How Is the Number of Electric Field Lines Calculated in Gauss' Law?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of electric field lines in the context of Gauss' Law, specifically addressing the interpretation of the number of electric field lines associated with a point charge and the conceptual nature of these lines as a visualization tool. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical representations, and the physical meaning of electric flux.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that electric field lines are an imaginary concept used to visualize electric fields, questioning how a numerical value like 1.129x10^11 can be derived from Gauss' Law for a 1 coulomb charge.
  • One participant suggests that the electric displacement field (D) provides a clearer understanding, as the number of lines corresponds to the surface charge density, implying a direct relationship between charge and lines of force.
  • Another participant argues against the existence of "lines" of force in electrostatics and magnetism, stating that visual representations do not prove their existence.
  • A participant compares the abstract nature of counting electric field lines to counting grains of sand, emphasizing the challenge of justifying specific numerical claims in the absence of visible entities.
  • It is mentioned that the number derived from Gauss' Law represents electric flux rather than a count of physical lines, and that the choice of how many lines to draw is arbitrary and depends on the amount of flux each line represents.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and existence of electric field lines, with some supporting their conceptual utility while others contest their physical reality. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the numerical value associated with electric field lines.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the abstract nature of electric field lines and the challenges in quantifying them, noting that the calculations depend on definitions and assumptions about electric flux and surface charge density.

ananthu
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The electric flux around a charge is represented by electric lines of force. But it is said that the electric lines of force is purely an imaginary concept to visualize a field. In the Gauss' law, using the formula q/epsilon we calculate the total number of lines of force. For a charge of 1 coulomb, it works around 1.129x10^11 in free space. How do you explain this exact number they arrive at?

Is this number is a real one and if it is so, then how is it possible to count the number of some thing which itself is just an imaginary way of visualizing an abstract idea? Does it mean that actually so many number of lines are emerging from a point charge like fine hairs sticking out of a sphere in space?
 
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ananthu said:
… In the Gauss' law, using the formula q/epsilon we calculate the total number of lines of force. For a charge of 1 coulomb, it works around 1.129x10^11 in free space. How do you explain this exact number they arrive at?

It makes a lot more sense if you look at the flux of the displacement D field, rather than the E field …

the electric displacement field D has lines of force coming perpendicularly out of a conductor, and (in equilibrium, where all the charge is on the surface) the number of lines equals the surface charge density: D = σ.

So D is measured in coulombs per square metre (C/m2).

The electric field E however is measured so that we can use it in the Lorentz force equation, F = qE, so E is measured in Newtons per coulomb (N/C).

To convert one to the other, we define (in the absence of polarisation) D = εE, where ε is the permittivity of the medium (in anisotropic media, ε is a tensor so the two fields needn't be parallel).

In vacuum, ε = ε0, the permittivity of the vacuum.

It equals 1/µ0c2 where c is the speed of light and µ0 is the permeability of the vacuum.

µ0 is defined as 4π 10-7 henrys per metre (H/m), and µ0c2 happens to be around 1.129 1011 henry metres per second squared (Hm/s2), so ε0 is around 8.85 10-12 farads per metre (F/m).

(a henry times a farad equals a second squared: HF = s2)

(C/m2 per N/C = C2/Nm per m = C2/J per m = F/m)

If it wasn't for that arbitrary 10-7 in the definition of µ0, then ε0 would simply be 1/4πc2 (in farads per metre). :wink:
Is this number is a real one and if it is so, then how is it possible to count the number of some thing which itself is just an imaginary way of visualizing an abstract idea? Does it mean that actually so many number of lines are emerging from a point charge like fine hairs sticking out of a sphere in space?

For the D field, the number of lines is the surface charge density, so it's as if there's one line sticking out of each charge.
 
hmm lines o force

I think there is no such thing as "lines" of force in either magnetism or electrostatics

Iron fillings will line up in what seems to be lines but that does not prove the lines exist.
 
thanks for all the reply.

Regarding. tiny-tim's reply, the explanation is too technical to explain to a class of higher secondary school students.

When I say that there are millions of sand grains present in the handful of sand I hold, it is o.k.
No body will question us. But if I say, there are 15 lakh, 28 thousand and 233 sand grains in my hand, then I should justify the number I assert.

There is another difference in the above comparison also. At least, in the case of sand example. there is some possibility of counting them as they are visible.
 
hi ananthu! :smile:
ananthu said:
Regarding. tiny-tim's reply, the explanation is too technical to explain to a class of higher secondary school students.

what's technical about …
tiny-tim said:
For the D field, the number of lines is the surface charge density, so it's as if there's one line sticking out of each charge.

… ?? :confused:
 
ananthu said:
The electric flux around a charge is represented by electric lines of force. But it is said that the electric lines of force is purely an imaginary concept to visualize a field. In the Gauss' law, using the formula q/epsilon we calculate the total number of lines of force. For a charge of 1 coulomb, it works around 1.129x10^11 in free space. How do you explain this exact number they arrive at?
The "number" you get is actually not just a number, and it doesn't count anything. It's a value with units,
[tex]\frac{1\ \mathrm{C}}{\epsilon_0} = 1.129\times 10^{11}\ \mathrm{Vm}[/tex]
(that's volt-meters). It represents the total amount of electric flux coming out of the charge.

Whenever you draw electric field lines, you have to choose an amount of flux for each line to represent. For example, you might choose to have one line per [itex]1.41\times 10^{10}\ \mathrm{Vm}[/itex] of flux, and in that case there will be 8 lines coming out of a 1-coulomb charge. Of course, usually you just pick a number of lines to draw and don't worry about exactly how much flux each one represents, but still, that choice is implicitly being made.
 

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