History How will history judge President George W. Bush?

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The discussion centers on the historical judgment of President George W. Bush, with many participants asserting that he will be remembered primarily for the Iraq War, which is characterized as a significant foreign policy failure. Opinions vary on whether he is the worst president in U.S. history, with some arguing that his actions, particularly regarding executive privilege, debt accumulation, and domestic surveillance, have set dangerous precedents. Comparisons are made to past presidents, notably Richard Nixon, with some arguing that Nixon's administration was more damaging due to its secretive nature and the Watergate scandal. Others contend that Bush's initiation of war for personal reasons marks a more severe failure. The conversation reflects a broader concern about learning from history, with participants expressing skepticism about the American public's memory and attention span regarding past presidencies. Overall, the thread highlights deep divisions in the assessment of Bush's legacy and the implications of his presidency for future governance.
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The last time I asked this question on PF was a year and a half ago, I believe. It was suggested back then that I wait to post this until further along into his second term. Well, here we are: how will history judge President George W. Bush?
 
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Don't think he is important enough to have a place in history...yet.
 
He will be remembered for the greatest foreign policy disaster in U.S. history, and the terrible price paid for that blunder, for decades.
 
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Its still too early to tell.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
He will be remembered for the greatest foreign policy disaster in U.S. history, and the terrible price paid for that blunder, for decades.
I'll be around a while to remind folks.

Its still too early to tell.
No, it's not. Bush is the worst US president to date. Hopefully there won't be worse, but then we shouldn't underestimated the republicans and democrats.
 
trajan22 said:
Its still too early to tell.

Errr, huh? :confused:
 
There is a famous quote by a famous writer about Iraq:
There is the case of Iraq. I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. Perhaps we could not have avoided it — perhaps it was inevitable that we should come to be fighting the Iraqis — but I cannot understand it, and have never been able to get at the bottom of the origin of our antagonism to the Iraqis. I thought we should act as their protector — not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from Saddam's tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the Iraqis, a government according to Iraqi ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now — why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation.
...actually, I deliberately misquoted Mark Twain.

His real quote can be found here. Yet, Twain's quote is surprisingly parallel in structure and meaning to its modernized adaptation above.

Judging by how history has judged William McKinley/Theodore Roosevelt, in another 100 years we will have a new "worst president ever."
 
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Ivan Seeking said:
He will be remembered for the greatest foreign policy disaster in U.S. history, and the terrible price paid for that blunder, for decades.
Astronuc said:
No, it's not. Bush is the worst US president to date. Hopefully there won't be worse, but then we shouldn't underestimated the republicans and democrats.

I love how people who are old enough to remember the Vietnam war say such things. :rolleyes: If you guys really believe that - jeez, how short of an attention span do the American people have?

Bush is a bad President. He is. But he's only the second worst President of this century.

And last century, there were several that were worse. And the century before that, there was one that none of those is even in the same league as.
 
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russ_watters said:
Bush is a bad President. He is. But he's only the second worst President of this century.

And last century, there were several that were worse. And the century before that, there was one that none of those is even in the same league as.
I would like to know who those other presidents are. Particularly, which single president this century you think is worse than Bush. I personally can think of 3 potentials.
 
  • #10
You know, if you want to know how history will judge something. You should ask history. Thing is, you have to wait for him to get here yet. Anything else is just... pfft, predicting the future!
 
  • #11
Smurf said:
You know, if you want to know how history will judge something. You should ask history. Thing is, you have to wait for him to get here yet. Anything else is just... pfft, predicting the future!

The thing about history is that we are supposed to learn from it. We apparently haven't.

Based on history Bush is the worst president ever. We have never had a president so secretive. We have never had a president who has so totally and successfully hidden behind executive privilege. We have never had a president who has so blatantly bypassed the concept of checks and balances. We have never had a president who has driven the country so far in debt.

And let's face it, his judgement on selecting appointees has been dismal. I won't even go into his record on domestic surveillance except to say that he has shredded the constitution in Gonzales' paper shredder.

I am no big fan of Donald trump, but the Donald makes some points in this video.

 
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  • #12
He'll be remembered for what he is. A religious zealot without the intelligence or capability of being in the position he is in and of polarising the world, making it a much more dangerous place to live due to his reactionary and thoughtless actions.
 
  • #13
edward said:
The thing about history is that we are supposed to learn from it. We apparently haven't.

Based on history Bush is the worst president ever. We have never had a president so secretive. We have never had a president who has so totally and successfully hidden behind executive privilege. We have never had a president who has so blatantly bypassed the concept of checks and balances. We have never had a president who has driven the country so far in debt.

And let's face it, his judgement on selecting appointees has been dismal. I won't even go into his record on domestic surveillance except to say that he has shredded the constitution in Gonzales' paper shredder.

I am no big fan of Donald trump, but the Donald makes some points in this video.

Have you forgotten Nixon? There was so much hatred for Americans during the Nixon administration that I used my French Passeport while traveling abroad. My mother warned me and my sister not to speak English in public. In Paris there was grafitti everywhere like "Nixon Assasin". There was only one college student I met attending the Sorbonne that thought it was cool that I was American.
 
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  • #14
Evo said:
Have you forgotten Nixon? There was so much hatred for Americans during the Nixon administration that I used my French Passeport while traveling abroad. My mother warned me and my sister not to speak English in public. In Paris there was grafitti everywhere like "Nixon Assasin". There was only one college student I met attending the Sorbonne that thought it was cool that I was American.

We are still number one when it comes to being hated by foreign countries.

This pic was taken in Paris.

http://watch.windsofchange.net/pics/joc10506051916.france_bush_joc105.jpg
 
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  • #15
Smurf said:
I would like to know who those other presidents are. Particularly, which single president this century you think is worse than Bush. I personally can think of 3 potentials.
There was only one other President this century. :biggrin:
 
  • #16
edward said:
We are still number one when it comes to being hated by foreign countries.
Evo said:
Have you forgotten Nixon?
Humans have short attention spans. Bush is considered by many to be the worst ever because people can remember how bad he is. Except for those who were alive at the time, most people don't remember that Nixon was actually worse. And no one remembers the half dozen other contenders for the title. How about Polk? Johnson? Nixon? Kennedy? Harding? Hoover?
 
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  • #17
russ_watters said:
There was only one other President this century. :biggrin:

well... I'm an idiot. :smile::biggrin:
 
  • #18
edward said:
The thing about history is that we are supposed to learn from it. We apparently haven't.

Based on history Bush is the worst president ever. We have never had a president so secretive. We have never had a president who has so totally and successfully hidden behind executive privilege. We have never had a president who has so blatantly bypassed the concept of checks and balances. We have never had a president who has driven the country so far in debt.

And let's face it, his judgement on selecting appointees has been dismal. I won't even go into his record on domestic surveillance except to say that he has shredded the constitution in Gonzales' paper shredder.

As has been stated already look at Nixon with his "list" and his "plumbers". There was a much more fishy smell off that administration then Bush could ever create.

And lest not forget JFK. He was completely enamored with the hole spy culture and gave the CIA powers to do things that would make the current administrations running of the CIA look like a bunch of school boys playing in church. Plus remember the Cuban missile crisis, if it weren't for more level heads in his cabinet we would of gotten into a nuclear shooting war with the Russians. As for long wars that cost us greatly JFK got us into a little war in south Asia called Vietnam, a point and war most people seem to forget.

So no I think Bush will be seen in a better light in history then now with too many in the media suffering from BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome), and not being able to see anything in this administration that is good.
 
  • #19
Loren Booda said:
President George W. Bush?

Who?

....[/size][/color]
 
  • #20
russ_watters said:
Humans have short attention spans. Bush is considered by many to be the worst ever because people can remember how bad he is. Except for those who were alive at the time, most people don't remember that Nixon was actually worse. And no one remembers the half dozen other contenders for the title. How about Polk? Johnson? Nixon? Kennedy? Harding? Hoover?

Sorry Russ I CAN remember Nixon (in fact I VOTED for him), GWB is MUCH worst. Nixon did not start wars for personal reasons. He made mistakes, but his international policy was very good. What Positive can you find for GWB?

GWB, could well be the beginning of the end of the USA. We are spending ourselves into a hole from which there may be no exit. This with some major for-seeable difficulties ahead. I lay it all at the feet of GWB, May he rot in... well... where ever.
 
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  • #21
Well, for starters:

-the Do Not Call Registry
-and though the North Korea agreement is not yet a done deal, with the shutdown of the Yongbyon reactor, the Bush administration has already achieved more than many critics had predicted
 
  • #22
Integral said:
Sorry Russ I CAN remember Nixon (in fact I VOTED for him), GWB is MUCH worst. Nixon did not start wars for personal reasons. He made mistakes, but his international policy was very good. What Positive can you find for GWB?

GWB, could well be the beginning of the end of the USA. We are spending ourselves into a hole from which there may be no exit. This with some major for-seeable difficulties ahead. I lay it all at the feet of GWB, May he rot in... well... where ever.

Agree all the way---

In all of his unscripted talk, I have never heard any president use so many "I, me, my" - 's --EVER. He is overly self absorbed, self centered, and self righteous--and, lacks long term judgment and reason, AND acts for his own purposes, instead of the interest of America--"He (Saddam) tried to kill my Dad". The 'real' Bush is the Bush that was talking to Blair with his mouth full at the Paris meeting full of himself using a slur.

-------just listen to his unscripted talk for all the "I, me, my" 's that he uses.

He is absorbed in doing all he can for those that have helped him at the expense of others-his 'political capital'. One of his comments I remember is something like: "I've made a lot of money for the RNC"---which reads 'less government' (GOP lingo) means more of the businesses that helped donate cash get more government contracts--donate 40k and get a million dollar government contract--even if the bridge goes nowhere.


His lack of concern about spending has filtered down into Congress and local state and government offices. One comment I heard one congress woman say about earmarks: "Well, it was going to be spent anyway"-- in a totally "SO WHAT!" attitude. Did you hear about one federal office manager that was asked to bring back a 'bunch of goodies' (ipods, digital cameras, etc.) for all the office people with the new and improved (not checked for what is spent) federal credit card in the post 911 spending spree?

One blog I read four years ago said that his speech writers were to write easy 'worded' sentences and/or phrases of around seven words---and that is even noticeable today. He will say a short line, then stop, say another six or seven words, stop, think what if he said makes sense, then say another six or seven words, tilt his head, and wait for the applause (for not messing up any words)---this happens over and over during all of his speeches.--

If Bush had ANY conscience about what he has done, he should resign---and that's the bad part--he doesn't know or doesn't care.


(all that Nixon did wrong was to try to cover up someone ELSE's mistake after the incident)
 
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  • #23
If you want to hear roughly 30 "ums" or "uhs" in 68 seconds, watch this one.
 
  • #24
Futobingoro said:
If you want to hear roughly 30 "ums" or "uhs" in 68 seconds, watch this one.
No, don't. :smile:
 
  • #25
Futobingoro said:
If you want to hear roughly 30 "ums" or "uhs" in 68 seconds, watch this one.


and the bad part about that is that he seems more sincere in 68 seconds than I've seen Bush in 6 years (except maybe today when Bush almost cried when he said Rove was leaving at the end of the month)
 
  • #26
For those who have forgotten Nixon

- During the campaign five burglars were arrested on June 17, 1972 in the Democratic Party headquarters at the Watergate office complex. They were subsequently linked to the White House. This became one of a series of major scandals involving the Committee to Re-Elect the President (known as CRP, but referred to by his opponents as CREEP), including the White House enemies list and assorted "dirty tricks." The ensuing Watergate scandal exposed the corruption, illegality and deceit displayed by some of those within the Nixon Administration.[22]

Nixon himself downplayed the scandal as mere politics, but when his aides resigned in disgrace, Nixon's role in ordering an illegal cover-up came to light in the press, courts, and congressional investigations. Nixon owed back taxes,[23] had accepted illicit campaign contributions,[24] and had harassed opponents with executive agencies, wiretaps, and break-ins. In addition, he had ordered the secret bombing of Cambodia.[25] Unlike the tape recordings by earlier Presidents, his secret recordings of White House conversations were revealed and subpoenaed and showed details of his complicity in the cover-up.

Vietnam - However, a part of his strategy was the resumption of the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam should they violate the Peace agreement, which Nixon was confident they would. Watergate, however, made it impossible to carry this out. Nixon, along with his National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger also sought a 'decent interval' solution to the problem of South Vietnam, so that the country would survive for long enough for him not to be personally blamed for its ultimate collapse.

- Nixon ordered secret bombing campaigns in Cambodia in March 1969 (code-named Operation Menu) to destroy what was believed to be the headquarters of the National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam, and later escalated the conflict with secretly bombing Laos before Congress cut the funding for the conflict in Vietnam. Another goal of the bombings was to interdict the Ho Chi Minh trail that passed through Laos and Cambodia. In ordering the bombings, Nixon realized he would be extending an unpopular war as well as breaching Cambodia's stated neutrality.

- During deliberations over Nixon's impeachment, his unorthodox use of executive powers in ordering the bombings was considered as an article of impeachment, but the charge was dropped as not a violation of constitutional powers.

- In February 1972 Nixon grabbed the world's attention by himself going to China to have direct talks with Mao. During this visit he privately stated that he believed “There is one China, and Taiwan is a part of China.

- Nixon strongly supported General Yahya Khan of Pakistan during the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 despite widespread human rights violations against the Bengalis, particularly Hindus, by the Pakistan Army. Though Nixon claimed that his objective was to prevent a war, and safeguard Pakistan's interests (including the issue of refugees), in reality the U.S. President was fearful of an Indian invasion of West Pakistan that would lead to Indian domination of the sub-continent and strengthen the position of the Soviet Union, which had recently signed a Treaty of Friendship with India.

- President Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger downplayed reports of Pakistani genocide in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and risked a confrontation with Moscow to look tough.[10] Many, including Kissinger,[11] have mentioned that the foreign policy "tilt" towards Pakistan had more to do with Nixon's personal like for the dictator and the support to Pakistan was influenced by sentimental considerations and a long standing anti-Indian bias.

- The Nixon administration was also responsible for illegally providing military supplies to the Pakistani military despite Congressional objections,[13] and against American public opinion, which was concerned with the atrocities against East Pakistanis

- During the crisis Nixon was vocal in abusing the Prime Minister of India Indira Gandhi as an "old witch" in private conversations with Henry Kissinger, who is also recorded as making derogatory comments against Indians

- Some historians have argued that throughout the war, Nixon's handling of the 1973 oil crisis demonstrated that neither he nor Kissinger could truly grasp the importance of economic factors.[18]

- On October 10, 1973, Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned amidst charges of bribery, tax evasion and money laundering.

And then there's Watergate

- The term Watergate has come to encompass an array of illegal and secret activities undertaken by Nixon or his aides during his administration. Some of these began as early as 1969, when Nixon and Kissinger tapped the phones of numerous journalists and administration officials in an effort to stop internal administration information leaks to the press. Other major or well-known episodes of wrongdoing included the 1971 burglary of Dr. Lewis Fielding in search of the psychiatric records of Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers to the press; Nixon's order to have the FBI investigate CBS News reporter Daniel Schorr after he reported critically on the administration; and talk by Nixon's aide G. Gordon Liddy about having the newspaper columnist Jack Anderson assassinated.

These episodes did not come to light until several of Nixon's men were caught breaking into Democratic Party headquarters at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, DC in June 1972. In October 1972, The Washington Post reported that the FBI had determined Nixon's aides had spied on and sabotaged numerous Democratic presidential candidates as a part of the operations that led to the Watergate scandal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon

Oh yeah Bush is much worse. :rolleyes:
 
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  • #27
Evo said:
For those who have forgotten Nixon

Vietnam - However, a part of his strategy was the resumption of the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam should they violate the Peace agreement, which Nixon was confident they would. Watergate, however, made it impossible to carry this out. Nixon, along with his National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger also sought a 'decent interval' solution to the problem of South Vietnam, so that the country would survive for long enough for him not to be personally blamed for its ultimate collapse.

- Nixon ordered secret bombing campaigns in Cambodia in March 1969 (code-named Operation Menu) to destroy what was believed to be the headquarters of the National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam, and later escalated the conflict with secretly bombing Laos before Congress cut the funding for the conflict in Vietnam. Another goal of the bombings was to interdict the Ho Chi Minh trail that passed through Laos and Cambodia. In ordering the bombings, Nixon realized he would be extending an unpopular war as well as breaching Cambodia's stated neutrality.

- During deliberations over Nixon's impeachment, his unorthodox use of executive powers in ordering the bombings was considered as an article of impeachment, but the charge was dropped as not a violation of constitutional powers.

- In February 1972 Nixon grabbed the world's attention by himself going to China to have direct talks with Mao. During this visit he privately stated that he believed “There is one China, and Taiwan is a part of China.

- Nixon strongly supported General Yahya Khan of Pakistan during the Indo-Pakistan War of 1971 despite widespread human rights violations against the Bengalis, particularly Hindus, by the Pakistan Army. Though Nixon claimed that his objective was to prevent a war, and safeguard Pakistan's interests (including the issue of refugees), in reality the U.S. President was fearful of an Indian invasion of West Pakistan that would lead to Indian domination of the sub-continent and strengthen the position of the Soviet Union, which had recently signed a Treaty of Friendship with India.

- President Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger downplayed reports of Pakistani genocide in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and risked a confrontation with Moscow to look tough.[10] Many, including Kissinger,[11] have mentioned that the foreign policy "tilt" towards Pakistan had more to do with Nixon's personal like for the dictator and the support to Pakistan was influenced by sentimental considerations and a long standing anti-Indian bias.

- The Nixon administration was also responsible for illegally providing military supplies to the Pakistani military despite Congressional objections,[13] and against American public opinion, which was concerned with the atrocities against East Pakistanis

- During the crisis Nixon was vocal in abusing the Prime Minister of India Indira Gandhi as an "old witch" in private conversations with Henry Kissinger, who is also recorded as making derogatory comments against Indians

- Some historians have argued that throughout the war, Nixon's handling of the 1973 oil crisis demonstrated that neither he nor Kissinger could truly grasp the importance of economic factors.[18]

- On October 10, 1973, Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned amidst charges of bribery, tax evasion and money laundering.

And then there's Watergate

- The term Watergate has come to encompass an array of illegal and secret activities undertaken by Nixon or his aides during his administration. Some of these began as early as 1969, when Nixon and Kissinger tapped the phones of numerous journalists and administration officials in an effort to stop internal administration information leaks to the press. Other major or well-known episodes of wrongdoing included the 1971 burglary of Dr. Lewis Fielding in search of the psychiatric records of Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers to the press; Nixon's order to have the FBI investigate CBS News reporter Daniel Schorr after he reported critically on the administration; and talk by Nixon's aide G. Gordon Liddy about having the newspaper columnist Jack Anderson assassinated.

These episodes did not come to light until several of Nixon's men were caught breaking into Democratic Party headquarters at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, DC in June 1972. In October 1972, The Washington Post reported that the FBI had determined Nixon's aides had spied on and sabotaged numerous Democratic presidential candidates as a part of the operations that led to the Watergate scandal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon

Oh yeah Bush is much worse. :rolleyes:

Nixon was handed a dirty war, Bush STARTED a war. YES that is MUCH worse.
 
  • #28
Integral said:
Nixon was handed a dirty war, Bush STARTED a war. YES that is MUCH worse.
I disagree, Nixon was a criminal whose deeds caused a lot more death and destruction than Bush.

Tally deaths in the Iraq war under Bush and then tally deaths under Nixon in the Vietnam War. Tally the deaths in the genocide perpetrated by the Pakistanis he supported.

Iraq war current
As of Wednesday, 77 U.S. troops were killed in July, a striking drop from earlier this year when spring brought the worst three-month period for U.S. troop deaths since the war began: 104 in April, 126 in May and 101 in June.

Vietnam under Nixon
Over 500,000 troops were stationed in Vietnam; Americans killed in action averaged 1200 a month
 
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  • #29
Evo said:
I disagree, Nixon was a criminal whose deads caused a lot more death and destruction than Bush.

then do you think Lincoln is the very worst? During his term there were a lot more Americans killed.


Evo said:
Tally deaths in the Iraq war under Bush and then tally deaths under Nixon in the Vietnam War. Tally the deaths in the genocide perpetrated by the Pakistanis he supported.

There was something called SEATO at the time that Nixon took over---the closest thing to SEATO for Bush is EXXON.
 
  • #30
rewebster said:
then do you think Lincoln is the very worst? During his term there were a lot more Americans killed.
Was Lincoln a criminal? Did he extend the war to suit his own goals? Are you bringing up irrelevant issues to throw this thread off topic?
 
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  • #31
Evo said:
Was Lincoln a criminal?

According to Booth (and the CSA), he was.


Why do you think Bush doesn't want to join the World Court?

-------------------------------

I don't think I was the person that first brought up Nixon (or had a long post about him either)--
 
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  • #32
rewebster said:
Why do you think Bush doesn't want to join the World Court?
Because we stand behind our soldiers and don't subject our soldiers to the law of other countries. We have our own military courts.

The US isn't the only country to not sign and it's probably the only thing I agree with Bush on.
 
  • #33
Evo said:
Because we stand behind our soldiers and don't subject our soldiers to the law of other countries. We have our own military courts.

The US isn't the only country to not sign and it's probably the only thing I agree with Bush on.

I don't think the World Court would be as hard on Bush as they were on Milosevic, because of 911 mostly.

Maybe Bush will be a hair different, now, in that Karl (that guy who read and followed his own interpretation of marx--Das Kapital) isn't roving around--but it won't be enough to not look at him as an incompetent leader.
 
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  • #34
Bush may be incompetant as a President, but he's not the most criminally minded President we have had.
 
  • #35
Evo said:
Bush may be incompetent as a President, but he's not the most criminally minded President we have had.

I don't think all the cards have been shown yet though either.




I personally don't think he's smart enough to be "THE MOST criminally minded"
------------------------------------
maybe the most criminally least minded
----------------------------------------
(I like that video of him and the look on his face trying to open that locked door in China---makes me laugh every time)
---------------------------------------------

Bush has already bragged about breaking something like over 700 Laws of the United States of America.
 
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  • #36
Here, Cheney tells us how to remember Bush.


I once quoted the last comment made in this video as a signature. Soon after I received as very nasty pm from someone who said that he thought I was really a great guy until he saw this. Now one would think that he would take issue with Bush and Cheney, but instead he decided to hate me.

I think Bush [Rove machine] will also be remembered for dividing this nation as no one has since Jefferson Davis.
 
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  • #37
Pffft, tell him to shove off Ivan.
 
  • #38
youtube is great





at 1:07 and 2:02
 
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  • #39
Evo said:
Because we stand behind our soldiers and don't subject our soldiers to the law of other countries. We have our own military courts.

The US isn't the only country to not sign and it's probably the only thing I agree with Bush on.

countries that sign are subject to punitive action by the usa, so there are fewer countries signing then there otherwise would be.
 
  • #40
devil-fire said:
countries that sign are subject to punitive action by the usa, so there are fewer countries signing then there otherwise would be.
How many foreign soldiers occupy US lands?
 
  • #41
Evo said:
How many foreign soldiers occupy US lands?

how many US soldiers (and other undercover agents) are in how many different countries?
 
  • #42
rewebster said:
how many US soldiers (and other undercover agents) are in how many different countries?
No, devilfire made the comment
devilfire said:
countries that sign are subject to punitive action by the usa
Obviously that's a ludicrous statement considering that the US has troops all over the world. So, how many foreign troops occupy US territories that would be at the same risk?
 
  • #43
Evo said:
No, devilfire made the comment Obviously that's a ludicrous statement considering that the US has troops all over the world. So, how many foreign troops occupy US territories that would be at the same risk?

just pretend that devilfire asked instead of me


BTW--I like Waterhouse and most of the Pre-Raphaelites (including the initial PRB's paintings) and Morris --- and, that Rossetti, what a tortured soul.

http://www.jwwaterhouse.com/view.cfm?recordid=28

(the little insert of the painting on the upper right is nice in that way the water is moving)
 
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  • #44
russ_watters said:
Humans have short attention spans. Bush is considered by many to be the worst ever because people can remember how bad he is. Except for those who were alive at the time, most people don't remember that Nixon was actually worse. And no one remembers the half dozen other contenders for the title. How about Polk? Johnson? Nixon? Kennedy? Harding? Hoover?
Polk was a very effective President (not necessarily a good thing if you disagree with the Mexican-American war). He probably achieved more of his objectives than any other single term President.

Johnson was a very effective President, domestically. He's the one that turned Kennedy's dreams into reality. His only true failure was Viet Nam. A fairly big failure, but he failed at a war he inherited.

Nixon was a very effective President. He was also a criminal. How you weigh each affects how you judge Nixon, and being a criminal has to weigh pretty heavily - perhaps not quite enough to earn worst President when the entire picture is considered.

Hoover wasn't a very good President. He belongs more in the same category as Carter. Pretty smart, but not enough leadership ability to make anything they did work.

Kennedy was pretty bad in the competence department. At least the situations he made his mistakes in weren't as serious as the situations Bush made his mistakes in. Plus, Kennedy usually had an escape plan when his ideas went bad. Kennedy was also pretty lackluster in his efforts towards achieving a lot of more idealistic goals. If he hadn't been followed by Johnson, Kennedy wouldn't have any of the admiration he gets as a President.

You might have a case with Harding. He was easily as inept as Bush. However, just like a great President needs a crisis in history to be recognized as one of the greatest, an incompetent President needs a crisis to be recognized as the worst. Just like the crash and depression gives Hoover the nod over Carter's double digit inflation, failing in a post 9/11 world gives Bush the nod over Harding.
 
  • #46
The problem with defining the wrongs of the Bush presidency is that it is not just one thing or even one area where he did wrong or lied about. One needs to look at everything that the man has done over a period of years.

The link below is a small glimpse at just one area.

 
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  • #47
Notice how he conveniently excludes Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus.

You can read about it here.

Lincoln was criticized heavily, and for many of the same reasons Bush is today (i.e. mishandling of the war and trampling on civil liberties).

My 2 cents about Olbermann: he takes himself far too seriously. I have read comments about how he speaks as though he is wearing a powdered wig in some 17th century courtroom:

"You Sir, are a disgrace, and a travesty to the law abiding citizens of this commonwealth..."

I tend to agree with that characterization. I would not be suprised if many subscribe to his opinions only because of his eloquent and polished delivery, marked with strategic camera changes. He may be more refined and educated than most of the talking heads on television, but he is as much a cynic as any of them.
 
  • #48
Futobingoro said:
Notice how he conveniently excludes Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus.

Lincoln was faced with an domestic insurrection, Bush was not and is not.

My 2 cents about Olbermann: he takes himself far too seriously. I have read comments about how he speaks as though he is wearing a powdered wig in some 17th century courtroom:

I would imagine then that you prefer the speaking style of Rush Limbaugh.


I tend to agree with that characterization. I would not be suprised if many subscribe to his opinions only because of his eloquent and polished delivery, marked with strategic camera changes. He may be more refined and educated than most of the talking heads on television, but he is as much a cynic as any of them.

This sounds a bit like "kill the messenger" to me. Olberman is too eloquent so he should be disregarded!/B]:rolleyes:

There are many more sources online that one can choose from and they cover many more problematic areas of the Bush administration. I have a feeling that you would find a way to discredit all of them unless they are saying what you want to hear.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/
 
  • #49
Edward, Olbermann descibes habeas corpus as "that wellspring of protection from which all essential liberties flow." Surely Lincoln's suspension of that "wellspring of protection" (regardless of the circumstances) would be noteworthy enough to make Olbermann's history lesson, would it not? Is it not an example, as Olbermann said, of "a government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it claims to protect us from"?

Olbermann deliberately failed to mention the Lincoln example, as it would be likening Bush's policy to that of a "good" president. And even if he could have explained it away, it would have protracted his point. In any case, it is a glaring omission.

Indeed, the subsequent cases of Ex parte Merryman (1861) and Ex parte Milligan (1866) were relevant in the ruling of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (2004).

By the way, I do not watch/listen to any political personalities; I find they partake in sensationalism. In the case of Olbermann, and I am paraphrasing of course, "Fearmongers govern this country, run for the hills!"

I hope you see the irony.
 
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  • #50
I read about this quite awhile ago:

At one of the very first cabinet meetings, maybe the first, while all the Secretaries (defense, etc.) were getting organized, Bush's first main topic of interest wasn't National security, no child left behind (bad idea), immigration, etc.-----it was the great cheeseburgers that the White House chef made, and wanting to know if anyone else wanted one right now.


For that important time period before 911 and maybe too much of the other time, I think little bush thought he the president of the biggest frat house,-- the RNC (and the USA secondly). I don't know about anyone else, but every time I saw him 'sign' a bill, or did almost anything 'presidential'---he'd look up at the camera or audience with that goofy smile of his, and, its almost like he's thinking, 'I still can't believe the American people picked ME--just because I was my dad's son--and, oh yeah, and I have to keep mostly doing and saying what Rove and Cheney think is right--and oh yeah, I forgot, don't smile so much'.
 

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