How Long Can You Go Without Sleep?

[wolram]

Due to my illness i have not slept for 72 hours, i have had some cat naps of 10 mins or so,
my question is how long could a body keep this up.

 

[g33kski11z]

Not sure how long the 'average person' can last, but while in boot camp, I had to stay awake for four day's once..

.. it sucked.

 

[FlexGunship]

Due to my illness i have not slept for 72 hours, i have had some cat naps of 10 mins or so,
my question is how long could a body keep this up.

72 hours?! That means you already got your second wind (around 32 hours awake) and now you're into the downward spiral. I'm not sure what your illness it, but I'd talk to a doctor about some Ambien (or something comparable). The ability to induce a deep sleep is pretty important.

If you don't get enough sleep, as your brain begins to lose control, you're likely to start new threads in the General Discussion forum!

 

[JaredJames]

If you don't get enough sleep, as your brain begins to lose control, you're likely to start new threads in the General Discussion forum!

Don't you mean philosophy?

 

[Evo]

Due to my illness i have not slept for 72 hours, i have had some cat naps of 10 mins or so,
my question is how long could a body keep this up.

Wolram, that's bad. Tell your doctor you're not sleeping, rest is so important especially when you are ill.

 

[graphene]

72hr is insane. i am surprised you can actually sit in front of your comp & make this post.
i think I've exceeded 24hr a couple of times and it gets really bad. i feel exhausted but just don't fall asleep or maybe sleep for 2hr and wake up! quite crazy, i don't understand why that happens.
on the contrary if i sleep a lot, like in excess of 10hr, i feel lazy all day & start feeling sleepy earlier.

 

[leroyjenkens]

How long before you die? People can live for several months without sleep and not die. You eventually die, but I don't know what actually causes the death.

 

[lisab]

I hope Wooly's sleeping now!

 

[drizzle]

If you don't get enough sleep, as your brain begins to lose control, you're likely to start new threads in the General Discussion forum!

Haha. I'm a bit hesitant, that's why I insist to lock PFRT.



WAKE UP Wooly! You've had enough sleep. We need you to start another thread.

 

[nismaratwork]

The fact that you're getting even brief naps is very good, but Evo is right: tell your doctor. I don't know what your illness is, but if we're talking about an infection of some kind, remember that sleep is (probably) crucial to the maintenance of your immune system.

Anyway, to directly answer you: unless exhaustion becomes part of a larger crash, then it's an issue. Generally, people will become so exhausted that they'll begin to "lose time", and experience cat-naps while apparently awake: that would be your second BIG warning sign.

The warning sign you need to be aware of, that will be your bell-weather in the world of sleep deprivation, are 2 classes of hallucinations.
The first are... first... and appear to be dark (often brown) spots or blobs just at the corners of the vision, racing out of the field of vision. The second, far more worrying, is the perception of insects on or in the skin, and is a sign that there is damage beginning to occur in the brain.

In terms of actually living through this?... not the issue: unless you have a grave illness of a peculiar type, this won't kill you directly. It DOES put you at a far greater risk for muscular and connective tissue injuries, and other injury while driving or even during normal activity. Over time, generally around the 7 day mark, you begin to do irreversible damage to your brain that gets ugly very quickly, and eventually people essentially begin to experience REM while appearing awake and...

paranoia
psychosis
fatal cardiac event (especially arrhythmia)
damage to the hippocampus and probably a lot more
coma
death

So... yeah, get some sleep, but 72, or even 96 hours will make you miserable beyond belief, but it won't kill you. Stay hydrated, stay safe, and contact your GP or an ER if this persists: you need sleep to live, and brain chemistry is variable; don't take risks on when you'll start to do lasting damage.

 

[mugaliens]

The fact that you're getting even brief naps is very good, but Evo is right: tell your doctor. I don't know what your illness is, but if we're talking about an infection of some kind, remember that sleep is (probably) crucial to the maintenance of your immune system.

Anyway, to directly answer you: unless exhaustion becomes part of a larger crash, then it's an issue. Generally, people will become so exhausted that they'll begin to "lose time", and experience cat-naps while apparently awake: that would be your second BIG warning sign.

The warning sign you need to be aware of, that will be your bell-weather in the world of sleep deprivation, are 2 classes of hallucinations.
The first are... first... and appear to be dark (often brown) spots or blobs just at the corners of the vision, racing out of the field of vision. The second, far more worrying, is the perception of insects on or in the skin, and is a sign that there is damage beginning to occur in the brain.

In terms of actually living through this?... not the issue: unless you have a grave illness of a peculiar type, this won't kill you directly. It DOES put you at a far greater risk for muscular and connective tissue injuries, and other injury while driving or even during normal activity. Over time, generally around the 7 day mark, you begin to do irreversible damage to your brain that gets ugly very quickly, and eventually people essentially begin to experience REM while appearing awake and...

paranoia
psychosis
fatal cardiac event (especially arrhythmia)
damage to the hippocampus and probably a lot more
coma
death

So... yeah, get some sleep, but 72, or even 96 hours will make you miserable beyond belief, but it won't kill you. Stay hydrated, stay safe, and contact your GP or an ER if this persists: you need sleep to live, and brain chemistry is variable; don't take risks on when you'll start to do lasting damage.

Back at OTS, we called our main lecture hall the "big blue room," and and I experienced REM sleep while awake along with perhaps a third of the others in my class. Thank God that didn't last.

Years later, I averaged less than 2.5 hrs of sleep a night for 34 months before finally obtaining the appropriate help.

Some docs are great! Some docs are retards. I got the latter for nearly 3 years. The guy who finally helped me with the proper meds wasn't a doc at all. He was a psychiatric nurse.

Go fig.

 

[Proton Soup]

now would be a good time to watch http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0137523/"

 

[TylerH]

Several months. People with FFI suffer through similar symptoms, but astronomically worse, for almost a year. You really should see a doctor. But if for some reason that's not possible, I recommend at least getting some melatonin pills.

 

[rootX]

I found today that polar bears can stay awake and travel continuously for more than a week; however, I need at least 8 hours of sleep to function normal. 10 hours sleep is ideal. I cannot think when I don't get 7 hours sleep at minimum in a period of 24 hours.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Randy Gardner holds the scientifically documented record for the longest period of time a human being has intentionally gone without sleep not using stimulants of any kind. In 1964—as a 17-year-old high school student in San Diego, California—Gardner stayed awake for 264 hours (eleven days), breaking the previous record of 260 hours held by Tom Rounds of Honolulu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder )

Personally I feel like I've been hit by a train if I get less than say five hours of sleep a night.

 

[wolram]

Wolram, that's bad. Tell your doctor you're not sleeping, rest is so important especially when you are ill.

My psychiatrist has doubled the dose of Zopiclone to 7,i/2 mg even that hasn't worked, i did get a couple of hours sleep last night thou.

 

[nismaratwork]

Back at OTS, we called our main lecture hall the "big blue room," and and I experienced REM sleep while awake along with perhaps a third of the others in my class. Thank God that didn't last.

Years later, I averaged less than 2.5 hrs of sleep a night for 34 months before finally obtaining the appropriate help.

Some docs are great! Some docs are retards. I got the latter for nearly 3 years. The guy who finally helped me with the proper meds wasn't a doc at all. He was a psychiatric nurse.

Go fig.

Never underestimate a nurse, especially nurses who bother to specialize: they run hospitals at the non-administrative level. I'm glad you got that help, but it's more than a little painful to know that there are many MANY others who are stuck with, "the latter" until they say, 'the hell with this,' and drink or take drugs that do the job.

Then, years later, some little punk can step over them on the street, because, "we take care of our veterans."


Greg: Randy was lucky that he was young: his brain had a chance to re-wire around the damage, and less damage was probably done to begin with. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-can-humans-stay

I assume this is where you got the Gardner info? Remember, "awake" for 11 days without chemical aids = not awake for 11 days. Now, take the case of that radio host in the 50's who DID use amphetamines to truly STAY AWAKE, until even the drugs stopped doing the trick and he lapsed into waking REM (long term, not brief). They cut the experiment, but his personality had so changed that his wife divorced him, he lost most of his previous social contacts, and by all accounts had become moody and erratic.

Even with the body desperately going DIRECTLY to REM sleep (Gardner), you still have this observation:

The easy experimental answer to this question is 264 hours (about 11 days). In 1965, Randy Gardner, a 17-year-old high school student, set this apparent world-record for a science fair. Several other normal research subjects have remained awake for eight to 10 days in carefully monitored experiments. None of these individuals experienced serious medical, neurological, physiological or psychiatric problems. On the other hand, all of them showed progressive and significant deficits in concentration, motivation, perception and other higher mental processes as the duration of sleep deprivation increased. Nevertheless, all experimental subjects recovered to relative normality within one or two nights of recovery sleep. Other anecdotal reports describe soldiers staying awake for four days in battle, or unmedicated patients with mania going without sleep for three to four days.

The more difficult answer to this question revolves around the definition of "awake." As mentioned above, prolonged sleep deprivation in normal subjects induces altered states of consciousness (often described as "microsleep"), numerous brief episodes of overwhelming sleep, and loss of cognitive and motor functions. We all know about the dangerous, drowsy driver, and we have heard about sleep-deprived British pilots who crashed their planes (having fallen asleep) while flying home from the war zone during World War II. Randy Gardner was "awake" but basically cognitively dysfunctional at the end of his ordeal.

In the case of rats, however, continuous sleep deprivation for about two weeks or more inevitably caused death in experiments conducted in Allan Rechtschaffen�s sleep laboratory at the University of Chicago. Two animals lived on a rotating disc over a pool of water, separated by a fixed wall. Brainwaves were recorded continuously into a computer program that almost instantaneously recognized the onset of sleep. When the experimental rat fell asleep, the disc was rotated to keep it awake by bumping it against the wall and threatening to push the animal into the water. Control rats could sleep when the experimental rat was awake but were moved equally whenever the experimental rat started to sleep. The cause of death was not proven but was associated with whole body hypermetabolism.

Again, 7 days, awake, you're in trouble... 8-10 is a record unaided, and you're a complete basket case after... it's that RAPID decline that's so troubling, and why it's better just to avoid sleep deprivation if you can.

As a practical answer to the question: '[Wolram] cannot sleep for 3 days, and is concerned,' should be: yeah, that's cause for a little concern, and medication.'

 

[nismaratwork]

My psychiatrist has doubled the dose of Zopiclone to 7,i/2 mg even that hasn't worked, i did get a couple of hours sleep last night thou.

Huh... you know Zopiclone (stereo-isomer of 'Lunesta') is great at inducing sleep, but it can also disrupt the normal course of REM sleep. I'm not questioning your doctor's choice, and I can understand wanting to stay away from benzodiazapines or barbiturates, BUT...

... Zopiclone can cause rebound-insomnia, so it may be that by the time your nightly dose "kicks in", you're really just feeding a growing tolerance to fight the rebound. It might be worth exploring with your doctor, if this medication is helping you in the manner intended, or if this is just shifting to a less obvious and legally "pernicious" dependence? If you're going to be taking a strong, addictive hypnotic, you might as well go for one that does the job.

 

[wolram]

Thanks for all the replies guys, you don't know how much it means to me to have some one to talk to.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks for all the replies guys, you don't know how much it means to me to have some one to talk to.

Hang in there wooly ram... you have a doctor there who has you in their care, and what I like to call (the Evo/MIH crew) there for you at bare minimum! Remember, even if you can't sleep, a little meditation or self-hypnosis, change of scenery (even if it's changing rooms) can help.

Impairment comes before damage, so everyone here and in your life will know you need help before you NEED it right away. The internet may not be life, but it has its moments.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'd say a day of physical labor, followed by a feast in the evening, and maybe that aforementioned melatonin.

 

[nismaratwork]

i'd say a day of physical labor, followed by a feast in the evening, and maybe that aforementioned melatonin.

If the psychiatrist OK's it, and it's compatible with your illness, you could just lift soup cans all day.

Good idea if passes the Dr's muster.

 

[Grep]

I always find the best cure for insomnia is the knowledge that it's time to get up and go to work.

Seriously though, hope everything works out for you, wolram. Insomnia can be pretty awful. Take care of yourself!

 

[wolram]

I always find the best cure for insomnia is the knowledge that it's time to get up and go to work.

Seriously though, hope everything works out for you, wolram. Insomnia can be pretty awful. Take care of yourself!

Thanks Grep, its 2 15 in the morning where i live, i just can not get any sleep .

 

[oddcitations]

That is horrible. Wolram, as a typical teenager, my usual sleeping habits run around 3-7 hours. You not sleeping for 72 hours and going, that's - how are not a walking zombie with peircing pain going up your brain every 5 seconds?! To sleep, some things that have worked for me include:
Sorting out some kind of inner conflict that's perhaps, subconsciously keeping me from sleeping.
Drugging myself on sleeping pills (always being careful with dosage)
Meditation, forcing myself to blank everything out and keep it out, even just for a bit.
Sleeping on the kitchen floor or basement floor(both these places have either marble flooring or minimal heating, it works, oddly enough.)
Excessively excersizing.
I'm so sorry you have to suffer this. :\

 

[wolram]

Thanks for the kind words oddcitations

 

[Evo]

Thanks for the kind words oddcitations

Wolram, I suffer from extremely severe chronic loss of sleep (years). I'll pm you tomorrow. I've been hanging by a string. It's devastating. Hopefully yours is short term.

 

[Proton Soup]

i just thought of something else that can be as exhausting as physical labor sometimes: being around people.

 

[nismaratwork]

i just thought of something else that can be as exhausting as physical labor sometimes: being around people.

Actually... there is some indication that social interaction to the point of mental exhaustion is helpful along with physical exhuastion.


The problem is that both tend to be good at INDUCING sleep, not MAINTAINING sleep.

I think that's why your Dr is giving you an XR hypnotic... to KEEP you asleep, but it doesn't sound as though either is working. If you'd like, I have a friend at Columbia med who's an endocrinologist (I may have mentioned elsewhere re: leg spasms... not sure), former paramedic, and now specializes in the medical end of sleep disorders. He may know of a compound or regimen which has shown some promise in cases such as yours.

Evo: I'd ask the same for you, but from what you'd said in the past it sounds like you're all over things already, and frankly... I'd be telling you what you already know. If I'm making a bad assumption there, let me know.

In the meantime, just in case this is more of a war than a battle, now while you're still in good shape, it might be good to find some kind of meditation (secular, religious, medical... whatever)... it can help pass time without consuming what you want to read, watch, type, etc.

 

[kakarotyjn]

what makes you sleepless?

 

[lisab]

i just thought of something else that can be as exhausting as physical labor sometimes: being around people.

I think that's only true for those of us who are introverts.

 

[nismaratwork]

I swear to god that this isn't another joke at your expense lisab... I just thought...Wolram, you live in Canada, right? Well... if you don't have a psychiatric condition other than insomnia, and no other risk factors (none of my business of course), then something like Marinol or another eaten form of cannabis could be useful. Certainly it's no more dangerous under supervision than what you're taking already!

note: If you have an anxiety disorder, psychotic disorder, history of substance abuse (seems unlikely given that you're being given what you are), or any other reason your doctor believes is relevant don't just "take some". I'm advocating only medically supervised use of legal analogues or extracts if it applies in your country, and your doctor believes that it could be useful.

Worst case scenario: You like it LESS than the stereo-i of Lunesta and just stop immediately.

 

[wolram]

Wolram, I suffer from extremely severe chronic loss of sleep (years). I'll pm you tomorrow. I've been hanging by a string. It's devastating. Hopefully yours is short term.

I find i can hardly funcion, i will look forwards to your pm

 

[nismaratwork]

I find i can hardly funcion, i will look forwards to your pm

re bold: That's an important statement: have you said exactly that to your psychiatrist? At this point, unless there is a stunning reason not to, I find it hard to see why s/he wouldn't turn to benzodiazapine or barbiturate therapy to treat this acute state. You obviously shouldn't be driving, but statistically you're at a higher risk of accidental injury and death as well: this needs to be addressed with more than EU-Lunesta, or at least a different approach.

 

[wolram]

Actually... there is some indication that social interaction to the point of mental exhaustion is helpful along with physical exhuastion.


The problem is that both tend to be good at INDUCING sleep, not MAINTAINING sleep.

I think that's why your Dr is giving you an XR hypnotic... to KEEP you asleep, but it doesn't sound as though either is working. If you'd like, I have a friend at Columbia med who's an endocrinologist (I may have mentioned elsewhere re: leg spasms... not sure), former paramedic, and now specializes in the medical end of sleep disorders. He may know of a compound or regimen which has shown some promise in cases such as yours.

Evo: I'd ask the same for you, but from what you'd said in the past it sounds like you're all over things already, and frankly... I'd be telling you what you already know. If I'm making a bad assumption there, let me know.

In the meantime, just in case this is more of a war than a battle, now while you're still in good shape, it might be good to find some kind of meditation (secular, religious, medical... whatever)... it can help pass time without consuming what you want to read, watch, type, etc.

Thanks that would be more than welcome.

 

[wolram]

re bold: That's an important statement: have you said exactly that to your psychiatrist? At this point, unless there is a stunning reason not to, I find it hard to see why s/he wouldn't turn to benzodiazapine or barbiturate therapy to treat this acute state. You obviously shouldn't be driving, but statistically you're at a higher risk of accidental injury and death as well: this needs to be addressed with more than EU-Lunesta, or at least a different approach.

I have not been allowed to drive since aug 08 and i lost my job, this was because i had black outs, the docs still don't know what causes them, it was later on that i developed severe depression.

 

[nismaratwork]

I have not been allowed to drive since aug 08 and i lost my job, this was because i had black outs, the docs still don't know what causes them, it was later on that i developed severe depression.

Really? That sounds a lot like Complex Partial Seizures...

Have you had a full workup by a neurologist, with EEG?

Of course, not sleeping, blacking out and losing your job would make anyone depressed, so it could be nothing, but it's something to consider. You could do a very cheap "test" with you psychiatrist (again, you need to run all of this over with him'her):

Gabapentin is a highly effective anticonvulsant, but it's extremely benign in terms of being a drug of abuse, or physically addictive. You might find it called, "Neurontin", or a number of other names, and it's often listed for it's off-label uses now (some of which have been discredited), but its primary use is an anti-epileptic.

It may be that a 600 mg dose is sufficient to show improvement if there's some occult seizure activity.

Edit: Oh, and the main side-effect: drowsiness...

 

[wolram]

Hi nismaratwork, i have had every test you think of, i spent a year going to hospital about once a month for different tests, including being wired up for a week long heart test and the same for brain, the latest drugs i am on is sodium valproate.

 

[nismaratwork]

Hi nismaratwork, i have had every test you think of, i spent a year going to hospital about once a month for different tests, including being wired up for a week long heart test and the same for brain, the latest drugs i am on is sodium valproate.

Well crap... it would have been nice (unlikely, but nice) if that had been so easy.

 

[pallidin]

Jeeze, that's hard one.
All I know(and I'm no doc) is that chronic lack of sleep can be very harmful, as certain critical cells in our body, such as in the heart, can not properly repair themselves without the function of deep sleep.

Wishing the best for you and, especially, hooking-up with the right doc.

 

[nismaratwork]

@Wolram: Do you mind telling me, here or on PM, if the Valproic acid eased the blackouts? I'm getting a picture of your underlying condition, and the choice of depakote + (nearly) Lunesta seems... odd.

I still think that an assay with Gabapentin might help to isolate seizure activity ONLY... it's been discredited as a mood stabilizer. Frankly, you COULD be suffering from adverse effects of the Valproic acid... it can be very rough.

If I had the choice, I'd wean you off your current regimen, add a mood stabilizer if needed, and use gabapantin and therapy aimed at inducing and maintaining sleep.

The more you describe your situation, the more it seems that it will not be a single fix to a single issue. I'd just say, and I know I keep repeating it (Sorry), but keep your doctor in the loop at all times with this exhaustion. Palladin is right, and with depakote and SI-Lunesta... ehhh... I'd be a little concerned about sleep deprivation leading to a long Q-T cardiac interval.

 

[wolram]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

 

[Evo]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

I love smarties.

I'm worried about you Wooly Ram. When we get married, I'll come take care of you.

 

[nismaratwork]

the Valproic acid and zopiclone seemed to work for the first three month, (no black outs)
but now i might just as well be taking smarties.

OK, that's not shocking given what you're taking. Zopiclone = rapid tolerance (within 3 weeks), and there's that rebound insomnia that can cause feedback to rapidly increase dosage.

Valproic Acid on the other hand... that's pretty steady as a mood-stabilizer, but people sometimes need more in the way of anti-seizure medication that is a little different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3136402

I'd question the use of Valproic Acid purely as an anti-seizure medication, and look to something less dangerous and more effective in that particular area: GABA-ergic medications such as Neurontin (Gabapentin), or an assay with barbiturates/benzodiazapines in-hospital (in case of paradoxical reaction, respiratory depression).

Remember, if your medication is no better to you than candy right now, your doctor needs to hear that. You have no idea how much feedback is the key to treatment... it's a major reason that veterinarians need to be such excellent diagnosticians. I know, tired as you are, and with whatever is the underlying cause of this issue... that it must be hard to do ANYTHING... is there someone in your life (friends, family, sweetie) who can act as an advocate for you?

 

[nismaratwork]

I love smarties.

I'm worried about you Wooly Ram. When we get married, I'll come take care of you.

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

You two are some of the most medically worrisome, "healthy" people I've met online! Good lord... it would be like putting two drug addicts together to 'get well'.

On the other hand, you'd both never be bored, or you'd kill each other. One or the other.

I'm really not used to being so stumped... usually it's all horses, but of course, you'd be zebras. PF... it's unique!

 

[physics girl phd]

I suffer from extremely severe chronic loss of sleep (years). I'll pm you tomorrow. I've been hanging by a string. It's devastating. Hopefully yours is short term.

I was wondering why you were up and on PF at something like 3AM your time (I'm up because I'm congested and slurping on couch drops to loosen the "uck").

Although it sounds weird: Have either of you ever tried acupuncture for this? I had a friend who had weeks of insomnia, then went to acupuncture therapy... and slept for two entire days after she got home (although if it works that good, YOU may want to have someone drive you). I don't think it was that expensive (she was a grad student at the time... although she did have a pretty wealthy boyfriend).

 

[lisab]

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

You two are some of the most medically worrisome, "healthy" people I've met online! Good lord... it would be like putting two drug addicts together to 'get well'.

On the other hand, you'd both never be bored, or you'd kill each other. One or the other.

They are, we worry about them both !

If Wooly and Evo ever meet, it will either be like heaven's angels singing and bringing about world peace, or a matter/antimatter annihilation!

 

[Borek]

Sigh. Wolly, my sympathy is with you.

 

[nismaratwork]

They are, we worry about them both !

If Wooly and Evo ever meet, it will either be like heaven's angels singing and bringing about world peace, or a matter/antimatter annihilation!

EXACTLY!... man, that "green" really gives you a way with words.

 

[wolram]

@Wolram: Do you mind telling me, here or on PM, if the Valproic acid eased the blackouts? I'm getting a picture of your underlying condition, and the choice of depakote + (nearly) Lunesta seems... odd.

I still think that an assay with Gabapentin might help to isolate seizure activity ONLY... it's been discredited as a mood stabilizer. Frankly, you COULD be suffering from adverse effects of the Valproic acid... it can be very rough.

If I had the choice, I'd wean you off your current regimen, add a mood stabilizer if needed, and use gabapantin and therapy aimed at inducing and maintaining sleep.

The more you describe your situation, the more it seems that it will not be a single fix to a single issue. I'd just say, and I know I keep repeating it (Sorry), but keep your doctor in the loop at all times with this exhaustion. Palladin is right, and with depakote and SI-Lunesta... ehhh... I'd be a little concerned about sleep deprivation leading to a long Q-T cardiac interval.

It seemed to work for the first couple of months, my meds don't seem to do any thing now,
The black outs can be any thing from twice a week to once a month.

Thanks for your help nismaratwork.