons, but the point is that we can rule out specific examples, not the entire class.
Shapiro and associates constructed in 1990 the model (computer simmulation) of gravitational mass collapse starting from quasi-elipsoidal (?) mass distribution.At the 2 poles they got naked singularities existing for a finite time.GR cannot say anything about what could be seen in such situation despite only GR equations were used in creating the effect.
 
Still, they are supposed to be completely theoretical/ the result of complicated math?
 
Tail said:
Still, they are supposed to be completely theoretical/ the result of complicated math?
Better to say it was the result of computer simulation of Einstein equations for given boundary conditions(such problems very rarely have solutions explicible in closed math forms).
Yes,completely theoretical.Naked Singularities are clear sign that GR must meet theory of quanta in order to describe the phenomenon.
 

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