How to determine direction of a moment

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the direction of moments in a structural mechanics problem, specifically regarding the moment at point C due to a load P and the forces in member BD. Participants explore the implications of defining moment directions and the consistency of free body diagrams (FBDs) with moment equations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the direction of the moment at C due to load P, questioning if it should be clockwise or counter-clockwise based on the forces acting on member BD.
  • Another participant suggests that the direction of the force in member BD should be reversed, indicating that the force at point B is clockwise.
  • A further reply emphasizes the importance of explicitly defining the positive direction for moments, noting that inconsistency between the FBD and the moment equation can lead to confusion.
  • One participant points out that the problem statement explicitly defines anticlockwise as positive, which raises questions about the correctness of the equations presented in the solution.
  • Another participant acknowledges that while the sign of the force may not significantly affect member classification, it is crucial for accurate calculations.
  • A later reply agrees that there is an inconsistency in the definitions used in the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that there is an inconsistency in the definitions of moment directions and that this inconsistency affects the equations used. However, there is no consensus on the correct interpretation of the moment direction or the implications for the solution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the clarity of definitions and assumptions regarding moment directions and force orientations in the problem, which may lead to different interpretations and solutions.

dlacombe13
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Homework Statement


I am following the first problem on this online pdf:
http://www.ce.udel.edu/courses/CIEG212/Homework_1_2007.pdf

Homework Equations


Equilibrium equations for forces and moments.

The Attempt at a Solution


I know how to solve the problem, that part is straight forward. However I can't see how the moment at C due to the load P is going in the clockwise direction as implied by the moment equation. In my mind, it should compliment the counter-clockwise direction due to the horizontal force of the member BD. Is my assumption wrong? If so, why?
 
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The direction of the force in the member BD should be reversed and the direction force at the point B is in clockwise
 
malemdk said:
The direction of the force in the member BD should be reversed and the direction force at the point B is in clockwise

That's true but...

The real source of the problem is that you didn't explicitly define clockwise or anti clockwise moments to be positive.

In your FBD you have defined the direction of FBD so that positive is up and to the right. There is nothing wrong with that. After all you don't always know the direction of unknown forces. However it means your FBD and your sum of moments equation are inconsistent with each other.

Lets treat your FDB as correct and fix your sum of moments equation so that it is consistent...

First I will arbitrarily define anticlockwise as positive. Then the sum should be..
+(0.450)(240FBD/510) + (+0.135P) = 0

If I were to define clockwise as positive. Then the sum should be..
-(0.450)(240FBD/510) + (-0.135P) = 0

In both cases if you were to solve for FBD you would find it's negative.

Some will say it should be obvious that BD is in compression (so FBD acts downwards and to the left) but the point is if you do things right it doesn't matter if you define FBD so that positive is up and to the right or down and to the left. If you are explicit with your definitions and consistent then it all drops out in the wash.
 
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Okay so I will first say this is not my work, I am just studying the problem. They do explicitly define that anticlockwise is positive (it is to the left of the moment equation). I as well defined anticlockwise as positive. Then by judgement, I got the equation that CWatters got:

+(0.450)(240FBD/510) + (+0.135P) = 0

Which is why I am here. Since they do define anticlockwise on this solution, and have:

+(0.450)(240FBD/510) + (-0.135P) = 0

As well as BD being up and to the right, are they incorrect?
 
Although the sign of the force doesn't matter much while deciding the cross section of a member it does play big role.
 
OK sorry I didn't spot that symbol. Yes they are inconsistent.
 

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