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- #27

davenn

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ahhh indeed :)

I went through this a couple of years ago when building a Wein bridge oscillator. Watching the output on a scope was very informative, the smallest of adjustments had it going from a nice sine wave to a square wave

Dave

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jim hardy

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Now you're getting there.

Mother Nature loves sines - they're the only function I know of whose shape does not change when you differentiate or integrate them. So pendulums and other harmonic systems produce them.

So I think of it this way - a sinewave appears for the same reason it does in a spring/mass system - the feedback system is linear(until amplitude grows to point it hits limits as pointed out above) and contains a restoring force that's proportional to rate-of-change of perturbing force.

a quick search took me to this page which shows the principle:(I'll not attempt the derivation right now)

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/Oscillations.pdf [Broken]

Any help ?

Mother Nature loves sines - they're the only function I know of whose shape does not change when you differentiate or integrate them. So pendulums and other harmonic systems produce them.

So I think of it this way - a sinewave appears for the same reason it does in a spring/mass system - the feedback system is linear(until amplitude grows to point it hits limits as pointed out above) and contains a restoring force that's proportional to rate-of-change of perturbing force.

a quick search took me to this page which shows the principle:(I'll not attempt the derivation right now)

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/Oscillations.pdf [Broken]

Any help ?

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- #30

sophiecentaur

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I seem to remember circuits that incorporated a thermistor, to achieve stability in a similar way. Something of the sort is essential is you want to make the oscillator frequency sweepable over a wide range for lab work.

- #31

sophiecentaur

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Asking what's so 'special' about a sine wave is a bit like asking what's so special about ∏ and e. They just creep out of the analysis. If one is not careful, one could start asking why the mathematical world seems so mimic the physical world so well. You'd soon be into the dimensions of the Great Pyramid and the lost gold of the Incas etc. etc. Move over, Dan Brown.Now you're getting there.

Mother Nature loves sines - they're the only function I know of whose shape does not change when you differentiate or integrate them. So pendulums and other harmonic systems produce them.

So I think of it this way - a sinewave appears for the same reason it does in a spring/mass system - the feedback system is linear(until amplitude grows to point it hits limits as pointed out above) and contains a restoring force that's proportional to rate-of-change of perturbing force.

a quick search took me to this page which shows the principle:(I'll not attempt the derivation right now)

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/Oscillations.pdf [Broken]

Any help ?

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- #32

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When i did this experiment in lab i got all sorts of waveforms until tuning the resistance finally gives a sinusoid.I seem to remember circuits that incorporated a thermistor, to achieve stability in a similar way. Something of the sort is essential is you want to make the oscillator frequency sweepable over a wide range for lab work.

I am not going to ask for any derivation for mechanical osscillations as i am very much familier with almost all types of mechanical oscillations and i know how to derive those also. The question i would ask is how does these mechanical oscillations relate with Wein-Bridge oscillator?(exept for the fact that the output is sine)

Mother Nature loves sines - they're the only function I know of whose shape does not change when you differentiate or integrate them. So pendulums and other harmonic systems produce them.

So I think of it this way - a sinewave appears for the same reason it does in a spring/mass system - the feedback system is linear(until amplitude grows to point it hits limits as pointed out above) and contains a restoring force that's proportional to rate-of-change of perturbing force.

a quick search took me to this page which shows the principle:(I'll not attempt the derivation right now)

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/Oscillations.pdf [Broken]

Any help ?

Last edited by a moderator:

- #33

NascentOxygen

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They are characterised by identical second-order differential equations. With each, when given a step or pulse input, their reaction is seen to be a sinusoidal response (superimposed on a decaying characteristic transient).how does these mechanical oscillations relate with Wein-Bridge oscillator?(exept for the fact that the output is sine)

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- #34

NascentOxygen

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The Wein Bridge has a reputation for being capable of delivering a high purity sinusoid. But my experiments with a pea bulb revealed, from memory, that its best sensitivity occurred below where it had begun to glow.

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sophiecentaur

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If you are familiar (at a sufficiently high level) with the maths of mechanical oscillators then you only need to replace Masses with Ls and Spring constants with Cs (in principle) etc. etc. to translate your knowledge into electrical oscillators. Oscillators and feedback systems of all types share exactly the same analyses. Could there ever be any surprise that the sinewave appears in both contexts?I am not going to ask for any derivation for mechanical osscillations as i am very much familier with almost all types of mechanical oscillations and i know how to derive those also. The question i would ask is how does these mechanical oscillations relate with Wein-Bridge oscillator?(exept for the fact that the output is sine)

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davenn

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yeah that is an alternative to a bulb.I seem to remember circuits that incorporated a thermistor, to achieve stability in a similar way. Something of the sort is essential is you want to make the oscillator frequency sweepable over a wide range for lab work.

I used a thermistor in my construction

Dave

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Averagesupernova

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I don't think a wein bridge oscillators bulbs are EVER supposed to glow.

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It seems to me that the operating point could be altered by adjusting the value of R4.But my experiments with a pea bulb revealed, from memory, that its best sensitivity occurred below where it had begun to glow.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/DeannaStewart.shtml

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Glad you put forward this point. I have studied Control Systems, where we replace mechanical systems by a circuit in Force-Voltage or Current-Voltage analogy. Now lets see this problem(the Wein-Bridge Oscillator) in a different way. The question is to draw the equivalent mechanical system for the wein-Bridge oscillator. Can this be done.If you are familiar (at a sufficiently high level) with the maths of mechanical oscillators then you only need to replace Masses with Ls and Spring constants with Cs (in principle) etc. etc. to translate your knowledge into electrical oscillators. Oscillators and feedback systems of all types share exactly the same analyses. Could there ever be any surprise that the sinewave appears in both contexts?

I haven't studied the equivalent mechanical thing for an op-amp. Moreover the op-amp is made up of transistors. Do transistors have a mechanical equivalent?

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Jim...you see where others see dark !!!! you are spot on....mother nature is simple

Mother Nature loves sines - they're the only function I know of whose shape does not change when you differentiate or integrate them. So pendulums and other harmonic systems produce them.

So I think of it this way - a sinewave appears for the same reason it does in a spring/mass system - the feedback system is linear(until amplitude grows to point it hits limits as pointed out above) and contains a restoring force that's proportional to rate-of-change of perturbing force.

a quick search took me to this page which shows the principle:(I'll not attempt the derivation right now)

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/Oscillations.pdf [Broken]

Any help ?

Last edited by a moderator:

- #41

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whether they glow or not is irrelevant....they are non-linearI don't think a wein bridge oscillators bulbs are EVER supposed to glow.

- #42

Averagesupernova

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But there are parts of that curve that are more linear than others.

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The word is non- linearBut there are parts of that curve that are more linear than others.

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There is no mechanical equivalent for an op amp directly. You need to think in terms of macromodels. So think of it as a device with infinite gain and you go a long, long way to understanding its behavior.Glad you put forward this point. I have studied Control Systems, where we replace mechanical systems by a circuit in Force-Voltage or Current-Voltage analogy. Now lets see this problem(the Wein-Bridge Oscillator) in a different way. The question is to draw the equivalent mechanical system for the wein-Bridge oscillator. Can this be done.

I haven't studied the equivalent mechanical thing for an op-amp. Moreover the op-amp is made up of transistors. Do transistors have a mechanical equivalent?

You know, these types of circuits are called analog circuits because they are electrical analogs to mechanical systems, since both mechanical and electrical systems can typically can be described by a set of differential equations.

So yes, the mechanical equiv or the Wein-Bridge oscillator can be drawn. The mathematics are identical.

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sophiecentaur

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suppose i want to draw the mechanical equivalent of an op-amp in Force-Voltage or Torque-Voltage analogy. How do i start?There is no mechanical equivalent for an op amp directly. You need to think in terms of macromodels. So think of it as a device with infinite gain and you go a long, long way to understanding its behavior.

You know, these types of circuits are called analog circuits because they are electrical analogs to mechanical systems, since both mechanical and electrical systems can typically can be described by a set of differential equations.

So yes, the mechanical equiv or the Wein-Bridge oscillator can be drawn. The mathematics are identical.

I want to draw the mechanical equivalent of Wein-bridge oscillator with springs, masses etc. Can this be done?

- #47

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The opamp is there to make the circuit more ideal, that is to approximate a mechanical system more closely. You wouldn't need the mechanical equivalent of an opamp in your drawing.suppose i want to draw the mechanical equivalent of an op-amp in Force-Voltage or Torque-Voltage analogy. How do i start?

I think this is what you're looking for:

http://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Analogs/ElectricalMechanicalAnalogs.html

Have fun! :)

- #48

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I tried this in a Force-current analogy. The mechanical system i got was a first order differential equation for velocity. For velocity stands for voltage, it should have been a second order equation in v for the solution to be sine. Where am i doing wrong?The opamp is there to make the circuit more ideal, that is to approximate a mechanical system more closely. You wouldn't need the mechanical equivalent of an opamp in your drawing.

I think this is what you're looking for:

http://lpsa.swarthmore.edu/Analogs/ElectricalMechanicalAnalogs.html

Have fun! :)

- #49

sophiecentaur

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