How Many Lumens Are Needed to See a Flashing LED at 500 Meters?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around determining the luminous intensity required to see a flashing LED from a distance of 500 meters at night. Participants explore calculations related to light intensity, human perception of light, and factors affecting visibility in the presence of ambient light.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the formula for intensity based on luminosity and distance, assuming isotropic radiation, and discusses the role of human pupil area in calculating light entering the eye.
  • Another participant inquires about integrating over the wavelength range for white light, seeking confirmation on their approach to the calculation.
  • A different participant emphasizes the biological aspects of human vision, noting that ambient light significantly affects visibility, using personal experience with seeing a firefly as an example.
  • One participant clarifies their original question, specifying the need to see a flashing LED clearly against city lights at a distance of 500 meters, asking for guidance on the required luminous intensity.
  • Another participant mentions that the human eye can detect very low light levels, referencing reports of single photons being visible under certain conditions, and introduces the concept of conspicuity as relevant to the discussion.
  • A participant points out the need for various specifications such as radiance, spectrum of emittance, contrast with background light, and the rate of flashing to accurately determine visibility requirements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the factors influencing visibility, including the impact of ambient light and the biological limitations of human vision. There is no consensus on a specific luminous intensity required, and multiple approaches to the problem are presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of various assumptions, such as the isotropic distribution of light and the influence of ambient conditions on visibility. The discussion includes unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on specific definitions related to light perception.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying optics, human physiology related to vision, or anyone involved in designing lighting systems for visibility in low-light conditions.

Shnuk
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Hey,

I want to know how many luminous (of lamp/led) do I need to see well a flashing lamp/led in the night in a distance of 500 meters.
I would like also to know how to calculate it.

Thanks ahead
 
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Here's one way you could do it. If you know the luminosity (i.e. wattage) of the lamp, you could calculate the intensity like this:

[tex]I = \dfrac{L}{4\pi r^2}[/tex]

This of course assumes that the radiation is distributed isotropically, which means you're not enclosing the lamp in a mirror or anything. Next, you can multiply the intensity by the surface area of a human pupil to find the total power of the light entering the eye:

[tex]P = IA[/tex]

[tex]P = \dfrac{LA}{4\pi r^2}[/tex]

Now, you can impose light quantization ([itex]E = nhc/\lambda[/itex]), and write:

[tex]P = \dfrac{hc}{\lambda}\dfrac{dn}{dt}[/tex]

[tex]\dfrac{LA}{4\pi r^2} = \dfrac{hc}{\lambda}\dfrac{dn}{dt}[/tex]

[tex]\dfrac{dn}{dt} = \dfrac{\lambda}{hc}\dfrac{LA}{4\pi r^2}[/tex]

Now we talk to the physiologists, who tell us that the human eye can see as little as ten photons per second (if the source is flashing). So you go and measure the area of the human pupil, plug in the 500 meters and the luminosity of the bulb as well as the wavelength (i.e. color) of the light, and see if you've got at least ten photons per second.

Of course my calculation didn't really take into account certain wave effects, like diffraction through the pupil, so this is really only a first approximation.
 
Hey,

Thanks you very much, that was a really good explanation.
I have one more question. If I want to calculate it for the white light, as I understand I need to integral
[tex]\int{\dfrac{dn}{dt}}{d{\lambda}} = \int{\dfrac{\lambda}{hc}\dfrac{LA}{4\pi r^2}{d{\lambda}}[/tex]
where lambda runs from 0.4um to 0.7um

Am I right?
if I am not, so how should I do?

Thanks ahead.
 
Math aside (and those were some great equations), remember that the eye is a biological structure that isn't governed entirely by such things. My eyesight isn't great by any means, but I can see a firefly flash at a hundred metres on a dead-dark night. With moonlight, or in daylight, I couldn't see the damned thing if it were sitting on the end of my nose. Ambient light plays a huge role in how things are perceived.
 
Maby my initial quiestion was wrong.
What I want is to see a flashing light diode (power diode) at a clear night from a distance of 500 meters when 3-4Km from me there are lights of a city.
I want to know what led should I choose (how many luminous does the led have) to see the flashing light clearly.

Thanks ahead
 
arunma said:
Now we talk to the physiologists, who tell us that the human eye can see as little as ten photons per second (if the source is flashing).
Single photons of sufficiently high energy have been reported as visible by astronauts.

The OP may be seeking conspicuity, that is a very specialized subject important to bicyclists.
 
Shnuk said:
Hey,

I want to know how many luminous (of lamp/led) do I need to see well a flashing lamp/led in the night in a distance of 500 meters.
I would like also to know how to calculate it.

Thanks ahead

You need a lot of specifications. First, a specification for the radiance or alternatively, a function of emittance with angle. That tells you how much light is going in a particular direction. Then you need to know the spectrum of emittance, because that tells you how well your eyes can see it (standard eyes, color blindness will affect this). Then you also need to know the contrast between the light and background. Finally, you need to know the rate of flashing- your vision has different acuity for flashing/moving lights than for static sources.

Some points of reference: for unresolved (point-like) sources, the visual threshold is about 1 milliLambert for 100% contrast, and 100 milliLambert for 20% contrast.
 

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