How to quickly survey an exoplanet before colonization?

[Durakken]

Why would you not want 3d printers... they are currently at a stage they can print circiut boards and print themselves and can build to specification which means no loss of resources and lower the amount of time to getting those more automated aspects of infrastructure going.

The idea that you couldn't produce a cell phone almost immediately is just wrong. The only limitation there is getting the materials which is solved by bringing enough raw materials and an industrial 3d printer which can do most of that labor. Once that is achieved it is just a matter of waiting really to find those veins and with a good geologist it wouldn't be that hard as there are signs for most of the veins you'd be looking for. Even assuming you're only going to build the phone out of found raw materials I'd bet you could do it in less than 3 decades.

 

[Czcibor]

I have no idea what such a paper would mean by "productive" as I hardly think of churning out millions of built in obsolete widgits being built as "productive" nor do I see how one could fairly make that assessment that it is a population number given that it's where all the factories with heavy machines to produce those widgits are... on the other hand compare that to the relatively low population of farmer who do a productive thing such as feed the world many times over, using that as a metric low population wins out.

But if we look at how humans spread and all like that we generally like to be in groups of 250 to 500 max and divide along those lines So if you're looking for the most productive one might plan some sort of built in system of division that feeds into a center used for trade between these groups while trade within the groups are done in their own area.

I mean studies like this:
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2013/why-innovation-thrives-in-cities-0604

Saying that when you double population, then productivity goes up by 130%, so you get net +15%

Where rivers that you'd be looking for form is where mountains form. Those mountains are the type that form when they're pushed up due to tectonic activity. In other words. If you are in a river valley like the ones you're looking for you're most likely not going to near a fault line as the fault line is on the other side of the mountains. Likewise if you're in a river valley you have mountains around and mountains are where ore has been pushed to the surface. River Valleys are also often protected from sea level rise for the most part and because mountains are protected from most harsh weather.

Brilliant, thanks, I haven't thought about it.

According to map seems to work:
http://i59.tinypic.com/1zdvkf9.jpg

 

[mfb]

Presumably, for short series, but I think they are quite slow.

You won't need many pipes with 54° bending angle, but if your system needs one, you don't want to set up a factory line to make thousands of them.

(I remember reading a study concerning that in case of running out of copper, it would be necessary to rely on aluminium cables, which just wouldn't be so good. I think in similar line, of making some cheap substitutes)

There are good cheap substitutions for many things, but the low-tech substitutions for computers are abacus and slide-rule. Or cathode-rays but those are expensive. You'll need a 19th- or better 20th-century chemical industry running to make new transistors.

@Durakken: 3D printers cannot print chips (or even single transistors). You can assume some high-tech product that can do it in the future, but then you can assume nano-machines can produce anything you like.

 

[Czcibor]

One thing to consider about your idea of an authoritarian society, is that part of the population may well escape from that harsh rule and try their luck elsewhere, in another valley - i m not sure you d really have the resources to run the kind of police force and surveillance system you d need to prevent that.

How would you behave in such case?
-gov is not corrupted, quite competent, has rather reasonable investment plan, and is obsessed about survival of civilization;
-Technically speaking you volunteered and pledged loyalty to it (which of course may not be so relevant, if those people make you really unhappy, then of course you may claim that you did it under effectively compulsion...); (they had millions of potential volunteers)
-there are some traces of democracy and self governance on local level, there are some vague promises of semi free election on central level in long run, when the situation would cool down;
-if they succeed without you then in long run they have industrial goods, if you try to buy them, then they would in really unfriendly way ask for back taxes.

Your move?

 

[Durakken]

I mean studies like this:
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2013/why-innovation-thrives-in-cities-0604

Saying that when you double population, then productivity goes up by 130%, so you get net +15%

It's important to say economic productivity there...
And that's obvious, especially with theot currency. You don't really need to do research on that.
Money is just a substitute for iou item in the future that can be paid by anyone taking part in this group. More people interacting with each will automatically have more people trusting in that money and demanding that money and using that money resulting in the money's value increasing and likewise the "standards of living" are often higher per person averaged out in more populated areas thus you can argue that there is higher "productivity" but that isn't really the case in most situation... But that's not what this is about so I'll leave that aside... and not get into how much i think economics as studied today is largely nonsense.

Instead I just want to point out that economic productivity is not the same as actually being productive and being a stable thriving civilization that is able to maintain or sustain random groups of people. It should be noted that some of the most productive members of our species were the poorest and would be considered low producing according to an economic modle of productivity.

This being the case it is smarter to build around ideas that worked in the past to create stable colonies. Namely town halls and town squares that reinforced community but let the community dividing into any number of sub-communities around it. Provide a place to go to like a church, not necessarily one, schools are also good for this, but something like that to give the community some sense of belonging to that community and guidance. Once that is done it is more likely people will thrive than and be productive in all senses of the words rather than trying to push on them having to deal with a lot of people all at once that they don't neccessarily like, but have to work with. In fact the more you do that the more likely the colony will splinter and destroy itself or try to attack the authorities.

 

[Durakken]

@Durakken: 3D printers cannot print chips (or even single transistors). You can assume some high-tech product that can do it in the future, but then you can assume nano-machines can produce anything you like.

but I'm sure they can print or build all the fabrication tools necessary to make computer chips, though I forget what all is needed, about the biggest problem would be getting the chemicals needed for it for current processors. Though a few years down the line there is the possiblity of, what is called, graphene? that could be much simpler and more abundant.

 

[Czcibor]

It's important to say economic productivity there...
And that's obvious, especially with theot currency. You don't really need to do research on that.
Money is just a substitute for iou item in the future that can be paid by anyone taking part in this group. More people interacting with each will automatically have more people trusting in that money and demanding that money and using that money resulting in the money's value increasing and likewise the "standards of living" are often higher per person averaged out in more populated areas thus you can argue that there is higher "productivity" but that isn't really the case in most situation...

Honestly that are just:
-economics of scale (ex. in my country gov spends for primary education of a kid in village 2-3 times, then a kid in a city)
-flexibility of employment (you need 100 properly educated workers for next week for a construction, good luck in finding that in a village of 80 people ;) )
-better spread of new creative ideas, more competition and less monopolies that abuse power

But that's not what this is about so I'll leave that aside... and not get into how much i think economics as studied today is largely nonsense.

Be more merciful for my feelings, I'm an economist ;)

Instead I just want to point out that economic productivity is not the same as actually being productive and being a stable thriving civilization that is able to maintain or sustain random groups of people. It should be noted that some of the most productive members of our species were the poorest and would be considered low producing according to an economic modle of productivity.

This being the case it is smarter to build around ideas that worked in the past to create stable colonies. Namely town halls and town squares that reinforced community but let the community dividing into any number of sub-communities around it. Provide a place to go to like a church, not necessarily one, schools are also good for this, but something like that to give the community some sense of belonging to that community and guidance. Once that is done it is more likely people will thrive than and be productive in all senses of the words rather than trying to push on them having to deal with a lot of people all at once that they don't neccessarily like, but have to work with. In fact the more you do that the more likely the colony will splinter and destroy itself or try to attack the authorities.

That what you mentioned is a nice goal for a stable, affluent society. Let's sacrifice 10 percentage points of GDP and have more fulfilment in life. Just that's not a case when survival matters.

 

[Durakken]

Honestly that are just:
-economics of scale (ex. in my country gov spends for primary education of a kid in village 2-3 times, then a kid in a city)
-flexibility of employment (you need 100 properly educated workers for next week for a construction, good luck in finding that in a village of 80 people ;) )
-better spread of new creative ideas, more competition and less monopolies that abuse power

That's the thing... you don't need educated people to do this. Educated people are the ones who will get you killed because more often than not they aren't used to the type of environment nor the willingness to say "that's just how it is" as much as educated people are. You need a large amount of loyal, street smart, but rather dumb people with a small number of smart people who can plan at the top that are trusted by those uneducated people.

Be more merciful for my feelings, I'm an economist ;)

Sorry, it's true. My disdain is more for the prattling pseudo-intellectuals than the subject itself... It's the latter that happen to get to say what is "economics" so the subject suffers, much like the subject of morality and other such things that are really interesting subjects that are misunderstood due to pseudo-intellects being listened to while showing nothing gained by it or harming the people who listen...

Though I could be wrong. I've never looked to deeply into theories and all that because they're not very interesting and can be seen to be wrong headed before delving very deep into them. It could also be my encounters with Anarcho-Capitalists v.v

That what you mentioned is a nice goal for a stable, affluent society. Let's sacrifice 10 percentage points of GDP and have more fulfilment in life. Just that's not a case when survival matters.

Nope. Town Halls and Churches are the very first buildings that colonies start building, because it does work on the psychology of humans which keeps the morale up which ups the productivity. They serve very useful functions such as trade centers, community intermingling, information dissemination, fortifications, etc... Whatever you lose in base resources to build these structures you gain in overall efficiency.

Also consider that cities as we know them don't build up instantly...Let's say you have a string 25km of land represented each by 1 letter of the alphabet:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY

You build the "city" at "M". with say 4 quadrants each with a max 500 people.
When the colonists get 500 people they're going to split into a group that stay and group that leaves.
This first group with start move out to get growing land so they'll move to "L" and "N" with farms

ABCDEFGHIJK=^=OPQRSTUVWXY

^ = main colony
= = farm
+ = village

But some will want to move further away and go to "A" and "Y" and establish villages

+BCDEFGHIJK=^=OPQRSTUVWX+

Then as trade and more groups divide and development you'll get this...

+=CDEF+HIJK=^=OPQR+TUVW=+

And then...

++CDE=+=IJK+^+OPQ=+=UVW++

Then...

++C+E=+=I+=^^^=+Q=+=U+W++

It's a pretty simple pattern where it is the consolidation of stable smaller groups over time with trade through a stable center that makes a colony grow and be extremyl successful. Although 25km is a bit small to apply this model to accurately. As it goes more along the lines of pushing out farmers into further out farming areas and building walls around the previous farming areas incorporating them into the city proper. The other "villages" are usually further out, about 30km and are eventually absorbed into the largest city in the area.

 

[wabbit]

How would you behave in such case?
-gov is not corrupted, quite competent, has rather reasonable investment plan, and is obsessed about survival of civilization;
-Technically speaking you volunteered and pledged loyalty to it (which of course may not be so relevant, if those people make you really unhappy, then of course you may claim that you did it under effectively compulsion...); (they had millions of potential volunteers)
-there are some traces of democracy and self governance on local level, there are some vague promises of semi free election on central level in long run, when the situation would cool down;
-if they succeed without you then in long run they have industrial goods, if you try to buy them, then they would in really unfriendly way ask for back taxes.

Your move?

Depends on how hostile the environnement is really, and how many are discontented vs buy the sweet promises of democracy tomorrow. In the nicer case with edible flora and temperate climate, I d skip bail and go found a free community based on low tech farming, trade with people in the city (there will be some willing to do business with renegades) and build from there towards higher tech etc. At the other extreme, if leaving the colony is deadly, i might try to overthrow the government. But I ll probably end in one of your prisons anyway : )

 

[Czcibor]

That's the thing... you don't need educated people to do this. Educated people are the ones who will get you killed because more often than not they aren't used to the type of environment nor the willingness to say "that's just how it is" as much as educated people are. You need a large amount of loyal, street smart, but rather dumb people with a small number of smart people who can plan at the top that are trusted by those uneducated people.

You need:
-people who adapt to new environment and learn fast
-creative ideas (how to build that damn mobile phone out of sticks :D ?)
-people who can be retrained easily
-who understand why there is going to be a hardship at start, but would work for some far away goal

I'd pick up intelligent ones, that agree with the whole project.

Sorry, it's true. My disdain is more for the prattling pseudo-intellectuals than the subject itself... It's the latter that happen to get to say what is "economics" so the subject suffers, much like the subject of morality and other such things that are really interesting subjects that are misunderstood due to pseudo-intellects being listened to while showing nothing gained by it or harming the people who listen...

Though I could be wrong. I've never looked to deeply into theories and all that because they're not very interesting and can be seen to be wrong headed before delving very deep into them. It could also be my encounters with Anarcho-Capitalists v.v

Anarcho-capitalist? Are you really certain they are in any way related to economics? I always considered them as a religious movement...

Technical info: in academic setting Austrian School (Anarcho-Capitalists official source of inspiration) is nowadays considered as a heterodox school, which is very polite way of saying that they are not being treated too seriously by anyone within the scientific mainstream.

Nope. Town Halls and Churches are the very first buildings that colonies start building, because it does work on the psychology of humans which keeps the morale up which ups the productivity. They serve very useful functions such as trade centers, community intermingling, information dissemination, fortifications, etc... Whatever you lose in base resources to build these structures you gain in overall efficiency.

I don't think that people in my generation would appreciate church so much, on last meeting in my university a guy came in T-shirt with Spaghetti Monster and no-one really cared.

Also consider that cities as we know them don't build up instantly...Let's say you have a string 25km of land represented each by 1 letter of the alphabet:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXY

You build the "city" at "M". with say 4 quadrants each with a max 500 people.
When the colonists get 500 people they're going to split into a group that stay and group that leaves.
This first group with start move out to get growing land so they'll move to "L" and "N" with farms

ABCDEFGHIJK=^=OPQRSTUVWXY

^ = main colony
= = farm
+ = village

But some will want to move further away and go to "A" and "Y" and establish villages

+BCDEFGHIJK=^=OPQRSTUVWX+

Then as trade and more groups divide and development you'll get this...

+=CDEF+HIJK=^=OPQR+TUVW=+

And then...

++CDE=+=IJK+^+OPQ=+=UVW++

Then...

++C+E=+=I+=^^^=+Q=+=U+W++

It's a pretty simple pattern where it is the consolidation of stable smaller groups over time with trade through a stable center that makes a colony grow and be extremyl successful. Although 25km is a bit small to apply this model to accurately. As it goes more along the lines of pushing out farmers into further out farming areas and building walls around the previous farming areas incorporating them into the city proper. The other "villages" are usually further out, about 30km and are eventually absorbed into the largest city in the area.

I toyed with ideas like such. The drawback was that at the end I end up with city center full of tiny huts. Or I have to demolish a fully good cottages to build there apartments. Additionally in my story in long run (after over 30 years) there is 4 child policy, which boost the population somewhat.

Idea for the capitol:
You are not allowed in build in the zone for the city center at start.
You build villages in the place that would be suburbs.
You place a whole zone for industry, based on wind direction
You build a city in shape of a triangle - one side touches industrial district
First tiny huts, later, when tech improves, taller and taller buildings (your city center effectively moves)
You leave a place for rail / metro

 

[Czcibor]

Depends on how hostile the environnement is really, and how many are discontented vs buy the sweet promises of democracy tomorrow. In the nicer case with edible flora and temperate climate, I d skip bail and go found a free community based on low tech farming, trade with people in the city (there will be some willing to do business with renegades) and build from there towards higher tech etc. At the other extreme, if leaving the colony is deadly, i might try to overthrow the government. But I ll probably end in one of your prisons anyway : )

Escaping would be possible and damn easy. But all duties for you would be according to contract. In the moment of departure there would be rumours that presumably there might be more chances to teleport. (they are the second group that organizes mass teleportation) Do you think that in such situation many people would be willing to join first, and later defect? Not mentioning that people who would do their work, would presumably look at you as a free rider.

But thanks, anyway, it gives me an idea here.

 

[wabbit]

Do you think that in such situation many people would be willing to join first, and later defect?.

That's the sad thing with tyranny - it breeds ingratitude :)

 

[Czcibor]

That's the sad thing with tyranny - it breeds ingratitude :)

If you were given gov cards - how would you weed out such ungrateful people?

Or instead of keeping a whip on you, let you elect a gov, and in a few months you would petition the gov to punish any free rider severely? (shall they sacrifice those few crucial months to get roughly the same result? ;) )

 

[Durakken]

You need:
-people who adapt to new environment and learn fast
-creative ideas (how to build that damn mobile phone out of sticks :D ?)
-people who can be retrained easily
-who understand why there is going to be a hardship at start, but would work for some far away goal

I'd pick up intelligent ones, that agree with the whole project.

"intelligent" yes. "educated" no.
Also you want a limited amount of a certain type of intelligent type because they aren't good to have around... Basically don't take people like me along unless I'm in the top or I'm going to cause trouble, not because I'm trying to cause trouble, but because I see the top's flaws and have no problem pointing it out. I may be intelligent, but you don't want people like me in those positions as that will wreck the society or waste space on the teleport. If you keep people like me to the top we're very useful otherwise we're a detriment.

Anarcho-capitalist? Are you really certain they are in any way related to economics? I always considered them as a religious movement...

Technical info: in academic setting Austrian School (Anarcho-Capitalists official source of inspiration) is nowadays considered as a heterodox school, which is very polite way of saying that they are not being treated too seriously by anyone within the scientific mainstream.

Other schools are only slightly less nuttier to me. I just come across AnCaps more often.

I don't think that people in my generation would appreciate church so much, on last meeting in my university a guy came in T-shirt with Spaghetti Monster and no-one really cared.

That's not necessarily true, but I'm not arguing necessarily for a church, rather a similar place. You can have a conference hall where every week some expert gives a lecture on some topic that is useful information for people to know and understand. It's the communal aspect that is important, not the dogma. Although that is a dangerous game if done incorrectly.

I toyed with ideas like such. The drawback was that at the end I end up with city center full of tiny huts. Or I have to demolish a fully good cottages to build there apartments. Additionally in my story in long run (after over 30 years) there is 4 child policy, which boost the population somewhat.

Idea for the capitol:
You are not allowed in build in the zone for the city center at start.
You build villages in the place that would be suburbs.
You place a whole zone for industry, based on wind direction
You build a city in shape of a triangle - one side touches industrial district
First tiny huts, later, when tech improves, taller and taller buildings (your city center effectively moves)
You leave a place for rail / metro

If you bring those gene. mod trees and they work you somewhat solve the problem by cutting down the trees when you need to expand and then you get to use that as a resource too.

As far as the plan you have is that it ignores that you're trying to create an industrial society without an idustry or any way to really establish industry. This is especially true if you don't take 3d printers and such because people would return to the way they ran their businesses before which is that they'd work out of their house which means "industry" and "population" centers are 1 and the same. On the other hand if you have the 3D printers the goal there is more for processing raw materials into useable 3D printing material...which would avoid industry.

Also, pretty sure trianglular cities aren't easy to defend, but I'm not sure. I've never seen one.

 

[Czcibor]

"intelligent" yes. "educated" no.
Also you want a limited amount of a certain type of intelligent type because they aren't good to have around... Basically don't take people like me along unless I'm in the top or I'm going to cause trouble, not because I'm trying to cause trouble, but because I see the top's flaws and have no problem pointing it out. I may be intelligent, but you don't want people like me in those positions as that will wreck the society or waste space on the teleport. If you keep people like me to the top we're very useful otherwise we're a detriment.

So you would work, pay your taxes and after work point out some shortcomings? Without seriously trying to undermine system? No one would mind, at least officially it would be even encouraged.

Other schools are only slightly less nuttier to me. I just come across AnCaps more often.

Yes, it fashionable in net.

That's not necessarily true, but I'm not arguing necessarily for a church, rather a similar place. You can have a conference hall where every week some expert gives a lecture on some topic that is useful information for people to know and understand. It's the communal aspect that is important, not the dogma. Although that is a dangerous game if done incorrectly.

Seems reasonable.

If you bring those gene. mod trees and they work you somewhat solve the problem by cutting down the trees when you need to expand and then you get to use that as a resource too.

As far as the plan you have is that it ignores that you're trying to create an industrial society without an idustry or any way to really establish industry. This is especially true if you don't take 3d printers and such because people would return to the way they ran their businesses before which is that they'd work out of their house which means "industry" and "population" centers are 1 and the same. On the other hand if you have the 3D printers the goal there is more for processing raw materials into useable 3D printing material...which would avoid industry.

You just use a bit too futuristic tech for the setting.

Also, pretty sure trianglular cities aren't easy to defend, but I'm not sure. I've never seen one.

Defend against whom?

 

[wabbit]

Other schools are only slightly less nuttier to me. I just come across AnCaps more often

There may well be some nutty anarcho-capitalists but there is nothing nutty about anarcho-capitalism as such. Economically it is grounded in Austrian Economics which is a very respectable tradition of great rigor, though it is dismissed by some of its opponents - but that's politics, not economics.

 

[Durakken]

So you would work, pay your taxes and after work point out some shortcomings? Without seriously trying to undermine system? No one would mind, at least officially it would be even encouraged.

So says everyone till they actually get all the flaws in the way they do things pointed out... Trust me, I've experience in the matter ^.^

Seems reasonable.

There must be something wrong with me or you then. :P It's always a clear sign that when I sound reasonable to someone something has gone strangely amiss :D

You just use a bit too futuristic tech for the setting.

I don't know the setting, but the stuff I'm talking about is between a decade and 2 score away (yay finally got to use score! SCORE!), but if that how your universes is whatever works. I had to artificially mandate no immortality, brain uploads, etc in my universe to even start to think of stories i could tell.

Defend against whom?

Warm planets tend to have Mega Fauna... Mega Fauna tends to be dangerous.
Also other colonies/colonists and separatists. Never trust people to do what you want them to do even if they want to do it and it is the best thing they could ever do and they will become filthy rich doing it... Just saying.

 

[Czcibor]

3d printer:

http://www.renishaw.com/en/am250-laser-melting-metal-3d-printing-machine--15253

Build rate* 5 cm³ - 20 cm³ per hour
Weight 1225 kg gross, 1100 kg net

Let's assume 10 cm3 of steel per hour. Let's assume that steel weights 7.9 g/cm3

79g/h

1 year and 7 months to produce as much steel product as it weights. Not bad, but it's far from an overkill.

 

[Czcibor]

I don't know the setting, but the stuff I'm talking about is between a decade and 2 score away (yay finally got to use score! SCORE!), but if that how your universes is whatever works. I had to artificially mandate no immortality, brain uploads, etc in my universe to even start to think of stories i could tell.

That's why I stick with contemporary tech and psionics. It's less weird ;)

Warm planets tend to have Mega Fauna... Mega Fauna tends to be dangerous.

Megafauna that strays towards a city is called BBQ. (it can be hunted using a spear thrower, a rifle is enough)

Also other colonies/colonists and separatists. Never trust people to do what you want them to do even if they want to do it and it is the best thing they could ever do and they will become filthy rich doing it... Just saying.

A few bandits yes, but no outright rebellion.

 

[Czcibor]

There may well be some nutty anarcho-capitalists but there is nothing nutty about anarcho-capitalism as such. Economically it is grounded in Austrian Economics which is a very respectable tradition of great rigor, though it is dismissed by some of its opponents - but that's politics, not economics.

For allegedly rigorous school they have a surprising tradition of avoid econometric models... Yes, as if that what they proclaim can be put mostly into anecdotes, and not put in any testable mathematical model.

EDIT: Am I derailing my own topic? ;)

 

[Durakken]

Megafauna that strays towards a city is called BBQ. (it can be hunted using a spear thrower, a rifle is enough)
A few bandits yes, but no outright rebellion.

That's not something that I would bet on personally. Nature is nutty I would not bet on ther being 0 possibility of a some sort of Dinosaur with armor equivalent of bulletproof armor. The hides of these things would likely be pretty thick and making spears and bullets takes time and energy to essentially toss them away. And if they're not good eating then you are also out that amount of food that you could have gotten with those resources and you also have to figure a way to get rid of the carcas quickly either way because that attracts attention. And when you get there with no wall or defense perimeter that means that those creatures can come in wreck the place and take stuff too and that's going to happen a lot until you get a solid defense up.

 

[Czcibor]

That's not something that I would bet on personally. Nature is nutty I would not bet on ther being 0 possibility of a some sort of Dinosaur with armor equivalent of bulletproof armor. The hides of these things would likely be pretty thick and making spears and bullets takes time and energy to essentially toss them away. And if they're not good eating then you are also out that amount of food that you could have gotten with those resources and you also have to figure a way to get rid of the carcas quickly either way because that attracts attention. And when you get there with no wall or defense perimeter that means that those creatures can come in wreck the place and take stuff too and that's going to happen a lot until you get a solid defense up.

Our common hunter-gatherer ancestors that caused quaternary extinction event would be ashamed of you. :D

Honestly, I'd rather expect overhunting near main population centres.

 

[Durakken]

Our common hunter-gatherer ancestors that caused quaternary extinction event would be ashamed of you. :D

Honestly, I'd rather expect overhunting near main population centres.

Mammalian Mega Fauna are weak compared to things in the Dino branch of evolution up until you compare living birds to Mammalian Mega Fauna.

I would not bet humans with so weak an arsenol against most other forms of Mega Fauna. Terror Birds I'd put you at an even match and that is the weakest competitor of what we know of non-mammalian mega fauna. But I'd not want to go into combat with that because they're fast moving, scary, and can kill quickly... and they possibly hunted in groups. So consider you're colony demoralized, blood and guts all over the place, a few people with friendly fire wounds, you expending a couple hundred rounds to get these things dead and now you have 3 giant scary carcasses lying in the middle of your camp that isn't really useful because it's full of holes and now because you have them just sitting there you have to take volunteers to get them out of there before something smells them and comes to eat them which means you have to sends 10+ of your forces with arms out to drag these out while those who remain need to get to work on washing the blood of their family and friends... as well as burning or burying or something with the bodies before, again, scavengers, come eat them. And if you pick the wrong method well now you got more threat either from the smells of burning flesh or the animals that will come to dig the bodies out and eat them anyways which again brings danger to your group.

That's a scenario if you're closer to what you'd expect from a world closer to our level of evolution, but you said a warmer planet which implies one closer to the Dino eras which are far worse. Also, if you choose one closer to our level, that doesn't preclude danger as it possible that there is protohumanoid species around that would be as dangerous if not more dangerous than that.

 

[mfb]

1 year and 7 months to produce as much steel product as it weights. Not bad, but it's far from an overkill.

It does not produce steel at all, it just changes its shape. And most of its part are plastics (or can be replaced with that) - plastic printers are faster. Heavy steel parts, if necessary, can be cast.
The laser and electronics cannot be printed.

 

[snorkack]

I've seen generally papers showing, that bigger cities tend to be more productive (yes, many million metropolises especially). Why do you think I shall spread those people in towns of 100k each?

You should. For sheer safety of redundancy.
Take Australian southeast coast. 1680 km Cairns to Brisbane. 988 km Brisbane to Sydney. 962 km Sydney-Melbourne (cutting inland rather than following the coast). 783 km Melbourne-Adelaide.

Importantly, they span different climates. Adelaide is mediterranean, dry summer wet winter climate. Melbourne and Sydney have year-round precipitation. Queensland is wet summer tropical.

Spreading your population across different climates would give you complementary plant produce. Spreading your population in several centres an appreciable distance from each other would diminish the chances of all or most of them being screwed simultaneously by a common weather pattern. E. g. a wet summer which causes simultaneous crop failures in Brisbane and Sydney might not afflict Adelaide that has dry summer as usual and relies on winter rain that was as usual. Note that if these population centres are connected by reasonably cheap water transportation, like ports and seacoast, then after crop failure becomes predictable, the food can be transported over several months. This way, you can avoid having already weak and famished people having to carry loads of food for several days to reach their mates and families.

 

[DaveC426913]

genetically modified seeds that are programmed to grow into housing.

No such things exist

Right. They don't now, but the fundamental tech does exist and it is likely that they'll have something like this within the next 50 to 100 years and as such falls into any interstellar colonization scenario for me

This is a pretty dramatic departure from the "more or less contemporary technology" scenario you originally laid out.

I don't know what "fundamental tech exists" to program seeds to grow into houses, but with that as a technology precedent in your world, it opens up a whole bunch of 'we don't have it yet but we will by then' possibilities.

I'd start with:
- von Neumann devices for basic tasks such as desalinating water, clearing fields, planting crops, irrigating and tending to them.
- weather-proof domes
The list is endless.

 

[Czcibor]

You should. For sheer safety of redundancy.
Take Australian southeast coast. 1680 km Cairns to Brisbane. 988 km Brisbane to Sydney. 962 km Sydney-Melbourne (cutting inland rather than following the coast). 783 km Melbourne-Adelaide.

Importantly, they span different climates. Adelaide is mediterranean, dry summer wet winter climate. Melbourne and Sydney have year-round precipitation. Queensland is wet summer tropical.

Spreading your population across different climates would give you complementary plant produce. Spreading your population in several centres an appreciable distance from each other would diminish the chances of all or most of them being screwed simultaneously by a common weather pattern. E. g. a wet summer which causes simultaneous crop failures in Brisbane and Sydney might not afflict Adelaide that has dry summer as usual and relies on winter rain that was as usual. Note that if these population centres are connected by reasonably cheap water transportation, like ports and seacoast, then after crop failure becomes predictable, the food can be transported over several months. This way, you can avoid having already weak and famished people having to carry loads of food for several days to reach their mates and families.

With spreading the farmland - I fully agree, good point. But after achieving a working transport routes and freeing over 90% of from being needed in agriculture, then there would be not much point in spreading population. (I think about spreading population at start and later slowly concentrating it)

 

[Czcibor]

I have 2 more questions:

1) crop rotation - in the past it used to be a reasonable idea to use some land for a few years and later leave it exploited. Would it be reasonable policy in such setting or using fertilizer would be more practical?

2) Wabbit pointed out that he would not be cooperative while dealing with a quite efficient authoritarian gov. How to deal with such problem?
2a) Selection process - (take more East Asians and less Americans) or test attitude of potential colonizers through some kind of psychological test?
2b) Grant moderate concessions to gain legitimacy in eyes of people who demand democracy?
3c) Make some big size conspiracy?

 

[mfb]

1) crop rotation - in the past it used to be a reasonable idea to use some land for a few years and later leave it exploited. Would it be reasonable policy in such setting or using fertilizer would be more practical?

Even with an exact copy of Earth, the answer would be "it depends". And you are talking about a completely different planet!

Selection process - (take more East Asians and less Americans)

Take fewer stereotypes?

 

[snorkack]

I have 2 more questions:

1) crop rotation - in the past it used to be a reasonable idea to use some land for a few years and later leave it exploited. Would it be reasonable policy in such setting or using fertilizer would be more practical?

You know the mineral fertilizer requirements of the plants you have brought along. It would take some years to find out what the dangerous native weeds and pests are, and then figure out which farming practices and pesticides are effective and selective against these. Crop rotation makes sense.

 

[Czcibor]

Take fewer stereotypes?

Why? Do you think in such scenario would anyone care about PC?

Because Wabbit pointed one serious, hard to measure directly feature - and one of possible proxy indicators is culture in which one was brought up and accepted its values.

You know the mineral fertilizer requirements of the plants you have brought along. It would take some years to find out what the dangerous native weeds and pests are, and then figure out which farming practices and pesticides are effective and selective against these. Crop rotation makes sense.

Good point, thanks.

 

[Durakken]

Why? Do you think in such scenario would anyone care about PC?

We don't really know the scenario. What you have revealed is that humanity has within the next 5 or so years (estimated via your statements) finds a habitable world and the ability to teleport people/things however many light years it takes to get there with high degrees of accuracy... and for some reason is making plans to send between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people to this planet on a 1 way trip.

It also seems that you want to extract taxes from said group by some government, seemingly the Earth side one, which implies there is some 2 way communication and there is some sort of authoritarian government in place that enforces rules and who gets sent to this new planet with enough control to keep people in line and following their authority.

Depending on the actual scenario and how the government maintains order on Earth I can see reasons to go either way and it introduces a classic problem of "Who gets sent/gets to go" and how do we want to look to the people, which is something even a dictator must think about. But unless we know more we can't answer why someone would care about being "PC" or rather, more correctly stated, why anyone would care about not falling into the trap of believing stereotypes to be an accurate representation of people and thereby making the wrong selection for their purposes.

 

[Czcibor]

We don't really know the scenario. What you have revealed is that humanity has within the next 5 or so years (estimated via your statements) finds a habitable world and the ability to teleport people/things however many light years it takes to get there with high degrees of accuracy... and for some reason is making plans to send between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people to this planet on a 1 way trip.

It also seems that you want to extract taxes from said group by some government, seemingly the Earth side one, which implies there is some 2 way communication and there is some sort of authoritarian government in place that enforces rules and who gets sent to this new planet with enough control to keep people in line and following their authority.

Depending on the actual scenario and how the government maintains order on Earth I can see reasons to go either way and it introduces a classic problem of "Who gets sent/gets to go" and how do we want to look to the people, which is something even a dictator must think about. But unless we know more we can't answer why someone would care about being "PC" or rather, more correctly stated, why anyone would care about not falling into the trap of believing stereotypes to be an accurate representation of people and thereby making the wrong selection for their purposes.

Situation the following - a few psions that actually would be able to open teleport in incoming window of opportunity makes a deal with a group of business people. The group of business people brings starting money and organizational skill.

The group of business people would like to keep power for a while. It's a mixture of lust for power, feeling of responsibility, belief in their own outstanding skills (they are not bad, but believe being brilliant ;) ) and inertia. Additionally any democratic gov would under such condition would grant president / prime minister huge emergency powers, thus they not perceive it as doing anything improper.

There is going simply limited number of places. And when the whole project would become public there are going to be millions of possible volunteers. So need some rational selection criteria.
I thought so far that perfect candidate would be very healthy, young, not bringing any contagious or genetic disease, no crime record, educated / intelligent / having some useful skills (let's say a doctor from first world country... or a good at improvising handyman from a third world country).

Presumably candidates to be graded in such categories and picked up according to highest score.

The more tricky questions is whether picking up let's say more Scandinavians would make the country less corrupted in long run. That's something damn hard to measure directly, but there is some human capital to be picked properly.

Stereotypes? What about saying that males below 25 cause more car accidents than any other groups? So having a list of potential drivers and no other data, it would be advisable to select someone not fitting that description. (of course if there is more data - then it's quite possible that actually that within this group there would be plenty of really outstanding drivers)EDIT: Within this selected group there would some small amount picked up as matter of nepotism / bribing high rank politician by taking his kids, but that would be a negligible amount in total.

 

[Durakken]

Stereotypes? What about saying that males below 25 cause more car accidents than any other groups? So having a list of potential drivers and no other data, it would be advisable to select someone not fitting that description. (of course if there is more data - then it's quite possible that actually that within this group there would be plenty of really outstanding drivers)

I'll have more to say once I think about this more, but this specific thing shows what stereotypes can be bad.
The "males below x cause more car accidents" isn't a measure where you can take it like that.
Men drive more therefor are in more car accidents. Likely those who are below 25 drive more too. So it's actually the case that the better/best drivers come from the group you are excluding and so at best you simply excluding the best, but if you follow this course down more you will actually select the worst, least experienced drivers which would end up with you lowering efficiency and such things that you care about, or having to switch someone selected for something else to to driving and the driver becomes dead weight which ends up getting people killed in these types of situations.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Likely those who are below 25 drive more too.

Not true. See http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

 

[Durakken]

Not true. See http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

As Rex Stout wrote, "there are two kinds of facts. The kind you look up and the kind you make up." This one is easy to look up/

Between 16 and some age between 35 and 54 you reach maximum miles driven. and then it falls back down.
I would bet you're going to get an inverse curve to that for the amount of accidents.which you'd expect due to experience and ability.
It's also interesting that the female curve maxes earlier and withless miles.

What you end up with is if you were to overlap these curves you're going to get a number around 25 that you're going to mark off as most likely to get into an accident in. I find it interesting that it's quoted at "25" which makes it harder to associate with amount of driving done which allows for manipulation of data.

But regardless you end up with a number that is, like I said, removing the optimal person to select, rather than the sub-optimal/worst.

 

[Durakken]

Situation the following - a few psions that actually would be able to open teleport in incoming window of opportunity makes a deal with a group of business people. The group of business people brings starting money and organizational skill.

The group of business people would like to keep power for a while. It's a mixture of lust for power, feeling of responsibility, belief in their own outstanding skills (they are not bad, but believe being brilliant ;) ) and inertia. Additionally any democratic gov would under such condition would grant president / prime minister huge emergency powers, thus they not perceive it as doing anything improper.

There is going simply limited number of places. And when the whole project would become public there are going to be millions of possible volunteers.

Contracting all those sent will help solve the problem, especially if you handle it more like a Corporate Town. In fact you should look those up if you haven't. That might give you some insight.

So need some rational selection criteria.
I thought so far that perfect candidate would be very healthy, young, not bringing any contagious or genetic disease, no crime record, educated / intelligent / having some useful skills (let's say a doctor from first world country... or a good at improvising handyman from a third world country).

I would suggest sending a construction team + defense team through that is not a permanent fixture to set up a fenced in defended group area with a command center of some sort that likewise has a defense system. Also a medical facility.

Then I'd send in colonists who fit x roles. Here's a breakdown I came up with a while back that had the requirement of havng all colonists coming in a group, 2 parents and a kid with roughly a 500 people unit. However the colonies have multiples of these units.

166 Children
036 Farmers
002 General practitioner (Doctor)
002 Botanist
002 Geologist
002 Astronomer
002 Zoologist
002 Meteorologist
002 Mechanical Engineer
002 Electrical Engineer
002 Civil Engineer
002 Chemical Engineer
002 Mining Engineers
002 Aerospace Engineer
002 Biomedical Engineer
002 Mechanic
002 Software Engineer
002 Cardiologist
002 Anastheseologist
002 Dentists
002 Ob/Gyn
002 Colonologist
002 Pediatrician
002 Podiatrician
002 Oncologist
002 Physician
002 Urologist
002 Vetinarian
004 Trauma surgeons
060 Guard/Soldiers
020 Hunters
020 Construction Worker
010 Teacher
010 Professor
010 Administrator
112 Miscelaneous Workers

As far as where to get them. I'd want from the 1st world, but with lots of 3rd world experience, or other experiences that requires creative thinking with random stuff around.

The more tricky questions is whether picking up let's say more Scandinavians would make the country less corrupted in long run. That's something damn hard to measure directly, but there is some human capital to be picked properly.

The problem here is that it assumes maintaining nationalistic attachments. This is likely not the case for anyone volunteering. Those volunteering are likely people who want to get away from their culture or don't care either way about it which means they are either not the norm of their culture or they're not going to push that culture in particular and so you'll end up with a culture that is mixed after a few generations, not a "corrupt" culture.

EDIT: Within this selected group there would some small amount picked up as matter of nepotism / bribing high rank politician by taking his kids, but that would be a negligible amount in total.

Obviously. There is no problem with that as long as you can keep balance with actual needed things.For example you might remove the requirement of having a kid for 4 or 5 couples in favor of having 4 or 5 nepotistic selections. The only important part is making sure you're not losing something you absolutely need in favor of this stuff. Obviously with greater number your ratios can change to as ratio of 100:1 Trauma Surgeons vs 101:1 Trauma Surgeons isn't a huge issue.

 

[Czcibor]

Contracting all those sent will help solve the problem, especially if you handle it more like a Corporate Town. In fact you should look those up if you haven't. That might give you some insight.

I know that. And I would not use that. ;)

Really, the result would be state capitalism with very limited competition. Which would not be specially effective. Rather just use their power to build strong state, which heavily relies on competition.

I would suggest sending a construction team + defense team through that is not a permanent fixture to set up a fenced in defended group area with a command center of some sort that likewise has a defense system. Also a medical facility.

Then I'd send in colonists who fit x roles. Here's a breakdown I came up with a while back that had the requirement of havng all colonists coming in a group, 2 parents and a kid with roughly a 500 people unit. However the colonies have multiples of these units.

166 Children
036 Farmers
002 General practitioner (Doctor)
002 Botanist
002 Geologist
002 Astronomer
002 Zoologist
002 Meteorologist
002 Mechanical Engineer
002 Electrical Engineer
002 Civil Engineer
002 Chemical Engineer
002 Mining Engineers
002 Aerospace Engineer
002 Biomedical Engineer
002 Mechanic
002 Software Engineer
002 Cardiologist
002 Anastheseologist
002 Dentists
002 Ob/Gyn
002 Colonologist
002 Pediatrician
002 Podiatrician
002 Oncologist
002 Physician
002 Urologist
002 Vetinarian
004 Trauma surgeons
060 Guard/Soldiers
020 Hunters
020 Construction Worker
010 Teacher
010 Professor
010 Administrator
112 Miscelaneous Workers

As far as where to get them. I'd want from the 1st world, but with lots of 3rd world experience, or other experiences that requires creative thinking with random stuff around.

Interesting. Where did you get those numbers? (just curious)

The problem here is that it assumes maintaining nationalistic attachments. This is likely not the case for anyone volunteering. Those volunteering are likely people who want to get away from their culture or don't care either way about it which means they are either not the norm of their culture or they're not going to push that culture in particular and so you'll end up with a culture that is mixed after a few generations, not a "corrupt" culture.

Not necessary. If you (for arguments sake) mix Swedish with Japanese, the result should also not be specially corrupted. (the friction would be about role of women or amount of hierarchy within society)

You'd just get Vikings with katanas ;)

I assume that people would volunteer not because of some great ideas, but because it would look as the best way of survival.

I thought about purposefully mixing up ethnic groups, to speed up creation of single nation.

Obviously. There is no problem with that as long as you can keep balance with actual needed things.For example you might remove the requirement of having a kid for 4 or 5 couples in favor of having 4 or 5 nepotistic selections. The only important part is making sure you're not losing something you absolutely need in favor of this stuff. Obviously with greater number your ratios can change to as ratio of 100:1 Trauma Surgeons vs 101:1 Trauma Surgeons isn't a huge issue.

I thought more about taking adult singles, to be able to utilize more people. And women young enough that after a few years (when food production would be stable enough) would still be fertile.

I also thought about selection process which would lead to overqualified people. Don't knowing what to expect, selecting the best and trying to keep redundancy, there would be a surplus of highly skilled professions. (Yes, it causes dissatisfaction, disappointment with next generation and problems to replace those people when they become old)

 

[Durakken]

Interesting. Where did you get those numbers? (just curious)

I looked up various peoples' opinions on the subject, and differst stats like how many doctors per x number of people is generally wanted, etc and then I thought about it it abit ^.^

Basically you only really need 1 of most of those things with 2 in a category, but you want redundancy.
For doctors I figure you need general practitioners, but it would be really stupid to carry so many for x number of people and not have any specialists so what you do is you shunt those general practitioners to being specialists. They work both as specialist when need and general otherwise and if one dies you got the other as well as their ability to teach someone else.
The same can be said many of the other things. There is overlap in their fields, but all the scientists and engineers I selected are things you want experts in when your'e going on a foreign planet with no infrastructure. You need to build it, get it in the right spot, evaluate and document all the weather and life and determine ahead of time the problems you're going to face that you can't do with even a high definition survey because these things take time and come up randomly and over time.

The next group...
036 Farmers
060 Guard/Soldiers
020 Hunters
020 Construction Worker

These have their primary roles, but at the same time they are the grunts that do whatever is needed. During the winter Farmers can't do anything. When all the buildings are constructed or don't have resource to continue building they can't do anything. If you have enough food to eat why hunt? Soldiers/Guards are trained for that, but if the areas is relatively safe why wouldn't you also use them as labor for the tasks of the sciences and doctors? I need a EMTs...guess who's doing it. fast and strong guys that can follow orders. I need a mailman, give to them while they do defense patrols. So yeah, the listed roles is what they're there to do as primary, but they are also to be used for all the general stuff needed as well if needed.

The last group, other than the kids...
010 Teacher
010 Professor
010 Administrator

Perhaps a bit overkill, but, again, redundancy and also gives options while making sure you get the best results.
The Administrators... mainly you need people who are in designated in charge, you need a small amount, but you also need an amount that you can deligate areas of the operations to that are an authority for that area and have a designated single leader as well. A single designated leader + 9 areas of deligations seems reasonable...
1. Money
2. Medical
3. Law
4. Military
5. Mining
6. Agriculture
7. Construction
8. Education
9. Resource Management

With regards to children. The situation I built around is different that what you are, but the reasoning behind making children a requirement is that you want a colony that growing as well as people that are deidcated to the thing that they're going there to do. If they are still working in the field and have a child they're the type of person you want, likewise the children provide the booster for colony growth. It also gives a longer time period to failure and a motivation factor for the adults. The reason it takes longer to fail is that while you're trying to build a colony the last thing on your mind is probably having kids. This means that by the time you get around to it you're old and unable to handle raising the child as well. Likewise if you don't have a child you might have children more unexpectantly as you fail to take precautions due to having time for such activities is limited. So having the child at the start seems better to me and since those problems are gone and the kids are being raised it means if there is issues the colony has more time due to kids already being around and in a large enough number to fill in those gaps and last through possible problem simply because they are younger.

In the situation you laid out, that doesn't really matter as if they colony fails and everyone dies, or even starts to fail, you can just kick more people to it and solve the problem. In fact, one might argue the ideal would be for the colonies to fail from the business investment point of view because the colonies will have built up the area which makes it easier for the next set of colonists and allows the company to charge/tax more. Or if you really want pop growth you throw more over to the colony whether it is doing good or bad and the colony will grow just from the fact that the dead bodies don't matter.

Not necessary. If you (for arguments sake) mix Swedish with Japanese, the result should also not be specially corrupted. (the friction would be about role of women or amount of hierarchy within society)

I don't think you'd get that as a problem because you are still a frontier town more or less and in that case there are still roles that people will fall into naturally... beyond that I don't want to get too far into that topic ^.^

But I forgot the other thing I was going to mention, there are 2 major reasons one my segregate a little.
1. Langauge Barriers. Even if you make it mandatory all colonists speak x language if its not their native language there may be issues that will get worse when the primary languages aren't the same. One such thing is possible reaction times in military situations.

2. Long standing hatred. I'd be wary of putting Chine and Japanese together or US with Russians. There is just some nationalistic enmity within those cultures against the others that even if they are cool on the surface with each other and as rational people they have no problem no idea what might happen so it might be unwise to mix certain groups together if you can help it.

 

[Czcibor]

With regards to children. The situation I built around is different that what you are, but the reasoning behind making children a requirement is that you want a colony that growing as well as people that are deidcated to the thing that they're going there to do. If they are still working in the field and have a child they're the type of person you want, likewise the children provide the booster for colony growth. It also gives a longer time period to failure and a motivation factor for the adults. The reason it takes longer to fail is that while you're trying to build a colony the last thing on your mind is probably having kids. This means that by the time you get around to it you're old and unable to handle raising the child as well. Likewise if you don't have a child you might have children more unexpectantly as you fail to take precautions due to having time for such activities is limited. So having the child at the start seems better to me and since those problems are gone and the kids are being raised it means if there is issues the colony has more time due to kids already being around and in a large enough number to fill in those gaps and last through possible problem simply because they are younger.

What about as motivating factor, that system does not provide pensions? Nothing personal, just gov has no money for that...

(Later, in constitution it would be stated that gov is not allowed to promise a retirement system that is not 100% financed from start)

In the situation you laid out, that doesn't really matter as if they colony fails and everyone dies, or even starts to fail, you can just kick more people to it and solve the problem. In fact, one might argue the ideal would be for the colonies to fail from the business investment point of view because the colonies will have built up the area which makes it easier for the next set of colonists and allows the company to charge/tax more. Or if you really want pop growth you throw more over to the colony whether it is doing good or bad and the colony will grow just from the fact that the dead bodies don't matter.

Not specially. Humans would be here the limited resources, thus requiring proper care.

But I forgot the other thing I was going to mention, there are 2 major reasons one my segregate a little.
1. Langauge Barriers. Even if you make it mandatory all colonists speak x language if its not their native language there may be issues that will get worse when the primary languages aren't the same. One such thing is possible reaction times in military situations.

2. Long standing hatred. I'd be wary of putting Chine and Japanese together or US with Russians. There is just some nationalistic enmity within those cultures against the others that even if they are cool on the surface with each other and as rational people they have no problem no idea what might happen so it might be unwise to mix certain groups together if you can help it.

After a year they are in situation to believe that their home country exist anymore. But avoiding such conflict at the whole start would be reasonable.

Anyway, I think that Russians live happily in Londongrad, so not sure to what extend this problem may be overestimated.

 

[Durakken]

What about as motivating factor, that system does not provide pensions? Nothing personal, just gov has no money for that...

(Later, in constitution it would be stated that gov is not allowed to promise a retirement system that is not 100% financed from start)

That's modern thinking.
In a non-modern society kids are your pension. You raise them to take care of you in your old age.

Not specially. Humans would be here the limited resources, thus requiring proper care.

In the situation you laid out humans would not be limited because new humans could be teleported in at any time. If you want to make it out that they can't be then you have to explain adherence to a government system and taxation that no longer exists. The point of these colonies are to make money and in general do it through taxing/resources being sent back. If they get cut off then residents would expect not to be sending resources back and they would expect not to be taxed or taxed less. Likewise, continued taxing or increases leads to the higher likelihood of a revolt.

Anyways, I was just pointing out a way for a corporation to take advantage of the scenario to their benefit given the information you provided. I wouldn't do it, but there are some greedy people out there.

Anyway, I think that Russians live happily in Londongrad, so not sure to what extend this problem may be overestimated.

Just pointing out examples. French and English get along decently despite all the enmity between them.

 

[Czcibor]

That's modern thinking.
In a non-modern society kids are your pension. You raise them to take care of you in your old age.

Know it, however stating that would be a unnecessarily unpopular policy. Instead merely demanding 100% prefunding of such programs, would sound just prudent, but in practice would mean killing almost all of such incentives.

In the situation you laid out humans would not be limited because new humans could be teleported in at any time. If you want to make it out that they can't be then you have to explain adherence to a government system and taxation that no longer exists. The point of these colonies are to make money and in general do it through taxing/resources being sent back. If they get cut off then residents would expect not to be sending resources back and they would expect not to be taxed or taxed less. Likewise, continued taxing or increases leads to the higher likelihood of a revolt.

Anyways, I was just pointing out a way for a corporation to take advantage of the scenario to their benefit given the information you provided. I wouldn't do it, but there are some greedy people out there.

I'm not sure whether I stated that explicitly - only short period of teleportation, after that - it fails. So such exploative business model would not work, because of running out of people too quickly.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Thread reopened. Can members please remain civil else the thread will be closed again, likewise factual claims are expected to be backed up when questioned.