How does rotation influence the motion of objects like a thrown pen?

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    Rotation Work
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the influence of rotation on the motion of objects, specifically using the example of a thrown pen. Participants explore the complexities of rotational dynamics, including angular momentum, wobbling motion, and the effects of external forces. The scope includes theoretical considerations and potential calculations related to rigid body motion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes rotation as being defined by an axis through the mass center and angular velocity, but notes that a thrown pen exhibits complex motion including wobbling.
  • Another participant argues that the pen's rotation is not symmetrical due to mass imbalances and external forces, leading to gyroscopic effects and multiple axes of rotation.
  • A different contribution emphasizes that the pen's motion can be analyzed as a rigid body problem, involving both orbital and spin angular momentum, and suggests that calculations can be performed for each axis of rotation separately.
  • One participant questions whether the problem is indeed a first-year university topic, suggesting that there may be more than two motions involved in the pen's dynamics.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the number of motions and suggests looking into simulations related to the moons of Mars for further understanding of rotational dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the complexity of the pen's motion and the number of axes involved in its rotation. There is no consensus on whether this topic is straightforward or if it encompasses multiple motions that complicate the analysis.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of their models, including assumptions about symmetry, mass distribution, and external forces. There is also mention of unresolved mathematical steps in the analysis of the pen's motion.

TriKri
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Can someone explain to me, how does rotation work?

I thought before that rotation of an object could be described by an axis through the mass center of the object, and an angular velocity (this would be equal to describing the rotation as an angular momentum). This means that the rotation would cause the object to turn around 360 degrees in a certain time, and come back to the same possition after a whole turn.

But if I throw a pen up in the air, it won't be as simple as that. It will rotate fast around one axis (the one going through both ends of the pen), but it will also wobble. So after it has turned one time around the axis, it will not be back in the same possition, since it has also wobbled a little bit. So, how do you describe rotation, and how do you use it in calculations?
 
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Your model description is one of a simplistic system. The pen in question is not symmetrical in surface area or mass dispersion. When thrown in the air it is not rotating along its mass centers, nor are the frictional effects of air interaction symmetrical. Your pen is both rotating along its longitudinal center and its lateral centers. Initially the spins have axix induced by the external forces of the throw, not the centers of mass. The mass imbalances are causing direction changes interacting with gyroscopic forces of the spinning pen. If the pen had sufficient time to fall without additional forces of friction it would stabilize into a mass balanced centered single axis spin, although it would not be the pen's visual center by any means. As far as calculations go, you must analyze the system into smaller more simplistic ones then integrate the small systems into an overall complex system.
 
TriKri said:
Can someone explain to me, how does rotation work?

I thought before that rotation of an object could be described by an axis through the mass center of the object, and an angular velocity (this would be equal to describing the rotation as an angular momentum). This means that the rotation would cause the object to turn around 360 degrees in a certain time, and come back to the same possition after a whole turn.

But if I throw a pen up in the air, it won't be as simple as that. It will rotate fast around one axis (the one going through both ends of the pen), but it will also wobble. So after it has turned one time around the axis, it will not be back in the same possition, since it has also wobbled a little bit. So, how do you describe rotation, and how do you use it in calculations?
This is a rigid body problem. Basically the pen will rotates on itself and in the same time its center of mass would describe a parabola. The angular momentum of the pen is in this case the sum of 2 angular momentums : the orbital one (due to the translation motion of the pen into the air) and the spin one (due to its rotation on itself). So it is a common problem (1st year university) to solve. (if you are asking the equations of motion. From it you can determinate what would be the velocity of any point of the pen at any given time).
You might like to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigid_body and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigid_body_dynamics.
Have a nice time.
P.S.: I misunderstood something, but I think I get it now. You mean it would rotates around 2 axis so just do the calculations for an axis and do the same for the other axis. The problem remains solved I believe.
 
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fluidistic said:
The angular momentum of the pen is in this case the sum of 2 angular momentums : the orbital one (due to the translation motion of the pen into the air) and the spin one (due to its rotation on itself). So it is a common problem (1st year university) to solve.

Don't know if it is first year thing, cause if these two motions alone the posed returning of starting point would be there. I see at least three motions in here...

I don't know whether there a simulations on the one strange (of the two) moons of Mars are available, or numbers/formula-on-calculating 1 the orbit 2 axial rotation around longest axis 3 rotation around centre of mass 4 deflection caused by gravitational irragularity.
 

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