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A. Neumaier
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That of statistical mechanics, of course!stevendaryl said:At the intermediate scale of cats, I'm not sure what formalism is appropriate.
That of statistical mechanics, of course!stevendaryl said:At the intermediate scale of cats, I'm not sure what formalism is appropriate.
I found this paper recently and it seems to address this issue in an understandable way.stevendaryl said:I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by this. Are you just saying that because the system of interest is constantly interacting with the environment (the electromagnetic field), you can't use unitary evolution, because that only describes an isolated system?
Well, the non-unitary dynamics doesn't disprove quantum dynamics, because it's derived from it. That's not what I mean. I'm only against using the notion of "quantum jumps". Also in stochastic equations there are no jumps but fluctuating (generalized) forces. For me "quantum jumps" a la Bohr imply that there's no dynamical law covering these rapid transitions, but that's not what any dynamical equation, be it the fundamental unitary evolution of closed systems or effective deterministic or stochastic equations for open systems.A. Neumaier said:Unitary dynamics for small quantum systems is extremely well disproved - people in quantum optics always have to work with dissipative, nonunitary dynamics to describe their small systems quantitatively. Thus it is an experimental fact that small quantum systems cannot be described by unitary evolution.
The reason is that they are almost never isolated enough to justify the unitary approximation. The state reduction or collapse accounts for that.
On the other hand, if one makes a quantum system big enough that its interaction with the neglected environment can be ignored (which is often the case in macroscopic situations) or can be described by classical external interaction terms then unitary dynamics is valid to a very good approximation.
Thus state reduction (= collapse) is not in contradiction with the unitary dynamics of an isolated system.
Of course the interaction with the electromagnetic field on the fundamental level is also described by unitary time evolution. QED is a QT as any other!stevendaryl said:I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by this. Are you just saying that because the system of interest is constantly interacting with the environment (the electromagnetic field), you can't use unitary evolution, because that only describes an isolated system?
Well, it's described by ##\hat{\rho}=\hat{1}/2##. There's no direction whatsoever. That's why it's called "unpolarized" and thus the distribution must not contain any direction ;-)).stevendaryl said:Yes. And it's also striking that an equal mixture of spin-up and spin-down in the z-direction leads to the same mixed state as an equal mixture of spin-up and spin-down in the x-direction.
It uses an unconventionally broad notion of decoherence - which is usually reserved for the very fast decay of off-diagonal entries in a density matrix given as matrix elements between pointer states.Mentz114 said:http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0301032v1.pdf
I would like to know what @A. Neumaier thinks of the paper.
I think many will agree that the best textbook on decoherence is the one by Schlosshauer:vanhees71 said:Where can I find this? I've only looked into the online version of the book a bit. The formula-to-text ratio is a bit too small to make it attractive enough for me to buy it yet. Is it nevertheless good? Of course Haroche is a Nobel Laureat, but that doesn't neceessarily imply that he writes good textbooks ;-)).
Demystifier said:I think many will agree that the best textbook on decoherence is the one by Schlosshauer:
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It's one of my bibles too. (The only Bible for decoherence, anyway.)bhobba said:
I have a copy - its my bible.
You seem to think that stochastic processes must always be given by stochastic differential equations. But this is not true.vanhees71 said:Also in stochastic equations there are no jumps but fluctuating (generalized) forces.
rubi said:Well, I believe that experimenters can provide us with a bunch of numbers, but I don't really commit to anything beyond that. Apparently, something is really odd about nature, since the idea that we can assign numbers to all properties of its parts in a consistent way must be given up, and I have no idea what that implies for the interpretation of the measurement results. This is of course an interesting philosophical question, but physicists must accept it as a fact, just like they must accept the constancy of the speed of light.
I don't have a cut. It would be consistent with QM if the present me believes to have measured a bunch of numbers and the future me concludes that the present me was in a superposition of having measured one set of numbers and another set of numbers. That can happen if the observables that correspond to the knowledge of the present me and the future me don't commute. Hopefully decoherence comes to the rescue and ensures that the present me and the future me don't disagree so much.atyy said:So you still have a cut - why do you think this is different from the Heisenberg cut you reject?
rubi said:I don't have a cut. It would be consistent with QM if the present me believes to have measured a bunch of numbers and the future me concludes that the present me was in a superposition of having measured one set of numbers and another set of numbers. That can happen if the observables that correspond to the knowledge of the present me and the future me don't commute. Hopefully decoherence comes to the rescue and ensures that the present me and the future me don't disagree so much.
[emoji15] Ouch. Wouldn't it require a cut between the multiple "present you(s)" to arrive at the single later you?rubi said:I don't have a cut. It would be consistent with QM if the present me believes to have measured a bunch of numbers and the future me concludes that the present me was in a superposition of having measured one set of numbers and another set of numbers. That can happen if the observables that correspond to the knowledge of the present me and the future me don't commute. Hopefully decoherence comes to the rescue and ensures that the present me and the future me don't disagree so much.
Let's assume I can be described by quantum mechanics as well, just as any other kind of matter in the universe. Let's work in the Heisenberg picture. There is a time-independent quantum state ##\Psi##. Let's assume for simplicity that my knowledge at time ##t## of the measurement results is encoded by a single observable ##X(t)## for every ##t##. It might be that ##\Psi## is an eigenstate of ##X(10)##: ##X(10)\Psi = x\Psi##. The information of the future me (##t=10##) about the measurement results is encoded in the real number ##x##. However, it might be that ##[X(0),X(10)]\neq 0##, so they don't share a common basis of (generalized) eigenvectors and thus the vector ##\Psi##, expanded in the eigenbasis of ##X(0)## might be given by a superposition ##\Psi=\sum a_i \phi_i##. Of course, if the ##X(t)## commute, this isn't an issue.atyy said:Why doesn't the present you believe yourself to be in a superposition?
rubi said:Let's assume I can be described by quantum mechanics as well, just as any other kind of matter in the universe. Let's work in the Heisenberg picture. There is a time-independent quantum state ##\Psi##. Let's assume for simplicity that my knowledge at time ##t## of the measurement results is encoded by a single observable ##X(t)## for every ##t##. It might be that ##\Psi## is an eigenstate of ##X(10)##: ##X(10)\Psi = x\Psi##. The information of the future me (##t=10##) about the measurement results is encoded in the real number ##x##. However, it might be that ##[X(0),X(10)]\neq 0##, so they don't share a common basis of (generalized) eigenvectors and thus the vector ##\Psi##, expanded in the eigenbasis of ##X(0)## might be given by a superposition ##\Psi=\sum a_i \phi_i##. Of course, if the ##X(t)## commute, this isn't an issue.
I don't need a cut. I have a quantum state ##\Psi## and lots of observables that account for any question that I could ask. If some of these observables don't commute, then they can't have definite values at the same "time". Of course, it's very uncommon to include actual physicists into the description of the quantum system.Feeble Wonk said:[emoji15] Ouch. Wouldn't it require a cut between the multiple "present you(s)" to arrive at the single later you?
It doesn't explain anything. It just describes it. As I said earlier, I have no idea how to interpret the fact that nature prohibits us to describe it using a bunch of numbers that can be known simultaneously. I'm just saying that it is internally consistent, although it may seem pretty weird sometimes. QM has made many weird predictions in the past and all of them have been shown to be consistent with experiments.atyy said:Isn't that the reply for why your future self believes the present self to be in a superposition?
How does it explain why the present self believes the present self not to be in a superposition?
rubi said:It doesn't explain anything. It just describes it. As I said earlier, I have no idea how to interpret the fact that nature prohibits us to describe it using a bunch of numbers that can be known simultaneously. I'm just saying that it is internally consistent, although it may seem pretty weird sometimes. QM has made many weird predictions in the past and all of them have been shown to be consistent with experiments.
It doesn't need to believe that. The formalism says that the present me will use one of of the eigenvalues of ##X(0)## correpsonding to the eigenvectors ##\phi_i## as the information about the measurement results and if I were to repeat this experiment many times, this choice will be distributed according to the probabilities ##|a_i|^2##.atyy said:No, I don't mean "explain" in that sense. I would like to know where in the formalism it says that the present self believes itself not to be in a superposition.
rubi said:It doesn't need to believe that. The formalism says that the present me will use one of of the eigenvalues of ##X(0)## correpsonding to the eigenvectors ##\phi_i## as the information about the measurement results and if I were to repeat this experiment many times, this choice will be distributed according to the probabilities ##|a_i|^2##.
The observables ##X(t)## encode my knowledge of the measurement results. The measurement results themselves are contained in an observable ##A## corresponding the the apparatus. At every point in time, I believe to have obtained a measurement result. Quantum theory doesn't predict, which one. It's just that this knowledge isn't consistent over time unless the observables commute (which is hopefully ensured by decoherence).atyy said:But you never actually get a measurement result, do you? At least not from the viewpoint of future you?
bhobba said:That's impossible - utterly impossible. A cat can never - never be alive and dead. Cats are decohered to have definite position. The position of the constituent parts of a cat are different for alive and dead cats.
I'm clearly missing something critical here. My understanding was that the "warm and noisy" environment of the brain essentially guarantees decoherence and associated state reduction.rubi said:In principle, the matter that consitutes the physicist should be governed by the same laws as the rest of the universe and the knowledge of the physicist should somehow be encoded in the motion of the particles in his brain, so in principle it should be possible to eliminate the cut completely.
Thanks. But the question is, what do we mean by an "isolated system"? Standard approaches cannot explain what gives rise to non-unitary collapse. Under TI, unitary dynamics takes place in the absence of responses from absorbing systems. As soon as you have absorber response, you get the non-unitary von Neumann measurement transition.A. Neumaier said:Unitary dynamics for small quantum systems is extremely well disproved - people in quantum optics always have to work with dissipative, nonunitary dynamics to describe their small systems quantitatively. Thus it is an experimental fact that small quantum systems cannot be described by unitary evolution.
The reason is that they are almost never isolated enough to justify the unitary approximation. The state reduction or collapse accounts for that.
On the other hand, if one makes a quantum system big enough that its interaction with the neglected environment can be ignored (which is often the case in macroscopic situations) or can be described by classical external interaction terms then unitary dynamics is valid to a very good approximation.
Thus state reduction (= collapse) is not in contradiction with the unitary dynamics of an isolated system.
Did you see my discussion of Wallace's 'auxiliary condition' as ostensibly part of the 'bare' (Unitary-only) theory? http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.04845bhobba said:That I am not sure of.
Regarding Zurek it boils down to the typical modelling thing - there are hidden assumptions in Zurek for sure - but if they are 'benign' or not is the debate. An example is the decision theoretic approach of Wallace. I have read his book and its pretty tight if you accept using decision theory is a valid approach. For some (me include) its rather obvious - for others - it makes no sense. Personally I find Zurek just another interpretation - and not my favoured one.
Thanks
Bill
naima said:The sum of |dead><dead| and|alive><alive| is diagonal . Why are you talking about dead AND alive?
rkastner said:Did you see my discussion of Wallace's 'auxiliary condition' as ostensibly part of the 'bare' (Unitary-only) theory? http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.04845
Well, you can add them and if you properly normalize them, it corresponds to a statistical mixture of dead and alive.naima said:If we consider that we have |dead><dead| and|alive><alive| can we get an inner composition law thar generalises the superposition law?
Yes, the brain is a pretty classical object and there should be a lot of decoherence. That's why the phenomenon I described should be very unlikely. State reduction is only apparent, but that doesn't cause problems, since the relative frequencies predicted by state reduction and apparent state reduction are the same and only those are observable.Feeble Wonk said:I'm clearly missing something critical here. My understanding was that the "warm and noisy" environment of the brain essentially guarantees decoherence and associated state reduction.
It doesn't differ. It's the same phenomenon as in the Schrödinger cat experiment, but now applied to physicists at different times. In both situations, decoherence is supposed to account for the observed classicality.Regardless of your interpretational preference, I'm still confused by the idea that the "post-observation" physicist could retrospectively view his brain as being in superposition (with respect to the observation outcome) at the time of observation.
How does this differ from opening the box and seeing whether the cat is dead or alive, then closing the box and claiming that it's state is still unknown?
rubi said:Well, you can add them and if you properly normalize them, it corresponds to a statistical mixture of dead and alive.
rubi said:The observables ##X(t)## encode my knowledge of the measurement results. The measurement results themselves are contained in an observable ##A## corresponding the the apparatus. At every point in time, I believe to have obtained a measurement result. Quantum theory doesn't predict, which one. It's just that this knowledge isn't consistent over time unless the observables commute (which is hopefully ensured by decoherence).
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By the way, I'm not convinced that the domain of applicability of QM extends to such scenarios, but one can pretend it does and see what follows from it. In principle, the matter that consitutes the physicist should be governed by the same laws as the rest of the universe and the knowledge of the physicist should somehow be encoded in the motion of the particles in his brain, so in principle it should be possible to eliminate the cut completely. Of course, this is nowhere near practical. In quantum gravity, such considerations are forced upon us, because we are dealing with a fully constrained Hamiltonian system and all physics is supposed to arise from looking at correlations.
I understand that he proposes additional ways to add density matrices and it might be useful in some situations, but I don't see how it is relevant to the interpretation of QM. A density matrix contains the information about all probability distributions of the observables, but in order to obtain these distributions, it doesn't matter where this density matrix came from.naima said:Bhobba did not read the manko paper. Did you?
Manko gives a recipe to get all the ways to "add" the density matrices. the first is to add rhe density matrices. another corresponds to add the vectors. And between them you have other inner composition laws with various fringe visibility.
He uses a trick to manage the phases.
The week end is coming. Take the time to read it!
arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0207033
Well, I put all matter on the quantum side, so there is nothing left on the "other side of the cut". The "knowledge of the measurement results" is just my way to avoid having to explain how information is encoded in the brain. As a toy model, we could certainly assume that the information about a spin measurement is encoded in the spin of a certain electron within some neuron. Light rays are reflected from the pointer of the measurement apparatus and hit the eye of the physicist. The matter of the eyes interacts with the brain matter and the brain might eventually store the information in the spin of some electron. This is almost certainly not how it works, but I'm not a neuroscientist and modeling the realistic way of how information is stored within the brain just makes the model more complex, but not conceptually different. The point is that if all matter in the universe is described on the quantum side, then nothing remains on the classical side, so there is no Heisenberg cut.atyy said:I don't think you have gotten rid of the cut, since you still refer to your "knowledge of the measurement results". So you need the concept of something which can have knowledge, by which you presumably don't include a single electron.
rubi said:I understand that he proposes additional ways to add density matrices and it might be useful in some situations, but I don't see how it is relevant to the interpretation of QM. A density matrix contains the information about all probability distributions of the observables, but in order to obtain these distributions, it doesn't matter where this density matrix came from.
rubi said:Well, I put all matter on the quantum side, so there is nothing left on the "other side of the cut". The "knowledge of the measurement results" is just my way to avoid having to explain how information is encoded in the brain. As a toy model, we could certainly assume that the information about a spin measurement is encoded in the spin of a certain electron within some neuron. Light rays are reflected from the pointer of the measurement apparatus and hit the eye of the physicist. The matter of the eyes interacts with the brain matter and the brain might eventually store the information in the spin of some electron. This is almost certainly not how it works, but I'm not a neuroscientist and modeling the realistic way of how information is stored within the brain just makes the model more complex, but not conceptually different. The point is that if all matter in the universe is described on the quantum side, then nothing remains on the classical side, so there is no Heisenberg cut.