How do microwave plasmas work?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the generation and operation of microwave plasmas, particularly in the context of building a plasma generator using a 2.45 GHz plasmatron. Participants explore the mechanisms of plasma creation, the necessity of ignition sources, and the design considerations for a waveguide-based system.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire whether a tuned microwave waveguide can generate plasma solely through heating or if an ignition source is necessary to initiate ionization.
  • There is a question about whether the plasma remains self-sustaining once initiated or if continuous ignition is required.
  • One participant expresses a desire to build a basic plasma generator and seeks foundational knowledge on microwave plasmas, indicating a gap in understanding the basic mechanisms involved.
  • Another participant mentions the intention to use a simple tapered waveguide and acknowledges the potential for damaging microwave components during experimentation.
  • Concerns about safety when working with microwave magnetrons are raised, emphasizing the inherent dangers involved.
  • References to external resources, including academic papers and books on plasma reforming, are provided to assist in understanding and building plasma systems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the mechanisms of microwave plasma generation, and there is no consensus on the necessity of ignition sources or the specifics of waveguide design. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views and uncertainties present.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic and the potential dangers associated with microwave plasma experimentation. There are references to external resources that may provide further insights, but the discussion does not resolve the technical questions posed.

sw2244
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I'm new to PF, I have an engineering background, but am trying to understand how microwave plasmas are generated. I'm trying to work out if a tuned microwave waveguide can create a plasma in a specific point in the waveguide say over 30 seconds as the microwave energy heats up the waveguide thus causing the plasma to occur? Or does the plasma need a spark or ignition source to start the air ionizing and then the microwave keeps it going/enhances it?

Once the plasma is going, is the spark/ignition source required to keep operating to keep the plasma going, or is the plasma self sustaining?

Just trying to understand.
 
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sw2244 said:
I'm new to PF, I have an engineering background, but am trying to understand how microwave plasmas are generated. I'm trying to work out if a tuned microwave waveguide can create a plasma in a specific point in the waveguide say over 30 seconds as the microwave energy heats up the waveguide thus causing the plasma to occur? Or does the plasma need a spark or ignition source to start the air ionizing and then the microwave keeps it going/enhances it?

Once the plasma is going, is the spark/ignition source required to keep operating to keep the plasma going, or is the plasma self sustaining?

Just trying to understand.
Welcome to the PF.

Could you say more about what type of plasma application you have in mind? Here is a general Google search with various types of plasmas and generation techniques discussed:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...enerated&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

And this hit may be closer to what you are asking about?

https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/20/058/20058332.pdf

:smile:
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to the PF.

Could you say more about what type of plasma application you have in mind? Here is a general Google search with various types of plasmas and generation techniques discussed:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...enerated&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

And this hit may be closer to what you are asking about?

https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/20/058/20058332.pdf

:smile:
Hi

Thanks for your response. The main use would be ( eventually... ) alcohol reforming into hydrogen.

I have done a fair bit of reading, but what escaped me was the understanding of the basic mechanism behind how it all worked. Most of what I could find was university/reserach papers but they all seemed start from a high level and assumed the reader had a certain knowledge of microwave plasmas and how they worked, which I lack at this time, but want to build up.

I also wanted to build a basic un-tuned / "rough" plasma generator using a 2.45 Ghz plasmatron and my metal fabriaction skills to build a simple waveguide-based plasma system without need for circulators and isolators etc. It seems many people use software like HFSS to design their plasma systems, but what I'm looking for is basic "boot up" knowledge to get a plamsa-newbie like me going, and then to happily read more as I learn, but its a bit fo a case as I'm not really sure what I don't know...if you know what I mean...buty I guess you have to start somewhere... :-)

I will read the links youve sent ..thank you.

Maybe this fills in the gaps a bit?
 
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OK, I've had a chance to read up on plasmas some more, and now understand a lot better. I also have a much healthier respect for them in terms of safety.

I want to build a very rough plasma generator using a 2.45 Ghz plasmatron with a WR284 ( or WR430 ) simple tapered waveguide , hopefully without the need for circulators and isolators etc. I realize I may destroy a couple of cheap microwave oven magnetrons in the process. What I'm lacking now is the best method for calculating how I'd set up the waveguide in terms of how many wavelengths long it needs to be, where you would place the magnetron, where you would place the plasma opening, how big would the opening be etc.

Woud reading university course notes if I could find them help, or is design of this type of gear all done by off the shelf software now?

Any help appreciated.
 
Thread closed temporarily for Moderation...
 
You say you're aware of the safety problems. We can't judge that. However, this is a public forum, and we have no knowledge of the qualifications of anyone who might read this. Playing with microwave magnetrons is inherently dangerous. Therefore, we can't allow public discussion on PF.

Thread closed.

However, according to this reference https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/11993843 there is a book that tells everything about plasma reforming of alcohol, including how to build miniature plasma generators.
 
Last edited:
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